Can someone explain the different "starts" in GT5.

[Azhur]

It's simply a game design decision. Allowing the players of a game additional customization of the game experience tends to sound good to players, but it fundamentally changes/breaks the challenges intended to be presented by the designer. I would say there is already a more than sufficient level of customization in the selection and tuning of cars for players to find an experience that they enjoy.

While rolling starts may be a result of technical limitations (although I only remember KY talking about framerate hiccups in rain starts, not 16 car standing starts), there is also a challenge factor. The gap to the lead car changes significantly between the different types of starts, which presents the player with a different challenge than a standing start. Since the AI is already fairly compliant with allowing the player to pass, it seems unnecessary to lessen the starting gap. To me, that seems more likely to be the reason for the choice of starts than technical issues.

As for qualifying, allowing qualifying for races shifts the focus completely to grid slot selection via qualifying and the race itself becomes largely superfluous. I have no desire to play a qualifying game, which is where the game ends up if qualifying is relevant. In addition, qualifying was so broken the last time it was in the GT series that i am just as happy to not have it in the game. Even if it means I can't pretend to be Vettel.

 

[mykem]

They should fix that with a better LoD system. Just convert the furthest cars to standards until you come up close.

Hmm.. I can see the complain piling up when people start complaining that the Premium cars they're racing against are now looking like Standards.

And it's not just visual- computation of the AIs also comes into effect.

 

[Tower Turn 13]

Right, so I hate rolling starts. One of the worst things PD patched was bringing it back (and the Ai!).

I like rolling starts, they're somewhat common it seems in motorsport. But PD did it oddly with single-file.

But why is the game so inconsistent. One make races in practise mode have standing starts, Aspec and Arcade have the rolling starts. If standing starts are still in the game then why on earth can PD not give us the choice. Can anyone derive any logical explanation for this? I'm trying different things to enjoy GT5 a bit more, and it's working, but then I just get this feeling of "WHY" every so often!!

I don't see how it makes the race any less enjoyable, unless you really enjoy the standing start peel-out bit. I guess standing start it's easier to lead the pack by turn one, but I don't call that fun. Having the option would be nice, though, for those who want it.

Regardless of the problems with standards, the lack of tracks etc PD could VASTLY improve the game for a LOT of people by implementing some simple changes and options. Can anyone explain why on earth PD are seemingly oblivious to this? Is it just a simple case of having the man power? But I wouldn't think that adding the option of Start type and then the extra options that Arcade gets (like Lap number, wet grip, damage etc etc) to Aspec would be THAT time consuming?

I actually just started a thread about this, but for online. The option would be nice all around.

If Pd would add those options (and maybe qualifying, but that may require more indepth work) then the game would be much better for those mainly playing offline.

Qualifying wouldn't take too much extra work. It already exists online. It would just require porting the gt4 system.

I'd also like the ability to pick what tyres the Ai uses too. And in a link to my other thread about custom search, add the ability to pick what cars the Ai uses by selecting a custom search term (i.e. from my other thread, "DTM" so you could do an arcade race against only other DTM cars). Just some thoughts.

But then couldn't you just put the ai on comfort hards and throw on super glue tires and run the gambit? In the end, though I'm in favor of more options rather than fewer.

 

[robbo6]

It's simply a game design decision. Allowing the players of a game additional customization of the game experience tends to sound good to players, but it fundamentally changes/breaks the challenges intended to be presented by the designer. I would say there is already a more than sufficient level of customization in the selection and tuning of cars for players to find an experience that they enjoy.

While rolling starts may be a result of technical limitations (although I only remember KY talking about framerate hiccups in rain starts, not 16 car standing starts), there is also a challenge factor. The gap to the lead car changes significantly between the different types of starts, which presents the player with a different challenge than a standing start. Since the AI is already fairly compliant with allowing the player to pass, it seems unnecessary to lessen the starting gap. To me, that seems more likely to be the reason for the choice of starts than technical issues.

As for qualifying, allowing qualifying for races shifts the focus completely to grid slot selection via qualifying and the race itself becomes largely superfluous. I have no desire to play a qualifying game, which is where the game ends up if qualifying is relevant. In addition, qualifying was so broken the last time it was in the GT series that i am just as happy to not have it in the game. Even if it means I can't pretend to be Vettel.

the single file rolling starts REDUCE the options for the player, the player has to have acar with sufficient power to catch the lead (or fastest car) before the end. This RESTRICTS choice. If there's a standing start then the player can choose a car tune/setup that is not so overpowering overall. Enabling closer racing. Don't presume that every person who wants qualifying wants to qualify on pole and destroy the opposition.

