Cappuccino Cup 3: Pre-season Discussion and Registration

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Great feedback guys. đź‘Ť Ardvark puts the schedule in a good perspective, I don't think we have enough Euro drivers to constitute a major change like this and having an earlier race on Tuesday would make it hard for almost everyone in the U.S. to attend. I've considered a separate championship for the Euro/Aussie crowd but recently there hasn't been enough interest from that crowd to make it work. So instead I think I'm going to recruit a couple other hosts that I can have on standby in case my real-life interferes with my GTLife, that way I can keep the schedule as it was this past season.

Johnny brought up some good points about the tires and format. His comments "I also believe it's a very difficult car to tune on SS tires and much more difficult to drive and because of that, it keeps a lot of the more casual drivers away from the series on a regular basis" and "It's really disheartening to get bumped in the first couple of laps and have to run around alone towards the back of the pack by yourself for 25 minutes..." sum up my objectives perfectly and those are the situations I'm trying to remedy with the change to race hard tires and with a possible format change. I think between the tires and the 2-race format we would see much less of these scenario's which will hopefully lead to everybody having a more enjoyable time. I also want to make it more accessible to casual drivers so we can have higher regular participation because we all enjoy running with a larger pack. đź‘Ť

We had a small crowd last night but did some good running around Eiger on the race hard tires, I must say it was a real joy! I don't know that this track will ever be on the schedule but I thought it was a good one to test out the new tires on because it offers several different challenges (tight turns, sweeping turns, elevation change, camber change, bumps, jump). And yes, I still lost the back end a few times and had the inevitable understeer at times but overall it was much more enjoyable to drive. But as DSG said, that could just be because I haven't found the limits of these tires yet and wasn't pushing as hard. But I was within 1 second of Johnny/Yuri and historically he has been 1-2 seconds faster than me at most tracks so I think I was on a good pace.

Right now it seems like most are leaning towards the 2 equal length race format so I will start brainstorming on a points structure for that format. I really like the way our points played out this past season so I will stick to a fairly similar structure (best finish of the week counts towards points) with a couple bonus points tossed into the mix to help avoid any ties. I'm thinking 1 bonus point for pole and 1 for winning both events. I'd like to have one for fastest time of the week too but that may be tricky to figure out with essentially 6 races per week, might have to bust out the abacus. :dunce:
 
I like the idea of two races per session. Especially if, as Johnny say, you get bumped (or in my case, mess up) in one it doesn't completely ruin your evening. Plus, if you reverse the grid for the second race, it certainly mixes things up a bit.

On the TC question, could you allow it for one race and not the other? Or would that just be too complicated? Also, if you allow that, you run the risk of being asked to allow other driver aids.

Having a shorter 'sprint' race, in my (limited) experience, helps settle everyone and I've found the second race is so much more enjoyable and less error prone.
 
I'd suggest using fastest time of the week only as a tie breaker in the case that at the end of the season, there is a tie that needs to be broken, go back and figure it out at that point. Chances are you won't need it but so long as the times are recorded, it's always there as the ultimate tie breaker. If the tied drivers have the same number of fastest drives of the week, then the ultimate tie breaker would be the total of the times added together. Adding it in before the end of the season, negates it as a tie breaker and makes it just another point.

Another thing that wasn't mentioned was the overall championship vs. a nightly championship. I am in favour of one large championship with the best result each week counting, but I can see where some drivers would want just a nightly race to count..aka a Tuesday night championship...Friday night championship etc. I like the idea of the larger standings, more drivers to compete against etc.

As for TC, if we consider this a beginner series then I'd say that allowing TC would be fine. You don't have to use it, and I wouldn't, but if you're a new racer and struggling with grip, I don't see any problem with letting them enjoy their race more and help avoid spinning out. It won't improve laptimes, but it might help avoid on track incidents. Allow the racing line also for that matter. I'd draw the line there though. SRF turns it into an arcade game as do the rest of the aids.
 
Johnnypenso
I'd suggest using fastest time of the week only as a tie breaker in the case that at the end of the season, there is a tie that needs to be broken, go back and figure it out at that point. Chances are you won't need it but so long as the times are recorded, it's always there as the ultimate tie breaker. If the tied drivers have the same number of fastest drives of the week, then the ultimate tie breaker would be the total of the times added together. Adding it in before the end of the season, negates it as a tie breaker and makes it just another point.

Another thing that wasn't mentioned was the overall championship vs. a nightly championship. I am in favour of one large championship with the best result each week counting, but I can see where some drivers would want just a nightly race to count..aka a Tuesday night championship...Friday night championship etc. I like the idea of the larger standings, more drivers to compete against etc.
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For the tie-breaker, that's probably what I'll do. Since the results screen only shows me the winners overall time I think it could get complicated trying to figure out everybody's overall times and I don't want to do that every week. I'd rather just do it once at the end of the season (if necessary). A double-win for the night isn't guaranteed so there won't always be that bonus point which should help minimize the chance of a tie.

