Can someone explain why a stock car is supposed to be fun ?

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"Stock Car" = PDs interpretation/attempted replication of what it should be.
I never put all of my eggs in one basket, too many variables at play.
I am sure they try to get it right most of the time.
If they don't, sometimes tuning might fix it.
 
Stock car driving with others is simply easier. Some would rather drive a large variety of cars, than a small number that are specifically tuned.

Using a stock car (with same car races) guarantees parity between the players. Some want to match wits with their friends in the same machine. And that machine might also not handle well. Or at all. But that's the challenge some like.

Tuning takes time. Some people want to do what they find fun...which is racing. As much as possible, with no lag-time in between. It comes down to personal preference.

Shockingly, different people have different ideas about what is fun.
 
While I enjoy driving race cars and stock cars, the allure of Gran Turismo for me has long been about the dramatic variety of licensed real cars, mainly the street cars. I love getting In a car virtually identical to my daily driver and pounding it around a track. I love seeing how much I can squeeze out of an econo-car. I love getting to drive a high-performance sports car I'll never afford. I love driving an interesting car from automotive history. I love running at a relaxed pace or pushing my performance lmits along with the car's. In short, I love the variety and challenge of getting to know and then to master(or not ;) ) a host of completely different cars.

I know some of the cars are less-than-accurate to the real thing, but many are fairly close and they are still unique. I also don't see too many realistic options when it comes to driving the types of cars I find in abundance in GT.

It's fun to take one and tune it to see how much better [on a track] you can make it than the original, or to try to make it much faster than the original, but I can't do that with more than a few of them because of time constraints so I often don't bother. Whatever car I choose to tune will generally wind up being difficult to fit into the PP levels people tend to run at, if not just plain slow for its PP at any level, so again I often just don't bother with more than a couple.

I find pushing a car to its limits great fun whether fast or slow, road-tuned or race-tuned or in between. A good clean race with closely-matched opponents is a blast whether in econoboxes, supercars, finely tuned cars or full-blown race cars. Sometimes the slower and/or less tuned races attract people who are a bit less antagonistic to one another as well, but by no means is that always the case.

There's also the fact that when it comes to serious racing and setup, GT is pretty mediocre at best. If I want to focus on setting up my cars to perfection and simulating high-end proper racing, I'm probably going to choose a different game(although finding one well-populated online can be an issue). For experiencing, driving and racing(at least online) a multitude of unique street cars however, GT is a wonderful thing, warts and all.

I do wish I could find more of these rooms with people running untuned and/or one-make races. I rarely found more than two or three(if I include shuffle) at any given time in GT5 and I've seen them even less frequently in GT6 in the few times I've been online. Many of them say tuning is restricted, but 9 out of 10 of those I join just have Nitous disabled.
 
Driving a car stock is ok, depending on the car of course and the track being driven. Some cars are just far to slow for some tracks and end up being very boring to drive. For example a 49 Beetle on Daytona Speedway would put you to sleep. That same car on the Kart space might be interesting.

I always drive the cars stock first and then modify them to suit. When I set up a lobby tuning is always allowed. I think mostly those who do not want to allow tuning are either 1: no good at tuning and/or 2: have had issues with people bringing in cars that were faster than what the rest of the group were driving.
 
It's a matter of taste. I'm for one sick of tuners and glad that there are more people playing with almost stock if not untouched cars. Makes me miss the good old days of shuffle races.

You can't really appreciate the difference of each car if you drop the biggest turbo, put a racing suspension or race tires on everything. That's killing the car's essence and just plain boring. "I'll drive my 900HP Supra with Race Suspension and tires, then my 900HP GT-R Black Edition with race suspension and tires, then my 900HP Skyline with race suspension and tires! Yuck, this car only makes 400hp.. Too SLOOOOW!" I'm being a bit biased, I know... not everyone is like this... sorry...

I don't care if I'm slower than everyone else. I don't play GT to compete, but because of my passion for cars. There is a charm on driving a stock machine that unfortunately not many can appreciate. Some cars I do agree that could be better, like some that have an incredible chassis but not enough power (like the Toyota 86 for example) and they can certainly be fixed without necessarily ruining their essence. Another example, like OP mentioned is the Shelby GT350. the stock setup in that car is absolutely awful. lowering the LSD settings, lifting the car and softening the suspension as much as you can improves that car immensely. But most cars are perfect how they are.
 