The challenge that GT5 presents us with is contrived and completely artificial and about as far removed from the whole point of motorsports as you can possibly get.

You do realise that no-one is suggesting that qualifying be mandatory!! I would like to presume that PD would have the brains to add a "skip qualifying" option or rather have the initial start order like normal...then have a qualifying button for those that want it and those that don't (or can't see how it would actually INCREASE challenge) can ignore it.

 

[robbo6]

I like rolling starts, they're somewhat common it seems in motorsport. But PD did it oddly with single-file.

I'd say that overall standing starts are more common, Pds starts are not only single file the SPREAD of the cars is completely wrong as well. I could handle the real style double file standing starts of LM, GT, US style races, just NOT this awful single file system that has no basis at all in reality.

I don't see how it makes the race any less enjoyable, unless you really enjoy the standing start peel-out bit. I guess standing start it's easier to lead the pack by turn one, but I don't call that fun. Having the option would be nice, though, for those who want it.

It makes the game less fun because it's unrealistic, has no basis in reality and is a contrived challenge. Don't presume that people want standing starts to make the game easier, like I say in the previous reply above, in conjunction with a qualifying system it would be a lot easier to find a car tune/setup that would give the player an excellent race despite the shortcomings of the Ai. And it would be adjustable so players of different skill levels could find the settings THEY want, rather than have PD arbitrarily set a challenge that is piss easy for some and hard as hell for others. Choices and options will make the game so much better.

I actually just started a thread about this, but for online. The option would be nice all around.

Every part of the game should have the same settings available. GT5s inconsistency is mind boggling for me.

Qualifying wouldn't take too much extra work. It already exists online. It would just require porting the gt4 system.

Exactly. I just wish someone in PD would read these forums.

But then couldn't you just put the ai on comfort hards and throw on super glue tires and run the gambit? In the end, though I'm in favor of more options rather than fewer.

Again you're presuming people will use this to make the game easier, the game is already as easy hell anyway!! I'd use it to INCREASE the tyres for the ai and maybe they wouldn't have just chronic corner speed.

 

[Cannabis604]

Fact is while GT claims to be the "real driving simulator", most of the time it is making us play a arcade game with some level of simulation. No proper racing at all...

I think they did a pretty good job of making a "real driving simulator", now if only they could start making a "real racing simulator"....

 

[robbo6]

I think they did a pretty good job of making a "real driving simulator", now if only they could start making a "real racing simulator"....

That is so true for offline, online sounds as if it's pretty good as long as you commit to a decent league or have enough friends.

Those most happy with the game seem to be those who mainly play online or are perfectly happy with hotlapping and the single make races and arcade races.

Those who are mainly interested in the Aspec career are those most disappointed.

 

[mr_serious]

The challenge that GT5 presents us with is contrived and completely artificial and about as far removed from the whole point of motorsports as you can possibly get.

I think they did a pretty good job of making a "real driving simulator", now if only they could start making a "real racing simulator"....

I agree and I find it amazing that so few people on this forum are bothered by this issue.

Unfortunately I don't think it will ever get fixed, not now & not in any future GT.

The main reason they took it out (qualifying and standing starts) is because with the current (apparently improved) AI there would be no challenge whatsoever to the player.

These 'technical' issues etc... just shouldn't be a problem if they had designed the game as a racing game from the start. The trouble is that PD don't consider the game or gameplay at all until the very end where what is possible is suddenly constrained by the over the top graphics.

There is lots of evidence of this - for instance having an RPG levelling system in a skill based game - there's only one reason for this. It is well known in the games industry that levelling systems and micro-rewards systems induce a kind of addiction in the player. If your user base gets focused on attaining levels they care much less about the gameplay.

If done correctly the enjoyment (reward) from a racing game should actually come from the racing itself not from the results. In real life only a minority of racing drivers are winners, many never win anything and yet they continue to compete because of the enjoyment of racing and the sweetness of those few if any victories.

Unfortunately GT has been moving steadily away from the realism aspect in all areas except for graphics and handling feel. The levelling system is a tacit admission that they are aiming at the mass market completionist, "everyone's a winner baby!" philosophy rather than at the traditionally niche market racing gamers.