As for the nightly championship, are you talking about how we did the first season where each night had it's own points/champion? That worked out ok but was a little messy on my end, I really like the cumulative method with 1 championship spanning 3 nights. It's much easier to keep track of and it effectively allows people to compete against each other even if they aren't in the same race which I think is great! Now I just need to figure out the best way to figure the points over the 2 nightly races. I could award full points for both races and add them together to get a nightly winner (1st=25pts and 5th=18pts for total of 43pts) or I could take the average of their finishing position (1st and 5th would equal a 3rd place points finish). I think I like the second option better.

About the TC, I think I would allow it for both because I wouldn't expect many people to use it. I know the front half of the field would never use it so it would really just be there as an option for new-comers to help them keep the back end straight and thus have a more enjoyable race. People can ask to have other aids allowed but it would fall on deaf ears because I don't want any of others allowed and I think the majority here is in agreement on that. đź‘Ť I could allow the driving line but I think it actually does more harm than good and creates bad habits so I'd encourage everyone to stay away from it. I could allow it during practice but turn it off during qualifying in the race, that would be harmless I think.
 
I'd like to give the series another shot...

#7 Naptown25rs (NCemtB): Pink/Black Body, Green Wheels

Now that I'm done with school and have graduated, I'll have more time to put into practice and tuning. I feel that was my biggest downfall and it was discouraging running alone so far behind everyone else, hopefully the Race Hard tires will allow for a little more forgiveness in my lack of tuning knowledge/experience.

I also like the idea of doing two shorter races (with or without grid inversion) instead of one long race.
 
Wardez
There's the perfect compromise ; SS tires with TC allowed on?
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Great idea, I would agree. It would keep the diehard SS preferred drivers interested in the league, as well as bring more interest in from the drivers that found the car difficult to drive.

Is your RH tire decision made already though Stigshero? If not, perhaps a vote...
 
I won't be in this season due to time constraints however i'll still keep an eye on the thread and may take part in season 4 depending on school work. Can I just say that I recommend anyone considering joining this series to go for it and take part. There are no dirty drivers and a bunch of great people you can get to know so I strongly urge you all to join this. See you in season 4 hopefully!

Dan
 
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Naptown25rs
.....I'll have more time to put into practice and tuning. I feel that was my biggest downfall and it was discouraging running alone so far behind everyone else, hopefully the Race Hard tires will allow for a little more forgiveness in my lack of tuning knowledge/experience.
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That's what I'm hoping for! So far the people that prefer SS tires have said their ok with RH tires as long as we don't go to any higher than that so I think we're going to give the RH's a try and hopefully everyone will still enjoy the series. :)
 
VRracingfan
I won't be in this season due to time constraints however i'll still keep an eye on the thread and may take part in season 4 depending on school work. Can I just say that I recommend anyone considering joining this series to go for it and take part. There are no dirty drivers and a bunch of great people you can get to know so I strkngly urge you all to join this. See you in season 4 hopefully!

Dan
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Thanks for the kind words Dan. Battling with you for 25 straight laps at Autumn Ring Mini was one of my greatest memories from any of the Capp Cup seasons so I sure hope to see you on track again soon!
 
I see...Alot of words...Hope the time for the late race on tuesday dosen't change too much though..
 
phil bell
I see...Alot of words...Hope the time for the late race on tuesday dosen't change too much though..
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It's looking like we'll stick with last seasons schedule, 8:15pm EDT on Tuesday, 10pm EDT on Friday, 3pm EDT on Saturday.
 
#57 / Blind829 (Blind829): Black Body / Red Wheels
Tuesday Early (6:00pm EDT): Yes
Tuesday Late (8:30pm EDT): Yes (If Tuesday Early not available)
Friday: No
Saturday: No
Primary Points Race: Tuesday

Thanks for putting this on for another season Brandon đź‘Ť
 
Thanks Blind, good to have you back! I'll get everyone added to the registry soon. I'm going to add Saturday back in the mix so if you're good for Saturday let me know and I'll put you down.
 
I'm glad to see there hasn't been too much upheaval about the switch to race hard tires. I knew it wouldn't be the most popular choice with everybody but I think it will be good for the series. Really, my main goal for the switch is to attract/retain more drivers so we always have a good grid for the races. The past 2 seasons we've started with a large group but after a couple races it quickly dwindles and a lot of them PM me to ask about switching tires and when I say no they withdraw. Everyone expects the Capp will be a piece of cake to drive but as we've all learned it can be a frustrating little beast at times. I think that initial shock runs a lot of people off, I hope that adding just a bit more grip to the tires will help new-comers to get through that shock and stick it out for the rest of the season.