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I only drive stock cars in tuning prohibited races. I get more enjoyment from adapting my driving style to different cars than adapting cars to my driving style. I also really enjoy experiencing all the different characteristics and quirks of different cars and think it's one of the greatest things about the game that they're all so different. I also like knowing all the cars on the grid are evenly matched and think it makes organizing a race easier.

But I certainly don't think my way of enjoying the game is superior to anyone else's or think it's the only way to play the game. To each his own. The greatest part, despite all the flaws, is that there's so much to the game that everyone can enjoy it in their own way.

:cheers:
 
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I for one hope PD gives the online section an overhaul, we need more settings to use for limitations. For one I would love to have a stock room that only allows for suspension upgrades as this would allow people who like how a car handles but just want a little less lateral movement during cornering. Or an actual tire type lock, not a limit cap but you can run anything else below, that's just bad at least give a range that you can set i.e Comforts only(hard medium and soft), or sport hard only.

There are just so many ways to play the game, I have some mildly tuned cars as well. I have a Stingray '14 stock power and weight but with flat bottom for high speed stability as this car is fast for it's power, riding on I think custom wheels, I'll check but not sure I changed the suspension. Anyway this car is so awesome, my only gripe is PD didn't give an option to toss in a 6 speed gearbox, that 7 speed is beyond useless you nearly top out in 5 and 6 is clearly overdrive unless your drafting. I get up to 180mph down Conrod Straight at Mt. Panorama, my newest and favorite testing grounds. My literally bone stock R8 FSI V10 loves this course as well, I've got a tuned up Diablo GT2 '98 full weight reduction and race suspension everything else stock aside from Race Hard tires and GT3 suspension settings this car is a blast to drive, too bad it has only a 5 speed gear box but it's just too fun to tear around the course on it does get airborne down Mt. Panorama first straight though. Got to love the plethora of cars though, I haven't even bought the other cars yet.

Stock vehicles are fun, Goodwood really lets you feel that magic...that is one reason why I barely tune anything power wise, barreling along such a course in an Alpine 110s or that Lancia Stratos are such delicious treats. Stock is fun for people who enjoy the drive and appreciate a car in it's most natral state how the designers wanted. Enjoy that first to appreciate what it was before you change it. Which also ties into why I was happy PD removed permanent changes in tuning in GT, so I can always have a set up that is "bone stock"(wished they added aero parts to that too like Forza does). Sure the sense of speed isn't going to make your hair stand on end but one day it will get there but until then I'll enjoy the pants off this rig.
 
Simple, stock cars have lower limits that allow anyone to learn and have fun without requiring a lot of skill or investment on their part. Case in point attend a run of the mill autocross or rallycross event. There are a ton of cars there that can be considered quite pedestrian. Often some of those decimate far more competitive machines with a skilled driver at the wheel.
 
I too despise most stock cars, but if you are trying to compare two cars, stock is the easiest, Lots of people prefer to just get in and drive, spending their time racing and not tuning.
This I would say is part of it.
And probably a big part of it for a lot of people with limited time.

But also some of us enjoy just getting in different cars and having to drive the car as it is (not perfect and not customized to our personal driving style/flaws/attributes).
Some of us actually do enjoy racing cars that are not really ideal for racing. We enjoy those things about the cars!

You can also drive more variety of cars.
Like with tuning... at any given PP there are going to be the winner models. So then you're stuck with those if you want to win or do well.

With no tuning & spec racing, you can get to drive & race all sorts of cars that wouldn't be competitive in a tuning allowed situation.

And even in a 1-make allowing tuning... then it just turns into a tuning competition - which is fine if you like that, but you'd have to like that of course.
 
It's a matter of taste. I'm for one sick of tuners and glad that there are more people playing with almost stock if not untouched cars. Makes me miss the good old days of shuffle races.