From a business aspect I am sure it is the right decision to make (for them).

Unfortunately for those who like actually racing it means the only chance you have of getting a race in GT5 and probably any future GT is online only.

I have accepted that PD & I are on completely different philosophical paths now (although it was them that changed!)

I keep coming here hoping there'll be a miracle announcement of an update that removes the levelling system, provides tools to the players to simulate the racing scenarios they wish - whether that's blasting away the competition in a really easy mode (like now lol) or fighting for 15th place against F1 class AI

 

[ErikAndre71]

a lot of good stuff

You can also see it on the split time when racing, it only give you split time to the race leader, not the car in front of you or the car behind you. When racing online and fighting for 6th or 7th position the split time to the race leader isn't really that important. So it's like it's intended that you should win, not fight for positions.

 

[Azhur]

the single file rolling starts REDUCE the options for the player, the player has to have acar with sufficient power to catch the lead (or fastest car) before the end. This RESTRICTS choice. If there's a standing start then the player can choose a car tune/setup that is not so overpowering overall. Enabling closer racing. Don't presume that every person who wants qualifying wants to qualify on pole and destroy the opposition.

The challenge that GT5 presents us with is contrived and completely artificial and about as far removed from the whole point of motorsports as you can possibly get.

You do realise that no-one is suggesting that qualifying be mandatory!! I would like to presume that PD would have the brains to add a "skip qualifying" option or rather have the initial start order like normal...then have a qualifying button for those that want it and those that don't (or can't see how it would actually INCREASE challenge) can ignore it.

Well, you've managed to completely miss the point I was making. Yes, the way things are restricts options rather than adding options. Restrictions are absolutely essential to game design in order to make reaching the game's goals worthwhile. You are creating an artificial goal of close racing that the game does not present to you and becoming frustrated that the game doesn't accommodate your goal. This is not a problem with the game's design, it is a problem with the way you are approaching the game. I can see from your other posts that you realize that the online mode is where close racing is the goal, so I would suggest you concentrate on that mode since it matches up with your goals.

As for the challenges being artificial, this is true for any game, including motorsports. That said, GT is not attempting to replicate any form of motorsports while touching on many of them, so the challenges and goals are not going to be the same as whatever form of motorsports you enjoy. Gran Turismo has always been about the driving experience with the motorsports elements being secondary.

As for qualifying being mandatory or not, it doesn't matter either way. The presence of the option at all changes the challenges the game presents. This means the game either has to be completely redesigned to accomodate grid slot selection or the challenges become broken. It doesn't matter that you could use the option to make the game more difficult because that's incongruent with the goals of the game, which makes that possibility irrelevant as a game design concern.

 

[masterrawad]

[t]rolling starts. i always get left in the dust in online lobby rolling starts.

 

[seanneedscar]

[t]rolling starts. i always get left in the dust in online lobby rolling starts.

I have never in my life seen a rolling start in an online lobby

 

[robbo6]

Well, you've managed to completely miss the point I was making. Yes, the way things are restricts options rather than adding options. Restrictions are absolutely essential to game design in order to make reaching the game's goals worthwhile. You are creating an artificial goal of close racing that the game does not present to you and becoming frustrated that the game doesn't accommodate your goal. This is not a problem with the game's design, it is a problem with the way you are approaching the game. I can see from your other posts that you realize that the online mode is where close racing is the goal, so I would suggest you concentrate on that mode since it matches up with your goals.

As for the challenges being artificial, this is true for any game, including motorsports. That said, GT is not attempting to replicate any form of motorsports while touching on many of them, so the challenges and goals are not going to be the same as whatever form of motorsports you enjoy. Gran Turismo has always been about the driving experience with the motorsports elements being secondary.

As for qualifying being mandatory or not, it doesn't matter either way. The presence of the option at all changes the challenges the game presents. This means the game either has to be completely redesigned to accomodate grid slot selection or the challenges become broken. It doesn't matter that you could use the option to make the game more difficult because that's incongruent with the goals of the game, which makes that possibility irrelevant as a game design concern.

The ONLY game design that makes sense to me is replicating a real race weekend. I do realise that online is the place for close racing, but I can't do online for various reasons so I'd like it if GT5 could replicate the REALITY of motorsports as opposed to what it currently offers. Options for that reality would keep me happy, and those who prefer the current state of the game can just ignore qualifying and leaver single file rolling starts in. My way both of us are happy. Your way I'm unhappy