That being said, our little Cappy has a ton of character and I don't want to do anything to jeopardize that, so we will never move to the Race Medium or Race Soft tires. As Wardez so poetically said, too much grip and it suddenly feels like we're playing Need for Speed, I don't think any of us want that. I've done some testing this week on the RH tires and personally I find it way more enjoyable to drive and don't feel like I'm on the verge of catastrophe on every turn, even though catastrophe is still lying in wait it's not quite as ready to bite us. At least IMHO.

If the RH tires prove to do more harm than good to the series then I won't hesitate to switch back to the Sport Soft tires for the next season. I hope that by now everyone knows I always put the interests of the group before my own desires and when I see problems arise I try to react to them quickly. That's the main reason we run short 6 week seasons, we aren't locked into anything for a long period of time so if we discover something that doesn't work we aren't stuck with it for very long. So, have faith.

On a related note, JohnnyPenso/Yuritardid and myself are in the process of working out a collaboration with a prolific GTP Tuner so we can provide a good starting point/advice about tuning to new-comers or anybody that's struggling. The details are still in the works, but our hope is that by providing a good base tune and general advice it will help new Capp Head's get through the growing pains that come along with this caffeinated devil.

One last item of business, I'm going to be doing some testing on different tracks this evening so I can start getting the next schedule together. My plan so far is to have a custom oval, a custom road course, a couple of the "greatest hits" from the first 2 seasons (Tsukuba, Nurb GP/D, GVE-R, Cape Ring South, Clubman), as well as a return to Autumn Ring Mini but in Reverse fashion. Due to popular demand from a previous discussion, Suzuka East is guaranteed to make an appearance this season but that's the only one I have locked in so far. If anybody would be interested in running a bunch of short 5-6 lap races at some different tracks this evening just let me know. đź‘Ť
 
I'm interested. I tried to run this and the Lotus series recently, but had to all but drop out of those due to being so busy with work. Things have gotten back to normal, so I should be good for when this season starts.

So, when were you planning on starting? Can we use the same car from season 2? (I don't remember last season's specs...)
 
Same car, only spec that's changed is tires. We're going to give the Racing Hard tire a try for this season. Capp should be 137hp/590kg when fully prepped and broken-in.

I'm think the next season will start up in just under 3 weeks, probably September 20. I have a season pass to Mid-Ohio and the last race I'm going to (Grand-Am Finale) is on the 18th so I should have plenty of time for Cappuccino racing after that.
 
#5 / zer05ive (zer05ive): White / Red
Tuesday: (8:15pm EDT): sometimes
Friday: sometimes
Saturday: (10pm EDT) Race/Saturday: sometimes
Primary Points Race: Tuesday
 
StigsHero
  1. Custom oval
  2. Custom road course
  3. Tsukuba
  4. Nurburgring GP/D
  5. Grand Valley East / Reverse
  6. Cape Ring South
  7. Clubman Stage Route 5
  8. Autumn Ring Mini Reverse
  9. Suzuka East
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Wait! where's Laguna Seca!? noooooO!

Here's what I think:

1. It's pretty cool, a pretty good trademark of the series
2. Definitely, I think we should do a custom track contest where people submit tracks and we all vote on a favorite after trying them on a pre-determined test day in your lounge. I'd love for it to be something different, like a flat Mt. Aso track, or a good Toscana track. I'm kind of tired of Eifel.
3. Tsukuba would be just perfect.
4. So would this.
5. One of my favorite tracks ever, yes.
6. Meh, I'd rather do Cape Ring Inside, but it's fine.
7. I really don't like Clubman for the Capps, the straight makes it boring and there's just not enough there. I'd much rather run Madrid reverse, it would be a great fit for these cars. Monaco would also be an awesome track for the Capps. People were going three wide in WSGTC's GT300 class through parts of Monaco and the Capp's even smaller than that so it would just be a lot of fun, nothing to be scared about.
8. Autumn Ring Reverse đź‘Ť
9. Suzuka East would be cool... not amazing but just cool. Oh how I wish we could run Suzuka West course instead in GT5. It's just a huge facepalm trying to figure out why they didn't include it here when it should've been easy to implement. It's the track of choice for Spec Miatas in iRacing and just a brilliant small variant of the brilliant full course. They had it in GT3!

Also, Trial Mountain reverse, could be awesome. And I wouldn't mind running Nurburgring's 24 hour layout in these things either. Maybe five laps :D.
 
