Car handling --- Different online

[korniax]

Did a 2:38 one Cape Ring with a Scuderia offline. Online : 2:37 with the exact same setup. I don't think it changes anything.

 

[rickk]

Thought I was crazy until I encoutered this thread!

@panjandrum: thanks for making the Alpine vid, that says it all. I like to drive Trial Mountain "with the tail out" exactly as you do in Alpine vid (and having been doing so since the PS1 days!) and it's just not possible online.

Except for the Yellowbird not much experience with the RR cars but I'm having huge issues getting the BMWs to behave "correctly", the most extreme example is a tuned-up M3 GTR that's pretty much uncontrollable online, but is great offline.

I think the guys that dismiss this problem as "tire wear" or some other BS reason are just driving different cars in a different way. If I take some Skyline out, follow the racing line and drive "by the book" I have much less issues with the offline physics.

This pisses me off because in the end I want to go online on the ring and drive the Yellowbird like Stefan stole it

I'll try some of the tuning tweaks suggested..

 

[SoMe0nE2tAlK2]

Anyone try messing with different "race quality" settings online to see if it makes a difference?

 

[RamoSapiens]

Did a 2:38 one Cape Ring with a Scuderia offline. Online : 2:37 with the exact same setup. I don't think it changes anything.

With a low front? 2.37 on your second or later lap?

I think i tried different setups for 8 hours, and I got as near
as 1sec from my offline times with the setups I gave U earlier.But U have to drive at least 1 lap before the tires are warm...

sorry I read 2.48 offline...


UPDATE: I´m drunk, meant 2.27........................offline

 

[NitrouStang96]

I just found this thread. I have not read through it all, but I can attest to the differences between my findings in Practice vs Online: In practice I can turn low 41.3's consistently, lap after lap, alone at Daytona, but online I'm consistently pulling low 41.7's, lap after lap. The car does feel different, as well. I wish I knew why!

 

[///CSL]

The best solution seems to be testing and setting up your cars in your own lobby, rather than the practice area. Irrelevant of the reason the cars handle significantly different so best test them in both circumstances... It's only a shame we can't save different vehicle setups.

 

[Lambob]

Yes same here.

Try Lamborghini Murcielago on Daytona Speedway.

Offline you can go through the corners full throttle while online i have yet to master the corner without spinning the car.

Same with Highspeed ring and other MR cars.

Another example is the Lancia Stratos Rally car. Simply impossible to drive.

I saw your post about the Lamborghini on Daytona, online, and I totally agree,

have you found a solution? I cannot go past 240-250 km/h on the long turns, I can do near 300 on the gentlest curve (to start line). Tail spins out , I haven;t checked settings, but my car is maxed at 875HP. I may have a racing fixed suspension, and soft racing tires. I am deeply saddened at the way this murcielago behaves online. please offer me a solution. I am relatively new to the GT(5) franchise, I am at level 16 A-Spec, I spent too much money upgrading my Lambo, and I have little to no money left to earn more money , so I am stuck earning peanuts trying to win races with this car. I also love to drive on the Laguna Seca, and It feels like there is sand on the track under this car.

G25 Steering Wheel, paddle shifting, and I only full throttle on absolute straight lines.

PD, please update me if this is a bug (addressable), I can live with that, otherwise, I will start this game over, and not choose this car ever again. Somewhat Sad. But am loving my PS3 and this game. Highly appreciated at the marvel of technology behind this game. My wife enjoys the Autumn Ring, her first time at the wheel! Such a wonderful family game too. My 3 yr old nephew is driving a VW Bus around the test gear track, I will let him earn my license on this one.

 

[panjandrum]

@panjandrum: thanks for making the Alpine vid, that says it all. I like to drive Trial Mountain "with the tail out" exactly as you do in Alpine vid (and having been doing so since the PS1 days!) and it's just not possible online.

This pisses me off because in the end I want to go online on the ring and drive the Yellowbird like Stefan stole it

I'll try some of the tuning tweaks suggested..

Thank for watching it! I do get the feeling that many people posting here haven't done much actual experimentation. A lot of the AWD cars are enough closer online vs. offline that I can how we are getting such varied opinions. But you've gotta try more cars (and tracks) before you'll see how badly certain cars change. Most of my personal favorites suffer from this bipolar disorder.

While I was learning to drive the Yellowbird in GT4 I watched Stefan drive it over and over again to try and get better with that technique. What's sad is that this actual, demonstratable, reproducible real-life technique works fine in GT4, and works fine in GT5 offline, but doesn't work at all in GT5 online. (At motorsport events you can really tell the drivers (like Stefan) who chose a Porsche because they want a car with an engine in the back apart from those who chose a Porsche and then discovered that they wished the engine was somewhere else. Guess who are the better drivers? Yeah, the one's like Stefan.) Even though I've driven RR cars my entire life, that one video more than anything else helped me learn to drive them well in motor-sports (both the real kind and the virtual kind.)