You can't really appreciate the difference of each car if you drop the biggest turbo, put a racing suspension or race tires on everything. That's killing the car's essence and just plain boring. "I'll drive my 900HP Supra with Race Suspension and tires, then my 900HP GT-R Black Edition with race suspension and tires, then my 900HP Skyline with race suspension and tires! Yuck, this car only makes 400hp.. Too SLOOOOW!" I'm being a bit biased, I know... not everyone is like this... sorry...
Tuning is not about throwing on the biggest turbo, it is about tweaking the car to get the most out of it within a given set of parameters.

Example I love driving old muscle cars but the stock tranny in them is not geared high enough, just adding an adjustable tranny makes them much more competitive as they already have enough power to go faster just not enough gear, then you have the cars that are prone to oversteer/understeer which can be so much better with just a few suspension tweaks.

Stock racing is fine but it is never going to be as competitive as tuned racing unless everyone drives the same car. Tuning allows you to use a much wider selection of cars and be competitive with them.


I enjoy stock cars more.
It creates an equal battlefield so it comes down to driving skills.
This is only true if everyone is driving the same car and all have the same oil.
 
Gee, I don't know, the SCCA seems to be full of primarily stock cars in the thousands of track days they put on throughout the country every year.
Its funny you should mention SCCA as this year for the first time ~40 years, "Stock" classes have been reworked to allow the types of modifications I generally use, shocks, tires, wheels, etc.
This week, via Fastrack, the Solo Events Board released a proposal that would radically reshape what we now call Stock Class. The proposal includes changes to the allowances for tires, shocks, sway bars and wheels as well as new language to allow for camber adjustment and the disabling of traction and stability control. All totaled, the proposal includes 36 changes to the category, including changing the name from “Stock” to “Street” to be more reflective of the true nature of the class. The proposal represents the first rewrite of the category’s ruleset in 40 years and one of the largest proposals in the sport’s history. At its core, it comes down to a simple philosophy, autocrossing should be fun, and the SEB’s belief that, more than any single factor, stock class participation has declined because the current ruleset does not provide the allowances needed to make a modern car fun to autocross.

The proposal represents a meaningful change in the philosophy of the Board. Historically the SEB has strived for rules stability in the category. To that, if you look at the Stock Class rules from 1972 you will find the foundation of what we have today. Those rules included an allowance for any make of shock absorber, the substitution or addition of a front sway bar and substitution of any part of the exhaust beyond the manifold. Though there have been incremental advances in theses allowances, for the most part the foundation of shocks, a bar and exhaust has been constant since the early 70s.

These allowances were part of a larger set of rules intended to make stock cars more appropriate for autocross. The early ruleset also included catch cans, vents, upgrades to brake lines and the replacement of steering wheels and gas caps. The purpose was not to go faster, but rather to make cars of the era better suited for the sport. In effect, the rules were intended to address universal shortcomings in vehicle manufacturing. Over time, the allowances that did result in performance gains, such as balancing of engine parts and port matching have been removed. Others, such as “windshields may be folded” have remained.
Vehicles, on the other hand, have changed dramatically since 1972. It is hard to fathom that a 70’s era Civic was built by the same company as the modern version, much less that it is the same model. Newer cars are larger, heavier, safer, smarter and more comfortable than anything the 1972 SEB could have imagined. Still, like in the 70s, very few modern vehicles come off of the production line optimized for autocross. Most new cars do need some level of preparation to become a fun autocrosser. While there are things that can be done within the current rules to address these issues, the rules were simply not written with the challenges modern cars pose in mind.

It was from this foundation that the SEB took out a clean piece of paper and asked the question, “What should stock class be?” Before any specific allowances were discussed the board first considered the key elements of the category. First and foremost, the rules had to allow for dual-purpose cars. This meant that, unlike Street Touring where cars could be dual purpose but generally are not, the category rules had to encourage dual-purpose not just allow the possibility. The Board also determined that the category should provide a significant value. This does not mean that it should be built on cheap cars, but that competing in the category should provide a solid bang for the buck. The third foundation point of the category was that the rules should foster competition between as wide a range of vehicles as possible. Specifically, allowances should be considered that would overcome problems that are common in modern cars.

