Carbon Fibre To Become More Mainstream in Vehicles? Nissan and Honda Say Sure!

[Joey D]

I hope so, I've been saying for years that this needs to be done since modern vehicles are over-weight which affects their fuel mileage. I'll be curious to see where this goes and it obviously not going to happen over night, but this is a technological break-through that I have been looking forward to.

Japanese firms working to make carbon fiber mainstream
On the surface, carbon fiber sounds like a wonder-product which can replace much of the heavy metal, especially steel, that makes up the vast majority of nearly every automobile's structure. Dig a bit deeper, however, and there are a few flies in CF's ointment that make it very difficult to use in vehicles: price, supply and the time it takes to mold a the weaved material. Japan's big three carbon fiber producers are tackling each of these issues in a number of ways. First, the price of CF is expected to become more competitive as both carbon cloth goes down and rolled sheet steel goes up. What's more, as additional CF producing plants come online in the coming years, both the price and availability should improve. Third, new molding processes are being developed which could reduce the time it takes to produce a CF part from hours to minutes.

Carbon fiber is expected to ease the transition to more fuel efficient vehicles as it weights a fifth of what steel does for a part of roughly the same strength. As Automotive News points out, the overall weight of any given vehicle could be halved by replacing major structural steel components with CF, so expect to see CF move down market from the exotics to more mainstream models in the next decade or so.

 

[Jim Prower]

Suddenly, CF hoods don't seem so special, do they?

interesting development.

 

[Omnis]

Yeah, I'm guessing we're going to see hoods, trunks, roofs, pillars, driveshafts, and maybe even CF doors.

 

[McLaren]

Figures. Just look at Road & Track's rendition of the GT-R V-Spec. Carbon fibre everything except the front-side panels.

 

[superberkut]

So, the risk of shattering on impact is not a factor?

This is an interesting development, to say the least, but I doubt the safety of having carbn fibre more prominent in the car's structure.

 

[Joey D]

It would be more of a carbon fibre skin over metal structural pieces, I don't think there would be a huge safety issues.

 

[Omnis]

So, the risk of shattering on impact is not a factor?

This is an interesting development, to say the least, but I doubt the safety of having carbn fibre more prominent in the car's structure.

Robert Kubica will tell you all about CF safety. F1 monocoques don't budge. There's no reason to think that CF in street cars wouldn't be engineered to the same safety standard. They're not going to put weight over strength like the suspension parts on race cars do. Therefore, I'd imagine that the parts shattering would be extremely rare.

 

[YSSMAN]

So, the risk of shattering on impact is not a factor?

Like others said, its strong. Hell, if they can do the plastic panels on Saturns (they stopped this year when the Ion died), they can do carbon fiber easily. I'm more or less worried about how it would impact the price of the cars, and furthermore, what kind of effect it would have on paint... That is, would the extra coatings to create an otherwise "smooth" surface be enough to offset the savings to some extent? People often forget that paint does add a surprising amount of weight to a car...

EDIT:

Which makes me wonder, why isn't PPG (or whoever) trying to create better, thinner, more environmentally-friendly paint to cut weight down?

 

[Philly]

I'm wondering where we would see CF applied. I'm assuming we're talking about fenders, hoods and roofs of more expensive cars. I doubt we'll see this in lower level cars, seeing the currently extensive use of steel there. I'm just basing this off assuming that they won't get the price of CF versus steel much more competitive than aluminum versus steel now. And it doesn't seem that Aluminum is used too extensively in cheaper cars now. And what about fiberglass?

 

[Jim Prower]

Thing is, as a Manufacturing Engineer, this development DIRECTLY EFFECTS my chosen career field. I want to know MORE about these processes.

 

[Muzaffar]

Well it sounds like a good idea. Don't mind if every car is made out of CF, cause then there will be no ricers.... But anyways, CF is still expensive than plastic whatever thingy (forgot the name. Polyurethane? PDF?) and CF is hard to make. But yeah, if the rate of the technology rising like this, I won't be surprised if a CF body frame and parts all become available by 2010. But yeah, the McLaren F1 and Mercedes Benz SLR are really what a CF car is all about.....

 

[superberkut]

Robert Kubica will tell you all about CF safety. F1 monocoques don't budge. There's no reason to think that CF in street cars wouldn't be engineered to the same safety standard. They're not going to put weight over strength like the suspension parts on race cars do. Therefore, I'd imagine that the parts shattering would be extremely rare.

I remember something about carbon-fibre wheels, but I remembered that the stresses put on it are very different.

I am convinced.

 

[peeweegary]

i dont see this happening...in order to put carbon fiber on cars, they will need to increase prices, unless they have found a new method to make it.

 

[Joey D]

i dont see this happening...in order to put carbon fiber on cars, they will need to increase prices, unless they have found a new method to make it.

Read the article, that's what it's about...making it cheaper.