As to some more online tuning stuff: Putting lots of toe-in on the rear tires will also help make these cars come back inline when you get on-throttle. Unfortunately it also makes the cars unwilling to rotate off-throttle. So you can drive them, but they feel like a different car (ugh!). Also, if you take a car like the Yellowbird and put in the customizable LSD, you can drop the setting way down to something like 5:5:5. This will make the car a bit looser again, plus the car will be less likely to break both rear tires loose under acceleration because it is only sending a small amount of the power to the inside rear during cornering. But I've still not ended up with a solution that allows me to get the cars to feel "right". The online version of my Alpine 1600s, for example, drifts through corners almost like an FR car. I can drive it, but it isn't the way it should be, nor is it the way I want it to be. The more I drive the various RR (and a few MR) cars, the more I feel like PD expected us to want to "drift" these things in the modern sense of the word (rears spun-up, mostly-on throttle, large drift-angle, pretty but slow), instead of in they way they actually drift (rears drifting sideways due to the pendulum effect but not spun-up, mostly off-throttle, little to moderate drift angle, more subtle but fast). I don't want that. I want my RR cars to feel like actual RR cars, and I want my real-life experience to translate properly into the game online, not just offline. And I want to be able to use stock suspensions. One of the key joys of GT4/5 is that the cars feel so much like their real-life equiviliants. Every tweak I have to make annoys me; why do I have to spend my time fixing this junk. Isn't that PD's job?

If you come up with any miracle tuning tips please post them here!

(P.S. Try the Alpine 1600s. I actually like it more than the Yellowbird overall. I tend to really enjoy lower-powered great handling cars. Even fully-tuned it's a much easier car to manage than the bird. It also makes an absolutely fantastic dirt/snow rally car just on stock suspension. Remember, versions of this car were dominant in rallies until the Stratos came along and rewrote the book.)

It is way off from realistic.

Don't know what these people are talking about but as someone who has raced these cars I can say it is absolutely ********.

It is the same story always, as soon as something becomes harder or more difficult to control people think it is more realistic.

They see the harder = the more realistic.

That is a false assumption

Thank you! It is very nice to hear from someone else with some real-life experience. The more I try racing (and fixing) the cars I know and love online the more I realize that PD completely screwed the pooch on them. They simply feel and drive completely wrong. How they could get them to feel so accurate offline and then bungle the online so badly I don't know... Please submit tuning tips if you come up with any.

 

[Adrenaline]

Has anyone found a general rule of thumb, on how to combat the difference online vs offline?

I completely agree online adds oversteer on exit. I have multiple cars that I spent hours fine tuning to a single track, took it online, and it's garbage. The car wants to do circles on corner exit, and nothing else.

So as for a general rule of thumb, I was curious if any tuners had a "Start here for online"
Where you blindly add "X rear toe & Z LSD" or something like that?

 

[orCa]

wow just noticed this thread now and I really thought I was crazy, but apparently it's true.

I don't need to compare lap times to notice the difference, you just feel it when taking corners.
Seriously every car that is easily maneuverable in offline mode gets ultimately impossible to drive for me in online mode.
Almost any sharp corner that I'm taking as if I was on rails in offline mode, instantly spins me out in online races.
I realize that some people might want to have a more realistic behaviour but this is certainly too much.
At Nurburgring when taking the karussel at consistent throttle and steady steering angle which should get me through just perfectly fine, the car would instantly spin out in the middle. This makes no sense as I'm keeping the steering angle and throttle continously steady throughout the whole corner.

Realistic or not, a racing game should have a standardized driving physics, no matter if online or offline. I find it pretty idiotic that PD is making a differentiation there so you always have to adapt when playing online or offline.

Of course wheel users might not have any problems with it, but it's hard to fight oversteer / low traction with the DS3 and as already mentioned, it's pretty stupid having to adapt to online physics each time again when you're just coming from an offline race.

In the end, I might just be a poor driver that can't handle the online physics with a ds3.

 

[Sn1per666]

This was confirmed my PD a few weeks ago if only I can find the link. PD said they made the online physics more "realistic".

Me being primarily a F2007 driver that spends a lot of time setting lap times online I can tell you there is a big difference especially on certain corners/tracks. The ring on Cape Ring and High Speed Ring come to mind. My record is 6 seconds slower on Nurburgring online.

