Can you use driving aids in a real life races

[latestgood]

Hi,

I play with my friend all the time. He sets his driving aids to the max (20,20,10) I told him that, his not going to gain any skill by doing that. He told me that his rpm dosen't go up property (real wheel spinning too much in the beginngin) and driving aids are used in real life races. Is this true? Do professional racers use driving aids? Is there too much driving aid?

 

[Blake]

It depends on the racing series. Most racing series do not allow traction control, but some do e.g. Formula 1. Though, generally they’ll run as much slip as possible to allow maximum power to reach the ground.

 

[Dave A]

Tell your freind that ASM slows you down in corners, set it 0, and that TCS slows your potential acceleration down too, TCS can be useful on more powerful cars, a setting of no more that 5 is needed though. ASM should always be at 0. To answer your question about driving aids in motorsport, Blake's pretty much covered it, it is used but only in certain types of racing. F1 cars for example have traction control, I don't think they allow TC in GT racing at all, it's not allowed in pretty much all touring cars. So generally it's not used. If you can race fast without TCS your a better driver than someone who can only race fast with it. But to set all the driver aids to the max is stupid, he'll only cripple his car's potential performance.

 

[Car_Guy]

If your racing your friend, he's simply helping you out.

It's sad that the liscence test designed to show you how all these driving aids help, prove the exact opposite.

The ASM has always been a pain, it slows you way down in corners, especially if you want to get on the power half ways through a turn, it will have none of it.

TCS is useful to a point, especially when using the contoller a little help to launch the car is always nice, but always have it set below 5 (and honestly i set it at 1) and that gives abotu the best results.

but whatever anyone likes to drive, is good for them.

Remeber that TCS, adn ASM systems are becomming more popluar on cars, even teh new vettes have them, and they help regualr drivers, but those systems work way better then GT4's

 

[Famine]

I play with my friend all the time. He sets his driving aids to the max (20,20,10) I told him that, his not going to gain any skill by doing that. He told me that his rpm dosen't go up property (real wheel spinning too much in the beginngin)

Give him a few notes. Tell him to go buy some talent.

and driving aids are used in real life races. Is this true? Do professional racers use driving aids? Is there too much driving aid?

To an extent, though I've never heard of anything close to GT's ASM system being used in professional racing.

An F1 driver needs traction control because 800hp+ going to the rear wheels means a $2 million crash and a bit of a neck ache. For a month. In all other (real life) cases, your right foot is your traction control. If you're just mashing buttons on a joypad...

 

[niky]

As a side note, TCS cannot successfully control wheelspin on some high-powered cars on simulation (road) tires without slowing you down a lot. The best way to race is with either a low TCS setting and throttle modulation, or throttle modulation alone.

I've started experimenting lately on the viability of ASM in racing in GT4. It helps just a little bit with unwieldy cars with little or no downforce on simulation tires if set below 5. But at these settings, the level of assist ASM gives you over the course of a lap is too erratic to rely upon. Higher ASM levels just make the car slower, no matter how you balance them.

 

[Wolfe]

ASM is actually rather simple -- it operates on the notion that "stability" is not turning. Turn ASM on, and any cornering motion will feel like trying to push a brick wall. Turn it off, and your car turns back into a car.

 

[Blake]

An F1 driver needs traction control because 800hp+ going to the rear wheels means a $2 million crash and a bit of a neck ache. For a month.

Bah, they got away with over 1,400BHP during qualifying in the turbo era—without traction control!

 

[gibus]

Actually I find the asm & tcs very very usefull on the speed 12. The car seems to be soo badly put into the game compared to what we see in real life.

 

[Mt. Lynx]

The Speed 12 is actually a nice car without the aids, if you are very gentle with your feet. ASM is utterly useless on all cars, with one exception; the Formula GT! A set of ASM 2/2 is actually useful on that car, but that is, so far, the only car I have tested that benefits from ASM. TCS is useful on highpowered cars, but a set above 5, as said earlier, will act as a brake instead of a helping hand. If I use it, I set it to 1 or 2, depending on car.