Above all else, the Board determined that autocrossing is something people do to have fun with cars. We have all heard statements to the effect of “come for the cars, stay for the people.” In the end, however, the fun element of driving the car has to be there for the sport to make sense. Simply put, particularly at the national level, autocrossing requires too much investment of time and money for it to be justifiable if it is not fun. It was this concept, more than any singular factor that the Board pointed to in determining the cause of the decline in Stock Class participation over the last 5 years. Stock Class cars changed, the rules did not evolve to reflect and as a result the category is not as much fun as it should be.

There is actually data to support this belief. 2007 was a banner year for Stock Class participation with 428 drivers competing in the category at Nationals. Since then the number has slid to 237 in 2012. Yet, all of the singular factors used to explain the decline of the category were present in 2007. While there was a Kumho car on the podium in Super Stock, the Hoosier A6 was the dominant tire in the category, remote reservoir shocks were legal, and there were four solid Street Touring classes to lure Stock Class competitors away (STS, STS2, STX and STU). But 2007 represents a shift. It was the beginning of the decline and the biggest changes between now and then have nothing to do with our rules.

Some will point to the economic downturn of 2008 as the root cause, and certainly it was a factor. But for the most part, National level competition on the whole has remained consistent over that time. However, the new car marketplace has seen major changes. In 2007 the groundwork was laid for all vehicles sold in the United States to have federally mandated stability control by 2012. That year 50% of new cars were sold with ESC systems standard. Vehicle safety, and as a result weight, was skyrocketing. CNN reported in 2007 that the number of airbags in a vehicle had replaced horsepower as the most important number to consumers when selecting a vehicle. The new MX-5 had just been released, larger in every dimension than the previous Miatas. The attitude toward suspension design and handling was also changing. In the years leading up to 2007 both BMW and Honda had redesigned the suspension of their sportiest cars to make them more stable and thus, more likely to understeer. Other manufactures were doing the same and part of this package was limiting front camber under load. This effectively reduced front grip so that a car would be less likely to spin and more likely to have a frontal impact, which the numerous airbags were best equipped to handle. These changes represent the biggest shift in automotive design and production since the initial Stock Class rules were written. In the 5 years since, every stock class has seen a decline. Even Super Stock is down over 35% from 2007.

It was with this perspective that the rewrite began. The Board agreed that the challenges of making a modern car fun to autocross could not be overcome with a true stock ruleset, and thus some level of allowances would be appropriated in the quest for fun cars to drive. These allowances needed to be affordable and constant with the concept of a dual-purpose car. The result is a new formula that included allowances to manage heavier vehicles, overcome electronic controls, and increase the value of the experience while staying true to the dual-purpose intention.

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The new allowances, set to take effect in 2014, address electronics, wheels and camber kits. 13.9.E specifically allows the disabling of Traction Control, Electronic Stability Control and Tire Pressure Monitoring Systems without limitations as to how. Changes to 13.4 allow a plus or minus 1 inch of change of diameter on wheels to ensure that all cars have greater access to “the tire to have.” 13.8.F and G provide allowances for camber. This allows tires to maintain better contact patches while cornering. The obvious benefit is increased tire life through reduced edge wear but the larger benefit is better handling at the limits and thus, more fun to drive.

Shocks and sway bars allowances are retained but there are tweaks to both. Shocks are limited to two adjustments without remote reservoirs, effective 2015. The Board felt it was important to allow competitors to control the suspension compliance of their vehicles but it should be done in a method most consistent with stock. At the same time, the SEB wanted to allow people who are currently using remote reservoir shocks time to adapt to the new rules, so they have proposed sun-setting the remote reservoir allowance in 2015, a year after the rest of the rules are proposed to go into effect. Disallowing remote reservoirs eliminates the need for drilling holes and keeps vehicles consistent with stock configuration. Under the proposal, sway bars would be allowed on both ends to help competitors manage the weight of vehicles.