4:55 - online with about 50 hours of practice.
4:49 - offline with about 1 hour of practice.

 

[Denilson]

Maybee... Online, the cars fuel adds on top of the cars weight? And in offline, the cars weight is as if the car was driven with DRY weight. Also, in offline the tyres are warm from start.

When I did a 1:28.145 in practicemode with my XANAVI NISMO Z GT500 I never taught I'd get the same time online. However, after a lot of laps online, almost no fuel left, I enter the pits (cause my Racing Softs was really worn) and throw on some fresh tyres without refueling. After a few laps when the tyres got up to temperture I felt the cars handling got better and better. In the end I pulled a 1:28.013..

NOTE: I'm racing in a online Championship where you do your qualification laps in practicemode, but all practice is held by a host online. So I did a lot of laps on the Coete´Dazur.

So is it possible that as soon you go online the cars weight is increased as the fuel is taken in as a factor, also that the tyres need to warm up first? So to be able to pull the same laptimes online as offline you need to almost empty your fuel load and make sure you have warm and fresh tyres?

 

[KamyKaze1098]

Maybee... Online, the cars fuel adds on top of the cars weight? And in offline, the cars weight is as if the car was driven with DRY weight. Also, in offline the tyres are warm from start.

When I did a 1:28.145 in practicemode with my XANAVI NISMO Z GT500 I never taught I'd get the same time online. However, after a lot of laps online, almost no fuel left, I enter the pits (cause my Racing Softs was really worn) and throw on some fresh tyres without refueling. After a few laps when the tyres got up to temperture I felt the cars handling got better and better. In the end I pulled a 1:28.013..

NOTE: I'm racing in a online Championship where you do your qualification laps in practicemode, but all practice is held by a host online. So I did a lot of laps on the Coete´Dazur.

So is it possible that as soon you go online the cars weight is increased as the fuel is taken in as a factor, also that the tyres need to warm up first? So to be able to pull the same laptimes online as offline you need to almost empty your fuel load and make sure you have warm and fresh tyres?

Intersting...

I always felt it was the tires that led people to believe something was wrong.

They are cold online, and after a few laps they warm up to a point you can push really hard.

Now the behaviour change^, because the fuel weight counts for something, can explain why some people had some problems with their cars.

 

[BWX]

IF PD said that online physics are "more realistic" it only proves ONE thing.. we have different physics online. The part about them being more realistic is BS.. It's just more difficult, also it only affects certain cars. What's up with that?

I think they're just using the time trial physics from last year online. Offline feels easier at times, but it also feels much more realistic, especially the medium speed cornering when you regain traction and rear end snaps back after being loose.

Cars aren't ALWAYS trying to swap ends and kill the driver, especially at lower speeds in underpowered street cars- that's BS, like Live For Speed physics. More difficult does not necessarily mean more realistic.

I drive with zero aids and G25. People using gamepads and/or SRF or auto steering, etc,.. really shouldn't comment, or at least reveal your level of aids/assists used and wheel/no wheel used. That makes a big difference.

 

[Denilson]

IF PD said that online physics are "more realistic" it only proves ONE thing.. we have different physics online. The part about them being more realistic is BS.. It's just more difficult, also it only affects certain cars. What's up with that?

I think they're just using the time trial physics from last year online. Offline feels easier at times, but it also feels much more realistic, especially the medium speed cornering when you regain traction and rear end snaps back after being loose.

Cars aren't ALWAYS trying to swap ends and kill the driver, especially at lower speeds in underpowered street cars- that's BS, like Live For Speed physics. More difficult does not necessarily mean more realistic.

I drive with zero aids and G25. People using gamepads and/or SRF or auto steering, etc,.. really shouldn't comment, or at least reveal your level of aids/assists used and wheel/no wheel used. That makes a big difference.

Wheel: DFGT
SRF: OFF
Drivingline: OFF
TCS: OFF
ASM: OFF
Active Steering: OFF
ABS: 1

In practicemode i pulled a 1:28.149 offline, 1:28.013 online during warmup that lasted for about 1 hour (when fuel's almost empty and with fresh warmed up Racing Softs).

I think it's within the margin to safely say it is not that big of a difference off/online. Atleast as far as Monaco and XANAVI NISMO Z goes
However, when the car was on cold tyres and fueltank was full it felt very different from practicemode. So I do think that in practicemode the cars are driven dryweight and with warm tyres all the time, but in online you need to work the tyres and make sure you don't cary to much fuel to be able to pull good laptimes.

I did a lot of laps, tuning to make my car feel perfect for CoeteDazure. I did use the same setup both for online and offline.

But I do agree about cars with less HP handles wery strange somtimes online.