 

[niky]

ASM is actually rather simple -- it operates on the notion that "stability" is not turning. Turn ASM on, and any cornering motion will feel like trying to push a brick wall. Turn it off, and your car turns back into a car.

Yup... realize that... but in my quest to test as many cars as possible in stock tune, I've been trying to figure out what level of ASM best simulates stock DSC/PASM/ESC/CRAP...

It's very difficult, on some cars, even an ASM level of 1 seems to turn the car into a brick, even if all you add is a little ASM for understeer. But surprisingly, with a few cars, you can run more and still keep the car relatively quick... and it'll only kick in at certain moments when the car is obviously out of sorts.

In other words, if you drive smoothly, with scaled steering inputs, like in real life, it'll act like a real ESC/DSC. If you drive all ham-fisted, like most of us do , then all it'll do is kill your corner speeds.

But like I've said, when you've tuned it to feel right, the ASM is still too erratic to rely upon, and is mostly useless once you've started modifying the car or when using sports or racing tires. With high-powered cars on sim-tires, it's helpful, but a sort of toin-coss kind of help.

 

[Wolfe]

Yup... realize that... but in my quest to test as many cars as possible in stock tune, I've been trying to figure out what level of ASM best simulates stock DSC/PASM/ESC/CRAP...

It's very difficult, on some cars, even an ASM level of 1 seems to turn the car into a brick, even if all you add is a little ASM for understeer. But surprisingly, with a few cars, you can run more and still keep the car relatively quick... and it'll only kick in at certain moments when the car is obviously out of sorts.

In other words, if you drive smoothly, with scaled steering inputs, like in real life, it'll act like a real ESC/DSC. If you drive all ham-fisted, like most of us do , then all it'll do is kill your corner speeds.

But like I've said, when you've tuned it to feel right, the ASM is still too erratic to rely upon, and is mostly useless once you've started modifying the car or when using sports or racing tires. With high-powered cars on sim-tires, it's helpful, but a sort of toin-coss kind of help.

That's cool, but Porsche's PASM. And GT4's ASM don't even belong in the same sentence...

I've seen several instances where PASM actually helped a professional driver go faster than without PASM -- for example, in Best Motoring's test of the 996 Turbo.

 

[RenesisEvo]

Actually I find the asm & tcs very very usefull on the speed 12. The car seems to be soo badly put into the game compared to what we see in real life.

What do we see in real life?!?! There's only one road-going Speed 12 in existence!! (It's painted red and registered W123WBG and lives in the UK). I doubt many people get the chance to drive it and see how it compares to GT4. It does wheelspin in 3rd in real life - that much I do know! Hence why they TVR guy (Peter Wheeler?) decided not to have it built: just too powerful for the road.

Aids in real-life don't allow the genuinely good drivers to show their skills: almost every driver I've spoken to doesn't like ABS, for example. When racing you want the car to do what you want it to do, not what some box of tricks thinks you are trying to do. Aids are only for everyday people who think they can handle a 400bhp 2-ton Mercedes when in fact they probably couldn't catch a cold, never mind a slide, when things get a bit dramatic.

 

[Dave A]

It's W112 BHG, it also has far more downforce than the one in GT4 and more power. It's also capable of putting the power down without spinning the tyre's, but naturally if you hammer the throttle the tyre's WILL spin, even in 3rd as RenesisEvo pointed out and the car was puleld because it was too powerful for the road. Lastly, it's 0-60 time is quite slow for such a car, but this is all down to the car's differential, it uses the same differential as the GTS racers that appeared in the Powertour and they were set for rolling starts, not standing starts, so 0-6 only arrives in 3.5 seconds, with the right diff 60 could arrive a second earlier, but the owner said he doesn't want to turn the car into a dragster. It's the acceleration upto and over 100mph that's incredible. Finally, John Barker has driven the car, he's also driven McLaren F1's, Ferrari Enzo's, Lamborghini Murcielago's ect, he rated the Speed 12, 11 out of 5 he thought it was that good.