 

[backspace]

Like others said, its strong. Hell, if they can do the plastic panels on Saturns (they stopped this year when the Ion died), they can do carbon fiber easily. I'm more or less worried about how it would impact the price of the cars, and furthermore, what kind of effect it would have on paint... That is, would the extra coatings to create an otherwise "smooth" surface be enough to offset the savings to some extent? People often forget that paint does add a surprising amount of weight to a car...

EDIT:

Which makes me wonder, why isn't PPG (or whoever) trying to create better, thinner, more environmentally-friendly paint to cut weight down?

So because plastic is easy, carbon fiber is easy?
Paint adds significant weight?

What kind of drugs are you on? Share!


Right now carbon fiber material is expensive and hard to obtain in large quantities. Then you have to factor in the extra cost of manufacturing. This wont be happening anytime soon.

 

[YSSMAN]

So because plastic is easy, carbon fiber is easy?

He was worried about the strength of CF, and I know from expirience how dangerous an all-plastic Saturn can be (my cousin "shattered" his S-series). If those are okay, even if CF was brittle (which it isn't), it wouldn't be any worse.

Paint adds significant weight?

Weight is weight, simply put. No, its not hundreds of pounds, but certainly automakers could shed a few pounds by changing the mix a bit.

 

[backspace]

He was worried about the strength of CF, and I know from expirience how dangerous an all-plastic Saturn can be (my cousin "shattered" his S-series). If those are okay, even if CF was brittle (which it isn't), it wouldn't be any worse.

Most body panels such as fenders, hoods etc. do very little for structural ridigity anyway.

Weight is weight, simply put. No, its not hundreds of pounds, but certainly automakers could shed a few pounds by changing the mix a bit.

True, of course it's going to add some weight. I remember hearing that the F40 had extra thin paint (fewer coats, I'd imagine) to save weight, but on anything but the most hardcore racecar it's a little excessive. I'm sure most people would rather have more resilient paint then save a few lbs. In my opinion a lot of factory paint jobs are already sub par.

Just for grins.
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/aero_05/textonly/fo01txt.html

A decked out 747's paint and decals weighs 500 something lbs. ...seems like a lot..but you have to keep in mind the immense surface area of those things.

 

[YSSMAN]

Most body panels such as fenders, hoods etc. do very little for structural ridigity anyway.

Tell that to the neighbor's '70 Mercury Marquis...

(lol)

 

[kikie]

A couple of days ago I saw a docu and the developer of the koenigsegg and he said that this car is made out of CF. The chasis, the body, the interior and even the engine block.

 

[ExigeEvan]

Thing is, as a Manufacturing Engineer, this development DIRECTLY EFFECTS my chosen career field. I want to know MORE about these processes.

No doubt it's all top secret. I was lucky to see the before and after of Nickel foam used in batteries for the Prius, but the process Engineer wouldn't even hint at the detail

He was worried about the strength of CF, and I know from expirience how dangerous an all-plastic Saturn can be (my cousin "shattered" his S-series). If those are okay, even if CF was brittle (which it isn't), it wouldn't be any worse.

Carbon Fibre is brittle. Infact, my local university are doing research to make less-brittle carbon fibre. A brittle product fractures with little deformation, and while you may see F1 wings flexing, that's still not much movement across metre or so span.

The main issue with Carbon fibre body panels is with the current carbon fibre forms and weaves you wouldn't be able to just pull a dent out, though it's strength may mean anything strong enough to dent it would cause chassis damage aswell.

Weight is weight, simply put. No, its not hundreds of pounds, but certainly automakers could shed a few pounds by changing the mix a bit.

They've probably tried for economic reasons (it take a while to dry) and weight reasons, but at the end of a day most people would rather "hide" weight saving inside their car (stripped interior) than have a fading looking car. It could just be lighter mixes just aren't durable enough.

A couple of days ago I saw a docu and the developer of the koenigsegg and he said that this car is made out of CF. The chasis, the body, the interior and even the engine block.

Engine block wouldn't have been, or not that I've evver known CF to be used in high temp uses.

 

[kikie]

Engine block wouldn't have been, or not that I've evver known CF to be used in high temp uses.

The engine block was made out of CF, believe me. It was on the docu. They filmed it, they explained it, and I saw it .

If these guys are lying about the engine block made of CF, then I'm lying as well. I'm just telling what I saw on this docu..

 

[ExigeEvan]

The engine block was made out of CF, believe me. It was on the docu. They filmed it, they explained it, and I saw it .

If these guys are lying about the engine block made of CF, then I'm lying as well. I'm just telling what I saw on this docu..

If you can get a source that would be brilliant. I'm not saying you're lying about it, but a CF engine block would be extremely interesting.

 

[YSSMAN]

Odd, thats not the first time I've heard the CF engine block story. Of course, it was coming from an idiot who didn't know that Chevy had a 302 in the Camaro for three years and thought the BOSS 429 was a limited run of two vehicles.