 

[HBR-Roadhog]

The difference I noticed is that the tire wear is on in online lobbies and the tires are usually running cooler than they do in A-Spec. As a test I ran practice mode on Indy Speedway with tire wear on and with tire wear off. With tire wear off I was able to match my A-Spec times with tire wear on I was 1/2 second slower due to the reduced grip of cooler tires as well as not having many laps with full grip as by the time the tires do get warm they are also starting to wear.

It would seem that for best online results you should either tune your car in practice mode with tires and fuel on or tune in your private lounge. If you tune with tire wear off you may be in for a surprise when racing with it on.


BTW They are more realistic. In real life tires do wear and they do not grip well when cold. In A-Spec they made it easy by not having temp and wear play a big factor something I wish they would not have done. I would much rather have the tire wear on in all races with no option to turn it off.


Edit: One more thing to add.

I use a wheel. I have both the DFGT and the PWTS. For the tests I used the DFGT and all assists off.

 

[jenoma]

[...]I drive with zero aids and G25. People using gamepads and/or SRF or auto steering, etc,.. really shouldn't comment, or at least reveal your level of aids/assists used and wheel/no wheel used. That makes a big difference.

I use gamepad with ABS at 1 and Anti Skid set to 1 and the difference is evident even for me. On Nurburgring with my Ferrari 330 P4 and a decent setup I constantly fight for keeping my rear wheels planted on tarmac, while offline i can push the car to its (and mine) limits without much problems.

The Caracciola-Karussell corner is a pain online, at lower speed my car spun every time and in 2nd gear, it suddenly loses it's rear in an unpredictable way. Yesterday night I was racing online and I was behind a car, in that same corner we both have suddenly lost the car's back at low speed. Never had this problem offline.

The problem is that most of us, experienced and less experienced alike, are tuning cars offline, to bring them online. We don't even have the possibility to save a decent number of setups.

And a more pressing question: why this difference? What's the benefit? If you have a good and stable tuning offline, online should be the same thing unless weather conditions are different.

From what I've seen form the videos posted in this same thread, I have the feeling that the whole balance of many cars is screwed online and i fear that all the set ups I'm doing on many cars, for online purposes, will be less than decent online.

As always, excuse me for my poor English.

 

[lb1990]

last night me and some guys had a 20 lap LMP blast round laguna seca, offline my 908 would happily run 1.09.4xx and it felt pretty planted. go online to qualify and it was struggling to do mid 1.12's. out of the first corner it wanted to over steer, aswell as coming down through the corkscrew. definitely a difference!

 

[Denilson]

last night me and some guys had a 20 lap LMP blast round laguna seca, offline my 908 would happily run 1.09.4xx and it felt pretty planted. go online to qualify and it was struggling to do mid 1.12's. out of the first corner it wanted to over steer, aswell as coming down through the corkscrew. definitely a difference!

Try driving in an online free-run as much so your fuel level is almost at the bottom, then hed to the pits and change tyres, bot don't fuel. Then go out a few laps to warm the tyres and then push it for a few laps before you run out of fuel and see what happens.

 

[SoMe0nE2tAlK2]

Try driving in an online free-run as much so your fuel level is almost at the bottom, then hed to the pits and change tyres, bot don't fuel. Then go out a few laps to warm the tyres and then push it for a few laps before you run out of fuel and see what happens.

I'll have to try this tonight when I get home.
I'll post my results

 

[lb1990]

Try driving in an online free-run as much so your fuel level is almost at the bottom, then hed to the pits and change tyres, bot don't fuel. Then go out a few laps to warm the tyres and then push it for a few laps before you run out of fuel and see what happens.

but i was running my quick times straight away with the highest fuel loads, then when it dropped to about half I was finished with what i wanted to do. There seemed to be no real increase in time with fuel dropping. does fuel amount make a difference, like in F1 2010?

 

[Lambob]

If PD addresses this "problem" or at least offers a solution via options, I am going to buy a 6th PS3, and an 8th copy of this game.

 

[lb1990]

If PD addresses this "problem" or at least offers a solution via options, I am going to buy a 6th PS3, and an 8th copy of this game.

why so many? one in each room of the house?

 

[Spliffy]

yup, noticed the same thing, very frustrating.

 

[infamousDee]

My 3 yr old nephew is driving a VW Bus around the test gear track, I will let him earn my license on this one.

Really? I have a 4-year-old nephew who can barely drive straight, much less find and navigate a decent racing line.

 

[Denilson]

but i was running my quick times straight away with the highest fuel loads, then when it dropped to about half I was finished with what i wanted to do. There seemed to be no real increase in time with fuel dropping. does fuel amount make a difference, like in F1 2010?