The section likely to get the most attention in the proposal is 13.3, Tires. The proposal would set a 2014 treadwear minimum of 140 and a 2015 minimum of 200. Part of the logic behind this is reducing cost per run. Some will claim that testing and optimizing 200+ treadwear tires will be just as costly as current R-Compound tires. There will always be a faction of our sport that will invest heavily in achieving the greatest pace and it is possible that the treadwear limitations will not result in significant savings for them. However, for the average competitor, the per run cost of autocrossing would be greatly reduced with the higher treadwear ratings as the number of on pace competition runs a tire could produce would meaningfully increase.

There is more to the tire discussion than cost, though. While the high grip R-Compound tires are certainly fun, the Board is inclined to believe that they are not appropriate for the category. As these tires have evolved they have drifted further and further from “streetable” and now often carry “for racing purposes only” warnings. Cost aside, this is not consistent with the Board’s vision of dual-purpose. While some competitors will opt to drive on the street and compete on separate sets of tires no matter what, the opportunity to have dual-purpose tires would be far greater under the proposed rules.

The SEB does recognize that not everyone will be excited or even willing to give up the thrills that only R-Comp grip can produce. In an effort to give those participants a place to play, the Board is proposing a limited preparation ruleset for Street Prepared classes. This ruleset would allow vehicles prepared to the limit of the new proposal to compete in an appropriate Street Prepared class on R-Compounds. The limited preparation cars would run in a slower class than their SP classing. The SEB’s goal would be to place cars where they are competitive but do not become the car to have for the class.

In all of this the Board also decided it was time to move past the name Stock and adopt “Street,” as Stock was no longer reflective of the level of preparation in the category. This is not meant to imply that there is no place for true stock vehicles in autocross. In fact, the intention of the SEB is to highly encourage regions who have accommodated membership needs with indexed street tire classes to transition those classes into a home for true stock, or unmodified cars.

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This proposal is not about making it harder, or more expensive to compete at the National level. In fact, the opposite is the goal. By allowing competitors to add simple, generally inexpensive modifications, such as sway bars and camber kits, and by limiting the scope of shocks, the SEB is aiming for an affordable package that is easier on tires, more fun to drive and allows a greater number of cars to realistically and affordably participate in the category. If successful, we may see a resurgence of cars that have been written off in the past due to camber limitations alone -cars like the late model Volkswagen GTi, the WRX/STi and a wide variety of BMW products, all of which are not able to get enough camber to be attractive stock class cars under the current rules. The goal is to find the formula that unlocks the potential of these and other modern cars and to build a ruleset that makes sense both to current members and those we hope to attract in the future. And above all else, the goal is having fun with our cars.

If you would like to provide feedback to the SEB on this proposal, please do so at http://www.sebscca.com/.
 
For me, it is fun. I cant explain why...but just try race with friends with stock cars, but limit their settings to 1000Kg and 117hp. Any PP is fine.
that is pretty low power. I guess you guys don't want to go very fast ;)

While I do run some of the low powered cars [<100hp] I prefer to run in the 300-500hp range
 
When I race I want to win or lose based on my driving ability. I do not want to win or lose based on what tune I could find and if it is better that someone else's.
 
Talking about street cars. Every time I drive a stock car I'm like 'Hey this isn't really fun' .

So many rooms out there with tuning prohibited/Spec racing. Where have all the tuners gone to ?

So for suspension - (Most) road cars' stock setup are designed to clear speed bumps, clear concrete lips out of parking garages, pot holes, man hole covers, etc...why would you ever take a car that's tuned to putt around on public roads, with all that crazy suspension travel, onto a race surface? It makes no sense to me and the only answer I've gotten from anyone is 'It's fun because it's the same for everyone.'

Transmission - Who likes four speeds ? Almost every stock car race I've been in, regardless of how many gears the car has, you use four speeds (five sometimes if your lucky). How is this enjoyable ? Am I the only one that feels kinda sorry for non-tuners, because they have no idea what it's like to tune your transmission to almost top out at the end of the longest straight with a decent amount or draft ?

For LSD - Stock settings seem pretty bad for all cars. By saying that, I mean that tuning the LSD seems to reduce slippage. Wouldn't you want that ?