 

[RenesisEvo]

It's W112 BHG

That's the one!!! Wasn't too far off

 

[Niels]

It's W112 BHG, it also has far more downforce than the one in GT4 and more power. It's also capable of putting the power down without spinning the tyre's, but naturally if you hammer the throttle the tyre's WILL spin, even in 3rd as RenesisEvo pointed out and the car was puleld because it was too powerful for the road. Lastly, it's 0-60 time is quite slow for such a car, but this is all down to the car's differential, it uses the same differential as the GTS racers that appeared in the Powertour and they were set for rolling starts, not standing starts, so 0-6 only arrives in 3.5 seconds, with the right diff 60 could arrive a second earlier, but the owner said he doesn't want to turn the car into a dragster. It's the acceleration upto and over 100mph that's incredible. Finally, John Barker has driven the car, he's also driven McLaren F1's, Ferrari Enzo's, Lamborghini Murcielago's ect, he rated the Speed 12, 11 out of 5 he thought it was that good.

I thought 3,5 seconds was just very normal for high powered super cars right?
2,5 seconds is just....insane I always do a little imagination on how fast that would actually be.
I think you will have to apply extra support to your neck really
There's no point of producing such a car IMO either, there's a limit between an adrenaline rush and a crushed spine.

But anyway I will stop, I got offtopic

 

[Jim Prower]

I tend to just keep TCS and ASM at their stock settings unless the car is a dedicated drift car. they work fine, and, unless they're obviously slowing me down, I won't touch them.

most guys who run real race cars don't use Stability control, rulemakers say it could be programmed to slam on the brakes harder and faster than a human could ever pull off. however, TCS is used in F1, because the rulemakers can't find it!

Drag racers use a throttle stop, which is different than TCS, in that it restricts throttle opening automatically for a better launch, but for a set amount of time, not according to wheelspin (the sensors for which would be thrown off by the Flex-wall tires of a dragster anyway)

 

[Dave A]

I thought 3,5 seconds was just very normal for high powered super cars right?
2,5 seconds is just....insane I always do a little imagination on how fast that would actually be.
I think you will have to apply extra support to your neck really
There's no point of producing such a car IMO either, there's a limit between an adrenaline rush and a crushed spine.

But anyway I will stop, I got offtopic

3.5 is normal for a fast supercar, the Speed 12 has over 960bhp and weighs just over a tonne, it has a power to weight ratio of almost 1000bhp per tonne. For this car, 3.5 is relatively slow, 2.5 is what the 1880kg Bugatti Veyron achives, but on proper road tyre's I don't see anything really beating that, maybe by 0.1 of a second at best. And no, you wouldn't need to supply neck support, the Veyron can do, F1 drivers hit 60 faster and they don't need support for their neck from acceleration, the only reason they have neck support is because a track has more left's than right's or vice versa and the head constantly tilting one way under thoes forces could cause damage. I think the Speed 12 was truely marvelous creation, not only as a performance masterpiece but the whole effect the car had on peoples awareness of TVR. They proved that if they wanted to, they could beat the McLaren F1 and Ferrari F50 and it did the company wonders for sales of their other models. The Speed 12 is still being taken to certain car shows around the UK by it's owner. On topic, driving the Speed 12 in GT4 with the DFP, N3's and no ASM or TCS is a blast, hard, but a blast.

 

[Niels]

3.5 is normal for a fast supercar, the Speed 12 has over 960bhp and weighs just over a tonne, it has a power to weight ratio of almost 1000bhp per tonne. For this car, 3.5 is relatively slow, 2.5 is what the 1880kg Bugatti Veyron achives, but on proper road tyre's I don't see anything really beating that, maybe by 0.1 of a second at best. And no, you wouldn't need to supply neck support, the Veyron can do, F1 drivers hit 60 faster and they don't need support for their neck from acceleration, the only reason they have neck support is because a track has more left's than right's or vice versa and the head constantly tilting one way under thoes forces could cause damage. I think the Speed 12 was truely marvelous creation, not only as a performance masterpiece but the whole effect the car had on peoples awareness of TVR. They proved that if they wanted to, they could beat the McLaren F1 and Ferrari F50 and it did the company wonders for sales of their other models. The Speed 12 is still being taken to certain car shows around the UK by it's owner.

