Car Behavior and Tire Temps after Patch 2.0PS4

[Jack Dulmage]

So patch 2.0 has been released and most of it for the better.

However, I have noticed that the car behavior (GT3's specifically) has been altered. The downshift protection obviously plays a part in this as braking zones have shifted, however i find that there is a lot of lift off over steer that i cannot tune out*, no matter what extremes i try. I believe it must be the differential but again i have tried many things, many extremes to try and get rid of it with no avail. The only "solution" that i have found is to heavily trail-break every corner. I also find that i cannot keep the tires warm or warm them up, even with the tire pressures set as low as possible, and at a normal track temperature.

Anyone have any recommendations or are having the same issues?

*I am a very adept tuner and a faster than average driver, well versed in sims... Just letting people know so they don't need to comment on simple tuning advice.

 

[Jack Dulmage]

One of the cars i noticed more than others is Audi R8 GT3 @ Longbeach

 

[F1Racer68]

With regards to the tires, forget everything you learned about them in pCARS1. Tire pressures no longer work the way they did in pCARS1, where lower pressure meant hotter temps. They now work much more realistically. As such, the tire pressure is far more critical than the displayed temperature.

Follow the guidelines I found in the attached documents from Michelin, Pirelli, and Hankook, and you will find success. I have done extensive testing in many conditions in game to verify that this works in game exactly as described in this real world document.

The goal should be to achieve 32 PSI in every track condition. This means your cool (ambient) temp pressures set in tuning setup need to be HIGHER than your warm (ambient) temp pressures. Remember that the pressure being set in the tuning setup is your COLD pressure, whereas the target is 32 PSI (2.2 BAR) at HOT pressure state. Cooler ambient temps means less heat generated, so the starting pressure needs to be higher to begin with (closer to 32PSI).

Using the above guidelines, I have achieved consistent 150F - 175F temps in all conditions. Note that Pirelli states that "Racing tires work best at high temperatures (122° - 176° Fahrenheit)". In my testing, this has been exactly correct, and has been where I have found the most grip.

NOTE: I race on the PC version, and all of my testing so far has been done in GTE class cars. The above has worked PERFECTLY for me every time.

 

[Corsa]

The goal should be to achieve 32 PSI in every track condition. This means your cool temp pressures set in tuning setup need to be HIGHER than your warm temp pressures. Remember that the pressure being set in the tuning setup is your COLD pressure, whereas the target is 32 PSI (2.2 BAR) at HOT pressure state. Cooler temps means less heat generated, so the starting pressure needs to be higher to begin with (closer to 32PSI).

If I read that correctly that leaves me confused.
You're saying increase pressure in tuning to aquire more heat on track?
Lower tire pressure generates more heat, what would your recommendation be on the NSX GT3 to achieve 32psi warm on track?

 

[Jack Dulmage]

With regards to the tires, forget everything you learned about them in pCARS1. Tire pressures no longer work the way they did in pCARS1, where lower pressure meant hotter temps. They now work much more realistically. As such, the tire pressure is far more critical than the displayed temperature.

Follow the guidelines I found in the attached documents from Michelin, Pirelli, and Hankook, and you will find success. I have done extensive testing in many conditions in game to verify that this works in game exactly as described in this real world document.

The goal should be to achieve 32 PSI in every track condition. This means your cool temp pressures set in tuning setup need to be HIGHER than your warm temp pressures. Remember that the pressure being set in the tuning setup is your COLD pressure, whereas the target is 32 PSI (2.2 BAR) at HOT pressure state. Cooler temps means less heat generated, so the starting pressure needs to be higher to begin with (closer to 32PSI).

Using the above guidelines, I have achieved consistent 150F - 175F temps in all conditions. Note that Pirelli states that "Racing tires work best at high temperatures (122° - 176° Fahrenheit)". In my testing, this has been exactly correct, and has been where I have found the most grip.

NOTE: I race on the PC version, and all of my testing so far has been done in GTE class cars. The above has worked PERFECTLY for me every time.

Awesome, thank you. Had i realized that the tire model was this realistic i would have had a lot less head aches... makes sense i suppose! No advice about the lift off over steer?