Great thoughts 'Dez. I did some running at tracks last night and think I might have come up with a couple great candidates that haven't been in the previous 2 Capp Cup Seasons.

Madrid Mini-Reverse đź‘Ť
Rome Reverse đź‘Ť

I ran some at Suzuka East and quite enjoyed it so I think that's a lock. I know the custom oval is a lock, but the custom road course is 50/50. I'm going to spend time this weekend trying to create a good road course track, I tinkered around at Mt. Aso last night but there are just some inherent flaws with that map (imo). It always has a roller-coaster front stretch preceded by a nasty, sharp, blind, uphill turn. Usually a ton of elevation change too. I saved one that I was somewhat satisfied with but not overly thrilled. I'll keep plugging away at it, but it could be replaced with another regular track.

I like doing something fun as the season finale so Monaco and Nord. 24hr could be candidates. I think both tracks are great fun in the Capp, so is la Sarthe. We raced at Laguna Seca last season and I try not to have the same track in back to back seasons so it will probably return for season 4. Trial Mountain is also on my list of possible candidates, maybe we can do some test races there tonight. :dopey: We attempted that track in the first season but on the SS tires it was too much of a handful and was abandoned, I bet it will be sweet on the RH tires though. :)

Anybody going to show up for some test races tonight? We can do a bunch of 5 lappers at several of the above tracks or we can try a demo 2-race format at Madrid Mini-R and Rome-R.
 
StigsHero
Anybody going to show up for some test races tonight? We can do a bunch of 5 lappers at several of the above tracks or we can try a demo 2-race format at Madrid Mini-R and Rome-R.
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I don't believe I have anything going this evening, I could serve as a guinea pig for the back markers... lol
 
I did up an awesome custom course just for the Cappy's last night Brandon. It's in share mode so take a peak at it. I think you'll like it.
 
Johnnypenso
I did up an awesome custom course just for the Cappy's last night Brandon. It's in share mode so take a peak at it. I think you'll like it.
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I'll check it out this evening. Which map is it on? Since the oval is going to be Toscana I think I'd like the other custom track to be from a different map, I've got an idea for a theme to this season. :)
 
Based on our little test session the other night, I think Monaco deserves some consideration for the schedule. Like Wardez, I'm not too enamoured with Clubman. If it's a choice between city circuits, my vote would definitely be Monaco over any version of Madrid.

It's on the Eifel Circuit. Of course it has a long front straight but on this track the entry is in 3rd gear, the first corner is wide open but barely and you have to use the entire track or you won't make the corner. Two guys trying to go side by side through there will have to slow considerably to make it, and lose time to following cars. Another straight followed by a technical section that includes a banked, 180 degree sweeper with a little bump in the middle to make it interesting. This banked sweeper is my favourite corner ever...lol. Makes the whole track worthwhile. Laptime was in the 1:34-1:35 range, slightly faster than Trial Mountain and maybe 10 seconds faster than Monaco for example. Only one corner that's slightly off camber over a bit of a rise, but it was easily drivable.
 
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Clubman was just a suggestion, I only got to run that track once this past season so I just kinda tossed it in there to get some opinions on it. It's interesting to see support for Monaco, I had it as the season finale for the first season and got so much negative feedback that I had to remove it. I think it's always great fun, but especially in the Capp's so it's a strong contender for the season finale track. I don't have any problem going to Monaco and Madrid Mini-R, yeah they're both city track but their almost polar opposites from each other, and then Rome is somewhere in the middle. Rome barely feels like a city track though because it's quite wide and has some nice sweeping, high-speed corners.

I think I've had a shift of intention with the tracks, instead of bringing in the "greatest hits" from the first 2 seasons I want to try to get some tracks that we haven't run yet. I like to stay at tracks that are ~2 miles, so we don't have a huge selection but I think I can come up with something unique for this season. :) I'm seeing quite an international flavor with the tracks I'm considering, so I'm thinking this season will be the Cappuccino Cup World Tour. :)
 
Personally I love clubman, I also have wouldnt mind seeing Grand Valley East or Laguan Seca, just my 2 cents
 
Torzilla
Personally I love clubman, I also have wouldnt mind seeing Grand Valley East or Laguan Seca, just my 2 cents
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I enjoyed Clubman quite a bit too, but since we just went there last season I won't duplicate it this season. Grand Valley East is just a spectacular track for these cars, in either direction. We went to the regular GVE this past season but we might be do for another trip back to GVE-R! Either configuration ranks right up there in my favorites.
 
sethfraz22
I'd probably come run some. In your lobby or online lobby?
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I usually run them in my lobby so we can keep the riff-raff out. Send me a friend request on PSN: BrandonW77. I'll post details here when I have it open, probably around 9pm EDT (GMT-4).
 
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