Pff...damn thats fast.
I kinda forgot this aint the normal 600 BHP supercar. This is one of the 2 1000BHP beasts

But still, having that kind of speed...
I mean look at it this way, imagine you buy your first supercar, you finally got the money or your friggin rich parents paid for it. Now if I would get such a supercar, and try to get to 60MPH as fast as possible, it would freak the hell out of me.

I dont think I would enjoy it and would more likely be intimidated by it. Cause numbers don't show what the EXPERIENCE is like.

I just dont really see the point of buying a car that can possibly go 0-60MPH in 2,5 if you can have it in 3,5 seconds as well I mean there is a price for going one extra second faster. The only purpose I see for it is marketing reasons for the company that made the car, nothing more, and for the racing car versions that might be developed out of it. And maybe just for the sake of saying your car can do 0-60 in 2,5 seconds.

 

[Dark Elite]

It's W112 BHG

You were closer, but by my findings the red one is actually W312 BHG...
Having said that, there's also another registered Speed 12 I found... W312 BFV (silver), this is the same in exterior design except for the lack of the 'TVR Cerbera Speed 12' stickers along the door sills.

As far as driving aids are concerned, I use a DS2 and all of the aids are always off, with no exceptions. At all. Ever.

Traction control is used in some race series, but I've never heard of any form of stability control being used in racing, largely because, as said, it slows you down in most cases.

DE

 

[Niels]

You were closer, but by my findings the red one is actually W312 BHG...
Having said that, there's also another registered Speed 12 I found... W312 BFV (silver), this is the same in exterior design except for the lack of the 'TVR Cerbera Speed 12' stickers along the door sills.

As far as driving aids are concerned, I use a DS2 and all of the aids are always off, with no exceptions. At all. Ever.

Traction control is used in some race series, but I've never heard of any form of stability control being used in racing, largely because, as said, it slows you down in most cases.

DE

WOW those things look beautifull!! It's soo much better if they're not pixelated (lol)!
I really like the silver one, the rear is just soo smooth, and just to see the car thats soo friggin fast. It's one cool thing. I understand you would buy that car instead of a Ferrari or something just for the looks.

 

[-Cheezman-]

Despite what the people say above (probably no real world experience), driving aids are REQUIRED on most road tracks for safety reason. I can't jump in a 800HP car and expect to be safe while doing 130mph before turns. Sure, not TCS ASM and ABS altogether, but ABS is required (it is considered a driving aid), and on most tracks, some sort of ASM is needed.

 

[Dave A]

You were closer, but by my findings the red one is actually W312 BHG...
Having said that, there's also another registered Speed 12 I found... W312 BFV (silver), this is the same in exterior design except for the lack of the 'TVR Cerbera Speed 12' stickers along the door sills.

Thoes are concepts that became donor cars for the GT racers TVR entered into the Powertour, I can assure you the only road registered TVR Cerbera Speed 12 around is W112 BHG, I know these things .

Though it doesn't look the same anymore since the GT racers ironically became the donor car for the current Cerbera Speed 12 which was built from the model in the picture.

This is how it looks now, but it's still W112 BHG and it's the only road registered speed 12 in existence.

 

[Niels]

You can actually recognize the 2 and BHG on the number plate even at this angle.

I love that TVR, thanks for the sweet pic

 

[Famine]

You were closer, but by my findings the red one is actually W312 BHG...
Having said that, there's also another registered Speed 12 I found... W312 BFV (silver), this is the same in exterior design except for the lack of the 'TVR Cerbera Speed 12' stickers along the door sills.

W312BHG
Manufacturer
Model
Body type MOTORCYCLE
Colour WHITE
Fuel type PETROL
Date manufactured 31 December 1999
Number of previous owners 5
Last owner change 25 October 2005

W312BFV
Manufacturer TVR
Model
Body type SPORTS
Colour SILVER
Fuel type PETROL
Date manufactured 10 March 2000
Number of previous owners 0
Last owner change 10 March 2000

W112BHG
Manufacturer TVR
Model
Body type SPORTS
Colour RED
Fuel type PETROL
Date manufactured 20 June 2000
Number of previous owners 0
Last owner change 20 June 2000

Despite what the people say above (probably no real world experience), driving aids are REQUIRED on all road tracks for safety reason.