 

[F1Racer68]

Awesome, thank you. Had i realized that the tire model was this realistic i would have had a lot less head aches... makes sense i suppose! No advice about the lift off over steer?

Lift off oversteer, I would look at Differential as you already suspected, and perhaps Rear Slow rebound, and/or Front Slow Bump. You might be transferring weight forward to quickly.

If I read that correctly that leaves me confused.
You're saying increase pressure in tuning to aquire more heat on track?
Lower tire pressure generates more heat, what would your recommendation be on the NSX GT3 to achieve 32psi warm on track?

The proper tire heat will be achieved when the tire is at it's correct operating pressure (32 PSI). Pressure increases based on heat at a fixed rate. During cooler temperatures, you will get less heat generation, so therefor less pressure increase within the tire. As a result, your COLD pressures need to be higher during colder periods. It all comes down ot the size of the contact patch as shown below:

In order to generate maximum heat, you want to maximize the size of the contact patch. Over inflated results in only the middle being in contact with the ground, and under inflated results in only the outer edges being in contact. As a result, less heat generation and premature wear.

The Michelin document gives you all the details on the math involved (~0.7 PSI for every 10*F) Michelin also recommends 22PSI as a good general starting point. In cooler conditions you may have to start at 24 - 25 PSI cold. The key is to hit 32PSI HOT pressure regardless of the track conditions.

NOTE THAT THIS IS FOR RACING SLICKS (regardless of compound) Wet tires/Ice tires/Road tires will have different recommended pressures.

And one final note on tires..... It takes a MINIMUM of 4 laps before the tires start to see any proper heating/inflation. You need to run at least 5 - 10 laps to confirm your pressures/temps.

 

[Jack Dulmage]

Yeah i did try that, ill play around with it tn... maybe tires were still too cold as well causing the rears to break loose really early? Hard to tell with the odd FFB... Cant really feel how your sliding till your already past the point of no return... but thanks guys!

 

[twitcher]

Awesome, thank you. Had i realized that the tire model was this realistic i would have had a lot less head aches... makes sense i suppose! No advice about the lift off over steer?

Lift off oversteer at low speed is my biggiest issue in most cars as well. Best solution I've found is in the diff. Increase the preload, power, and coast ramps will make the car more stable. You then have to tweak all 3 individually so that you get the behaviour your looking for at the 3 parts of a corner. Coast is under braking, the preload is when you're off the pedals, and power is obviously when you get on the power at corner exit.

For many many cars in the game, I've found the diffs far too open for my liking. Also, I'm pretty sure the in-game discription is wrong - it says lowering diff values locks the diff more, adding stability, which is just not true. Test for yourself, but higher values lock the diff more, and add more stability.

 

[RvN76]

With regards to the tires, forget everything you learned about them in pCARS1. Tire pressures no longer work the way they did in pCARS1, where lower pressure meant hotter temps. They now work much more realistically. As such, the tire pressure is far more critical than the displayed temperature.

Follow the guidelines I found in the attached documents from Michelin, Pirelli, and Hankook, and you will find success. I have done extensive testing in many conditions in game to verify that this works in game exactly as described in this real world document.

The goal should be to achieve 32 PSI in every track condition. This means your cool temp pressures set in tuning setup need to be HIGHER than your warm temp pressures. Remember that the pressure being set in the tuning setup is your COLD pressure, whereas the target is 32 PSI (2.2 BAR) at HOT pressure state. Cooler temps means less heat generated, so the starting pressure needs to be higher to begin with (closer to 32PSI).

Using the above guidelines, I have achieved consistent 150F - 175F temps in all conditions. Note that Pirelli states that "Racing tires work best at high temperatures (122° - 176° Fahrenheit)". In my testing, this has been exactly correct, and has been where I have found the most grip.

NOTE: I race on the PC version, and all of my testing so far has been done in GTE class cars. The above has worked PERFECTLY for me every time.

Great note! But is it ONLY 176F for slicks? That's only about 80C I think? Mine usually run over 90C. Is this is just for GT(1/E/3) classes?

 

[Jack Dulmage]

Lift off oversteer a track low speed is my biggiest issue in most cars a small well. Best solution I've found is in the diff. Increase the preload, power, and coast ramps will make the car more stable. You then have to tweak all 3 individually so that you get the behaviour your looking for at the 3 parts of a corner. Coast is under braking, the preload is when your off the pedals, and power is obviously when you get on the power at corner exit.