You ran your quick times in the beginning because the tyres where fresh. But as your fuel gets low and shoul help to get better times, it is counteracted by the worn tyres. That's why you need to run many laps to get your fuel level as low as around 15 litres, then hed to the pits to get some fresh rubber on. Drive 2-3 laps to get some temperature, and then you have about 4-6 laps to put in a good laptime. Hopefully if my theory holds it wolud be close to your 1:09's..

Honestly, I don't know. I was just posting my experiences. If you went online and you say that you probably had half a tank left. The you probably did not do a pit-stop, right? So when the fuel load gets less heavy you still have tyres getting worn, so my guess is that those 2 facts take eachother out as far as pace goes. So when you have about half a tank, try to do a pit-stop and change the wheels only. Then, when you have fresh warm wheels and a small amout of fuel the laptimes do increase. I've done quite much onlineracing, so I'm pretty sure about this. Ofc you need to be a consistant driver to notice the difference.

 

[udontneed2know2]

Might be due to offline racing not having tire wear added into the mix and online having tire wear. Dunno. Might throw the physics off a bit even with your tires losing just a tiny bit of wear on your runs online compared to them just warming up offline. That is my theory.

Personally have not noticed a difference. I ran the same 6.31 in Nurburg online and off in my HKS

 

[rickk]

But you've gotta try more cars (and tracks) before you'll see how badly certain cars change. Most of my personal favorites suffer from this bipolar disorder.

To be honest I'm beginning to think it's largely due to our our preferred driving style (and thus the cars that we select) that we notice it more than others. If I try to avoid drifting and just follow the game's racing line and brake cues I don't notice much difference, except for some extra oversteer on powering out of the corner.

(P.S. Try the Alpine 1600s. I actually like it more than the Yellowbird overall. I tend to really enjoy lower-powered great handling cars. Even fully-tuned it's a much easier car to manage than the bird.

Actually took it for a quick spin tonight, just took it from the garage as it came (on comfort softs I guess), did 10 practice laps on trial mountain with the controller, after 3 laps I was leisurely sliding the car around the corners, clocking consistent 2:03s, happy and thinking that I should indeed invest some more time in the Alpine 👍

Then I did the same in my lobby which was a completely different experience. There's just seems to be less grip but at the same time more snapsteer. Laptimes where all over the place and didn't manage to lap under 2:10 before I got fed up with it

I worked my way through a set of tires and at no point I felt the handling was the same as in offline mode.

I also did some quick brake tests and braking distances appeared to be longer in online mode. Will try some more later.

I can also echo the comments about the Karussel, online in a RWD car I frequently spin out, especially when entering "too slow", offline (or IRL!) it's much less of an issue.

Anyway, I can't say which mode is "right", but offline is a lot easier to me and appears to be much more like the old versions of the game. In any case something is definately different online.

 

[jenoma]

To be honest I'm beginning to think it's largely due to our our preferred driving style (and thus the cars that we select) that we notice it more than others. If I try to avoid drifting and just follow the game's racing line and brake cues I don't notice much difference, except for some extra oversteer on powering out of the corner.

It's also the fact that someone is tuning with completely different results online compared to offline. I'm not a drifter, I'll try tonight the Alpine, and I usually tune my cars to be safe and easy to drive and capable to make some interesting lap times: with the last 330P4 setup I've made, I was able to get a decent 1.42 on Nurburgring, forget that time for the online sessions, where my predictable oversteering has become much less forgiving and almost frantic.

I can also echo the comments about the Karussel, online in a RWD car I frequently spin out, especially when entering "too slow", offline (or IRL!) it's much less of an issue.

That's the whole point. I'm not an expert player of racing simulator, nor a professional racer, but losing the car's rear while being "too slow" in a RWD is not something you see often IRL and you don't see this kind of behaviour offline. Online is an issue you'll face many times, or at last is what I've seen often happening.

I would like to see coherence between online and offline car's behaviour, to be able to experience the simulation as a whole, I don't really like the fact PD seems to have added a random factor online, which is yet to be fully discovered.

To add my latest experience, I've tried some suggestions I've read here, but the results where exactly the same: less fuel, lighter car does indeed means better lap times, but the strange car's behaviour is still there. One point I can add: in this game there are endurances where fuel and tires consumption is active. In those races the car setup and behaviour is coherent to the whole racing offline experience. And that means, in my opinion, that online there is definitely something wrong... and this is a shame.

 

[Lambob]

Really? I have a 4-year-old nephew who can barely drive straight, much less find and navigate a decent racing line.

Aren't there millions of adults who are just as inept?