Could you clarify this point since, as it stands, it is nonsense.

My car has no driving aids of the TCS/ASM variety, only ABS and PAS (neither of which are necessary). My brother's car, a road car built for track use has no driving aids of any variety - in fact it has no bodywork of any variety. We can both drive along to a track, pay our money and, talent permitting, drive round it all day, without anyone trying to install electronic aids in them.

Presumably this is some restriction applicable in the US - or specific states thereof - alone? Which, of course, begs the question, why claim that other people have "no real world experience" when you're referring to your domestic laws only? Or are you referring to specific vehicles or race licence restrictions?

 

[-Cheezman-]

I'm referring to real world experienced, because most people don't have real world racing experience, I admit, I have not driven a track car (not legal age yet), but when ever a family or friend is heading to a track event, I follow and learn. I find that about 80% of the members on these forums don't have a clue what they are talking about, they just Cut-Copy-and paste from websites. So yes, I am being a jerk in saying they have no experience, but when you post mis-information, you deserve it (not aimed toward you, just using "you" as an example to the reader).

Now on to my statement. What I mean to say, is most tracks require some sort of driving assistance while on their course, it does depend on your skill level, car, so on. If I have a stock Kia on the track, then, I won't need to meet any standards, if I have a supped up Ford GT, then they will probably want to check the car. Here in the states, you can sue any one for anything, in fact, drivers HAVE sued the track due to their own bad skills, so most tracks now try to avoid that by setting high safety levels (which do not take away from the overall driving experience, thankfully) with some sort of electronic or mechanical driving aid.

Also, my brother does own a Fox Body 5.0 road race Mustang (very powerful car), which on the track he is setting it up for, does not require any type of driving aid. But since he is hoping to drive it legally on the streets in the summer, he needed to put an adjustable TCS in it.

I don't know what you Brits drive, but it can't be that different from US Spec cars, besides where the driver seat is located!

 

[Famine]

In the UK - and most of the rest of the world - you can drive whatever you want to drive if you go to a track day.

There are restrictions placed on noise, it should be said, and it's unlikely you'll get anything which is clearly unroadworthy (in a defect way, rather than a not-road-legal way) out there, purely for everybody else's safety, but they won't try and install bizarre electronic aids in a car if they think it's a fast one. Take that TVR Speed 12 to the track and you can drive it just as it is - completely aid-free.

 

[Dave A]

Absolutely, 960+bhp, RWD, 975kg's (when I said it was just over a ton before I forgot it used to be, but the current bodywork is a lot lighter and they took the weight down to 975kg's) and absolutely no traction control, abs or even airbags, you can turn up at Brands, Donnington, Silverstone, Castle Combe, any track and all they'll ask you to do, is pay the fee. Daft US laws letting people sue a track for their poor driving, it's almost as bad as that woman who sued a microwave company because when she tried to dry the cat in the microwave, it killed the cat.

 

[Master_Yoda]

besides where the driver seat is located!

I know the standard place for the steering wheel is the left side, but it doesn't matter if it's on the left or right isde here in the US, there both legal, i've seen them around. (like old Jaguars, and Aston Martins) i have seen with right side steering.

 

[Dave A]

I don't know what you Brits drive, but it can't be that different from US Spec cars, besides where the driver seat is located!

You'd probably be suprised at how differnt the markets are, we see more TVR's than Mustang's let a lone Corvette's, and TVR's are only a daily sight if you live near somone that owns one or a dealership ect. We don't get Pontiac's, our Ford's are different, very few of them are the same cars or badged the same ect, like our Escort was a completely different car to the US Escort. It's a different market and the few decent US cars we get like the Vette are LHD only which straight away cripples thier sales. The average family cars wil be similar, but the markets for sports and perfomance cars if vastly different, were also not that into trucks, vehicles like the Lightening and similar trucks are a rare sight.