For many many cars in the game, I've found the diffs far too open for my liking. Also, I'm pretty sure in the game discription is wrongness - it says lowering diff values locks the diff more, adding stability, which is just not true. Test for yourself, but higher values lock the diff more, and and more stability.

Yeah i did all of this, fooled with the diff first as that's what you would assume is the issue. No matter what "extreme" i try (coast maxed out) i still get the same lift off over-steer.

I will try the tire pressure changes and see what happens

 

[RvN76]

If I read that correctly that leaves me confused.
You're saying increase pressure in tuning to aquire more heat on track?
Lower tire pressure generates more heat, what would your recommendation be on the NSX GT3 to achieve 32psi warm on track?

I think what he means is you should expect 32PSI when your tires get "warm". But the definition of "warm" changes according to ambient temps. You shouldn't expect the SAME 32 PSI at the SAME temp when ambient temp is cooler. With cooler ambient temp you'll get a lower "warm" temp so the gap between "low" and "high" tire temps is smaller, which means you should start with a higher cool pressure.

 

[F1Racer68]

I think what he means is you should expect 32PSI when your tires get "warm". But the definition of "warm" changes according to ambient temps. You shouldn't expect the SAME 32 PSI at the SAME temp when ambient temp is cooler. With cooler ambient temp you'll get a lower "warm" temp so the gap between "low" and "high" tire temps is smaller, which means you should start with a higher cool pressure.

Exactly. Updated my second post to try to clarify that as well.

EDIT: I also updated my originally post to try to clarify where I am referring to Ambient (air) temperatures rather than Tire temperatures. I realized that it may have been a bit confusing.

 

[Zenzic]

Thanks for linking to those guides, F1Racer68! Here's some more info I found useful:

On working pressures: https://www.pirelli.com/tires/en-us/motorsport/all-tires/products-sheet/slick (Scroll down and click "working pressures")

Overview of Pirelli tire compounds and their characteristics:

 

[paulpg87]

Wow, this community is amazing guys.
I'm having severe issue in properly heating up tyres when it is super cold.

However i do no get why in the tuning descrption the game tells you to lower tyres pressure to increase temperature.

Moreover i have tuning in bar and tyres icon in the hud in psi.

 

[F1Racer68]

Wow, this community is amazing guys.
I'm having severe issue in properly heating up tyres when it is super cold.

However i do no get why in the tuning descrption the game tells you to lower tyres pressure to increase temperature.

Moreover i have tuning in bar and tyres icon in the hud in psi.

Yep, I think we all have that. There are downloadable charts that you can print off, or just use an online converter like this one.

https://www.convertunits.com/from/psi/to/bar

 

[crowhop]

With regards to the tires, forget everything you learned about them in pCARS1. Tire pressures no longer work the way they did in pCARS1, where lower pressure meant hotter temps. They now work much more realistically. As such, the tire pressure is far more critical than the displayed temperature.

Follow the guidelines I found in the attached documents from Michelin, Pirelli, and Hankook, and you will find success. I have done extensive testing in many conditions in game to verify that this works in game exactly as described in this real world document.

The goal should be to achieve 32 PSI in every track condition. This means your cool (ambient) temp pressures set in tuning setup need to be HIGHER than your warm (ambient) temp pressures. Remember that the pressure being set in the tuning setup is your COLD pressure, whereas the target is 32 PSI (2.2 BAR) at HOT pressure state. Cooler ambient temps means less heat generated, so the starting pressure needs to be higher to begin with (closer to 32PSI).

Using the above guidelines, I have achieved consistent 150F - 175F temps in all conditions. Note that Pirelli states that "Racing tires work best at high temperatures (122° - 176° Fahrenheit)". In my testing, this has been exactly correct, and has been where I have found the most grip.

NOTE: I race on the PC version, and all of my testing so far has been done in GTE class cars. The above has worked PERFECTLY for me every time.

Invaluable information! Thanks for the spoon!

 

[BrandonW77]

However i do no get why in the tuning descrption the game tells you to lower tyres pressure to increase temperature.