While I question what's up with these stock cars, I do understand the basis of running them. I understand you buy/ change oil / paint and you are done. You are ready to get on track. Add in tuning, and you could add in multiple hours of trial and error (mostly error) to find your best setup/pp/hp/weight/balance/etc for the car and the track your on. So i get that part, it's turn key -vs- time spent. Racers would rather spend all time on track, where tuners are OK with some % of time off track refining the car for each specific situation.

A lot of cars in GT5 got a bad rap because stock, they were garbage - and that kinda frustrated me - because (GT350R for example) with just a little suspension and LSD work, would turn said car (even stock hp/weight) into a nice little machine that was anything but a handful. (some might even say pleasant)

I'd like to see a stock hp/weight series start up that allows suspension/lsd/transmission tuning. Wouldn't that be a nice balance between the two ? Get the best of both worlds. Rant over flame away sorry in advance if i offended any stock hardcore'ers. To each his own. I don't hate you and I don't think my way is better, I just like my way better (as you do your way) so it's cool.

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Oh please 117hp is not low power...

Races from a couple weeks ago:

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Untuned

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untuned


Now THAT is low power. :lol:


Of course that's even low power by my standards.
But I race a lot of cars, in the 300-400pp range. Lots well under 100hp.
All untuned.

Fiat 500 races are a blast!


I feel that cars lose their dynamics when tuned in GT. Like they start to feel really stiff and unreal. On rails etc.
 
Yeah weeks ago me and friends are racing using 1000kg 117hp specs...some of us are using Honda FIT RS, 86 family etc...as long as it is not a race car (ex: Honda Motul Civic). Pretty intense...lol
 
When I race I want to win or lose based on my driving ability. I do not want to win or lose based on what tune I could find and if it is better that someone else's.

Which means everyone would have to be in the same car and there is no reason that car could not be a tuned car so long as everyone is using the same tune.

Even with a good unique tune you still have to drive, your tune could be better and you still loose or worse and still win. Part of the challenge is getting the car tuned to where you can do your best in it and then driving it that way.

When you limit everyone to a single car then you are only testing the driving ability in that car, some will do better in FF others in MR others in FR, AWD or RR, some like cars loose and others want them tight. If you allow different cars then the car comes into play as well all you are really doing is not allowing people to make any sort of change to suit there driving.
 
Everytime I've driven a tuned car, it grips so well and never misses a beat... It's horrible! There's no challenge in driving fast, no consequence for stuffing it up, and they feel like they're on rails. I prefer a car that will bite if you get out of line. The KTM X-Bow does that really nicely. So does the Porsche 906 (in GT Legends, a different game). I prefer a car that takes real skill to drive quickly, because that is what being a good driver is about. I've never driven a car that I prefer to drive after tuning.

What's next, you're going to say you don't like classic cars because they feel old? :lol:
 
Stock cars are amazing! Seriously, especially online, where its full of scrubs who barely know anything about cars or tuning. There is nothing better than the raw sound and driving character of an unaltered vehicle. I always hate it when I'm cruising on the unlicensed PS2 version Monaco track in my F40 and some scrub blazes past in a chrome Veyron with a race exhaust, so does everybody else :lol:
 
I definitely prefer driving stock. That way you have to learn how to handle each car's characteristics. E.g. if a car understeers a bit too much, you have to learn to handle that; if a car doesn't like you to touch the brakes when cornering, you have to learn to handle that, and so on...
I wonder if tuning a car is often about making every car handle almost the same - that it's about removing each car's individuality.
 
Which means everyone would have to be in the same car and there is no reason that car could not be a tuned car so long as everyone is using the same tune.

Even with a good unique tune you still have to drive, your tune could be better and you still loose or worse and still win. Part of the challenge is getting the car tuned to where you can do your best in it and then driving it that way.

When you limit everyone to a single car then you are only testing the driving ability in that car, some will do better in FF others in MR others in FR, AWD or RR, some like cars loose and others want them tight. If you allow different cars then the car comes into play as well all you are really doing is not allowing people to make any sort of change to suit there driving.

But even if everything was identical your only testing driving ability on that day at that specific time. And even then your only testing driving ability with each persons specific experiences. Racing is pointless right?
 
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