Idiot, he was.

 

[Slicks]

Thoughts...

-CF, when used for the majority of the body panels on a vehicle, could be a good idea. It saves weight, and is very strong.

-CF is extremely expensive at the current rates. My company recently bought a 12" x 100' roll. It, if I recall correctly, cost almost $1000.

-CF doesn't dent. It deforms/deflects minutely, and then shatters. No cracking, no significant deflection, no warning. If you over-stress CF, it will shatter. In the 'catastrophic failure' type of way. A Carbon-Kevlar panel would be a happier medium, as Kevlar is extremely resistant to shattering, and will give more than a Carbon or Glass panel.

- Repairs to a CF (or any composite) panel will take extensively longer than repairs to a metal panel. A repaired composite panel can also never be as strong as an original. While corrosion is obviously not an issue, a damaged panel (having the coatings damaged, or the panel fractured) will be subject to delamination and blistering.

- Print-through of the underlaying weave of the fabric (Depending on the weave/fabric used, resin used, and color of the finished panel) is quite possible - While not structurally significant, is can be unsightly and costly to fix, as the panel must be refaired and finished. Dark colors are more suceptible to this.

Is a CF body on a production vehicle a good idea? Sure. Will it be seen soon? No, probably not. The production and quality control processes for composite panels take significantly more time than those of sheet metal. Everything about a CF body has a high price... Are we ready to pay it?

 

[kikie]

If you can get a source that would be brilliant. I'm not saying you're lying about it, but a CF engine block would be extremely interesting.

I believe it was on Discovery World (Europe) a couple of days ago. It was a documentary about speed records on land and water (cars, boats, trains etc....). The Koenigsegg CCX is the fastest production car at the moment and the developer of this car explained everything about the car and how they use CF to reduce the weight of the car.

 

[niky]

Suddenly, CF hoods don't seem so special, do they?

interesting development.

CF hoods are hand-laid, and they're not as light as pressed Carbon fiber parts. But those crude CF toys cost more to make than similar steel ones... true production level carbon fiber has to be hard-pressed, and the weave will be much tighter than what you see on cosmetic CF. They showed a CF press on Disco the other day (part of their "FutureCar" series) and when he banged that formed piece against the forge, it rang like metal. Regular CF-resin stuff won't do that... it was awesome.

CF Engine Blocks? It may be possible, but expensive. The block is just there to pass heat, hold fluid in and keep the cylinder sleeves from moving (note that many new blocks are quite hollow)... but the complexities in designing a carbon fiber block are enormous. It's far more cost-effective and probably safer (considering the vibration and heat) to use a metal alloy. Valve covers and intake manifolds, however, can be made out of carbon fiber, and some actually are.

 

[Mt. Lynx]

I believe it was on Discovery World (Europe) a couple of days ago. It was a documentary about speed records on land and water (cars, boats, trains etc....). The Koenigsegg CCX is the fastest production car at the moment and the developer of this car explained everything about the car and how they use CF to reduce the weight of the car.

Hmmm, read this for info on the CCX engine. Doesn´t say CF, but a cool engine none the less.

 

[niky]

I think they mistook the engine cover for the engine block. The CCX uses a CF engine cover. I don't know if it uses a CF valve cover... I remember that the BMW 320is (homologation touring car special... with an amazing 170 bhp 2 liter... ) used a carbon fiber valve cover. That's an impressively cool way to save weight, since an aluminum valve cover weighs a hell of a lot... maybe ten to twenty pounds.

 

[Joey D]

Looks like this might become a reality in the near future after all.

Honda and Nissan working to mass-market carbon fiber
Honda and Nissan are looking for ways to make cars lighter, better, and more recyclable, both for their own benefits and their customers. We've heard about the increased use of aluminum to save weight; next on the heavy R&D frontier could be carbon fiber. Both companies have teamed up with Japanese carbon fiber company Toray, and Mitsubishi Rayon -- a Japanese version of DuPont -- to research new, less expensive carbon fiber for cars.

Their efforts will be helped by the government, which is injecting two billion yen into the project over five years. The plan is that by the middle of the next decade, they'll be able to mass produce a cost effective carbon fiber and use it to reduce the weight of cars by 40-percent. And when they're finished with it, they will also be able to recycle it to reduce production costs.

The current price of carbon fiber makes its use prohibitive except for ornamentation or for use on the most expensive cars. With the price of steel -- and cars -- expected to keep climbing, the mass produced, recyclable carbon fiber will make financial sense in the not-too-distant future. Add in the fuel savings from lighter vehicles, and fewer emissions, and it looks like everyone wins.

 

[Tornado]

I didn't know you could recycle carbon fiber. Hmm.

Anyways, this is pretty good news, though it does make carbon fiber seem less special (not that Ferrari wasn't working at doing that already). I wonder what the process is, or when the changeover will start to occur. Is carbon fiber lighter than fiberglass?