Isn't that the generally held understanding? Lower pressures allows the rubber to flex more which generates more heat in the tires, it also has a larger contact patch. Higher pressures do not allow much flex so not as much heat is built up, and also a smaller contact patch.

 

[F1Racer68]

Isn't that the generally held understanding? Lower pressures allows the rubber to flex more which generates more heat in the tires, it also has a larger contact patch. Higher pressures do not allow much flex so not as much heat is built up, and also a smaller contact patch.

That is true to a point, but the "range" of "Higher" and "Lower" pressures is 1 - 2 PSI, not 4 -5 like we had gotten used to in pCARS1.

 

[twitcher]

Isn't that the generally held understanding? Lower pressures allows the rubber to flex more which generates more heat in the tires, it also has a larger contact patch. Higher pressures do not allow much flex so not as much heat is built up, and also a smaller contact patch.

THis is all true, but it's not the entire story.

Temperature and pressure and directly related (and inversely related to volume). If you have a container of volume X, as you increase pressure, temperate will go up. As you decrease pressure, temp goes down. It's why a bike pump gets hot when you use it, and why an aerosol can gets cold when you spray it.

Also mixed into the equation is relative ambient and track temps, and also how much the tire is sliding on the surface, as the friction from sliding can cause excess energy buildup in the tire.

 

[NLxAROSA]

Some of the posts in this thread are pure gold. 👍 We should organize it in a guide or something like that. Same for the cars, especially the ones that require a different driving style. Questions about these topics will keep popping up.

 

[fasj6418]

This is a very interesting thread indeed.

Some cars that feel "broken" like the Diablo GTR probably need a little tweaking in this area.

I´m still flirting with the old lower pressure always mantra from a bunch of other games, but i´ll do some tests tonight trying to get to 32 psi to see what happens.

 

[OooAhh Cantona]

Um, can I replace my in-game Race Engineer with @F1Racer68? 💡

 

[BrandonW77]

THis is all true, but it's not the entire story.

Temperature and pressure and directly related (and inversely related to volume). If you have a container of volume X, as you increase pressure, temperate will go up. As you decrease pressure, temp goes down. It's why a bike pump gets hot when you use it, and why an aerosol can gets cold when you spray it.

Also mixed into the equation is relative ambient and track temps, and also how much the tire is sliding on the surface, as the friction from sliding can cause excess energy buildup in the tire.

That's fine and good but it's generally accepted that when it comes to racing you decrease pressure to increase temps. Lower pressure allows the rubber to flex more which causes temperatures to increase. Obviously you can go too far in either direction and get unwanted effects, but the tuning screen description is correct in saying that lowering pressures will increase temps which was all I was commenting on.

 

[AbeWoz]

With regards to the tires, forget everything you learned about them in pCARS1. Tire pressures no longer work the way they did in pCARS1, where lower pressure meant hotter temps. They now work much more realistically. As such, the tire pressure is far more critical than the displayed temperature.

Follow the guidelines I found in the attached documents from Michelin, Pirelli, and Hankook, and you will find success. I have done extensive testing in many conditions in game to verify that this works in game exactly as described in this real world document.

The goal should be to achieve 32 PSI in every track condition. This means your cool (ambient) temp pressures set in tuning setup need to be HIGHER than your warm (ambient) temp pressures. Remember that the pressure being set in the tuning setup is your COLD pressure, whereas the target is 32 PSI (2.2 BAR) at HOT pressure state. Cooler ambient temps means less heat generated, so the starting pressure needs to be higher to begin with (closer to 32PSI).

Using the above guidelines, I have achieved consistent 150F - 175F temps in all conditions. Note that Pirelli states that "Racing tires work best at high temperatures (122° - 176° Fahrenheit)". In my testing, this has been exactly correct, and has been where I have found the most grip.

NOTE: I race on the PC version, and all of my testing so far has been done in GTE class cars. The above has worked PERFECTLY for me every time.

Just a heads up, your Pirelli doc attached is for bike tires.
but 1.9-2.2 bar is 'optimum' according to Pirelli's website.

 

[F1Racer68]

Um, can I replace my in-game Race Engineer with @F1Racer68? 💡

The in-game one is cheaper

 

[Wayne Kerr]

That's fine and good but it's generally accepted that when it comes to racing you decrease pressure to increase temps. Lower pressure allows the rubber to flex more which causes temperatures to increase. Obviously you can go too far in either direction and get unwanted effects, but the tuning screen description is correct in saying that lowering pressures will increase temps which was all I was commenting on.

generally accepted by whom, and from whom did you get this info?

past three seasons I've ran three different brands of slicks. Michelin, Yokohama, Pirelli. All cars have tpms and i have guys working with me (along with the guys sent by the tire company) to take tread temp with a probe pyrometer.

the programs I work on go through about 30 sets of slicks a season. Not an obscene amount, but spread over 2-3 programs for 3 seasons, the population size is decent.

Not once using those three brand of tires have I lower the pressure to get the tread temp that I wanted, out of those three brands. I'm not saying that is universal, but the pressure - temperature relationship is something I try to get a handle on inside the first or second test day.

According to your logic, teams would run a lower pressure to start a shortened quali session. I've never heard that before in my years involved in pro-level racing.

Here's the thing. "Telling" and "knowing" are two different things. IRL, we have the luxury of having data aq / telemetry to tell us whether something is working or not. in Pcars 2 so far, we don't have that luxury. We have the driver's senses in telling us what works or what doesn't, but the driver is probably IMO the biggest variable when it comes to deciphering handling. Unless you have a xy plot of temp (or pressure) vs G, you're never going to find otu what the optimum range is.

Michelin might tell me recommended is 28, but is the 28 to cover their ass because lower will risk delam? Or is 28 the pressure that gives the tires least shelf live so I have to get mroe tires or what? You don't know until you test and measure.

 

[F1Racer68]

Just a heads up, your Pirelli doc attached is for bike tires.
but 1.9-2.2 bar is 'optimum' according to Pirelli's website.

Whoops! Thanks! I guess I uploaded the wrong one

From the Pirelli website though, there is this info:

"WORKING PRESSURES
Working pressure values depend on the size of the tyre in relation to the load that it is subjected to. In other words, the pressure will vary according to the type of vehicle, its weight, the position of the engine, the aerodynamics and the conditions of use. As the weight of the vehicle, the aerodynamic load, speed and acceleration that the tyre is subjected to increase, the working pressure must be increased. Generally speaking, “heated up” working pressures vary from 1.9 to 2.2 bar for GT cars and 2.0 to 2.5 bar for tourism cars. Initial inflation pressures vary in order to obtain these values, depending on whether the tyres are preheated or used “cold”. "

https://www.pirelli.com/tyres/en-ww/motorsport/all-tyres/products-sheet/slick

 

[paulpg87]

I tried in the second race of the GT5 Championship. During practice at snetterton the temp is 10c.

Test 1. Started with default set-up. Only front left heat-up to green status al the other belle optimal temperature. Front reached 27psi rear 24.

Test 2. All 4 tyres pressure sharply down. Temperature result is the same After 4 laps with 22psi front 19 rear. No difference from test1.

Test3. Raised pressure up to 24-25 bar to start. At the end of 4 laps reached 31 psi front and 30 back. No difference in temperature.

I don't know, in my opinion for this car at least changes don't any difference.

Bah..i'm a real noob.

 

[RomKnight]

In v8sc they were damaging tyres not long ago by using too low pressures.
The organisation or was it Dunlop said, that's enough and now they have a minimum I think 1.4bar since then.
So there is a minimum specified from the manufacturer and ofc for sprint races teams tend to run extremes but for endurance and especially in transitions from night day or vice-versa
When ambient temps can change and probably on a second stint of the tyres they still must work hence the lower star Vs higher start pressures is a bit dependent on the situation.
And don't forget that brakes have a huge probably the most influence in heating those tyres hence adding pressure.
But even in series were there's driver swap but no change of tyres it's not uncommon to see the tyres guy adjusting pressures.

And we can see tyres pressures and temps btw.

It's in longest stints where all this shines. Not in 10 laps races

 

[paulpg87]

I add an info just Read in the official forum from the SMS giù working in physics.

In the next patch modern Touring cars Will be modified (tyre model) cause he thinks now they are too hard to handle.