Cars In General - Questions and Discussion

[TuneRVisioN]

This thread has been open for everyone, but I see no one wants to use it and rather start a new thread.

I have two questions about cars. How come so many Japanese cars have 276HP? Is there some type of limit? Even all the buses I drive have 276HP @ 950ft.lbs of torque except one. (Which has 330HP @ 1150ft.lbs of torque.) And what is torque? Is it the measure of power in a vehicle? (Like strength etc.) or not? Please reply.

EDIT: These have been answered below.

 

[TopHat]

The 276 hp mark was part of a gentlemens agreement which lasted into the late 90's if i'm not mistaken.

Torque is... i dunno

 

[OZZYGT]

Use the thread tools and move this to the Cars in general forum.

 

[daan]

Was there a reason you posted this in the rumble strip instead of Automotive>Cars in general?

Do a search for "Gentleman's agreement" in the automotive forums, or google, and you'll find the answer.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=38871&highlight=gentleman's+agreement

And likewise for torque.

Use the thread tools and move this to the Gran Turismo forum.

Done

EDIT: Don - I never even noticed that...

 

[OZZYGT]

Yeah I kinda messed up there, I edited a second after then I realized it belonged here so I edited it again.

 

[El Jarretto]

Torque is basically the amount of power an object can create. Try to turn the tire on a car on jacks, you're creating torque. It's measured in lbs-ft. Basically, say a car has 200lbs-ft of torque at 3500RPM. When the engine is running at 3500RPM basically you can attach a bar at the crankshaft and you were to place 200lbs exactly 1 foot from the center of the crank it will be able to lift that up. HP is also derived of torque, I don't remember the equation but I think it was something like HP= Torque/5250 or something along those lines. Wikipedia.org would have a b etter defined answer.

 

[YSSMAN]

I know there was some kind of thing where you had to be able to lift a certain amount of weight in a certain amount of time to get the rating of horsepower, but I'm not sure how it all works...

Check the Wiki on Horsepower, and the Wiki on Machine Torque.

Its hard to understand and to explain, and certainly I've had a hard time with it.

 

[CDailey]

On a semi related note, from what I understand, horsepower determines how fast you can go while torque determines how fast you get there.

 

[YSSMAN]

I think that is the basic idea. You have to have torque to create horsepower, and vice-versa was my understanding.

 

[Wolfe]

As was mentioned, the 276hp thing -- which is equivalent to 280PS (pferdestarke, German for "horsepower"), the metric version of horsepower that the Japanese use -- was a Gentleman's Agreement, an expected-but-not-required agreement among Japanese manufacturers to limit cars to 280PS. It began in 1989, and was officially abandoned a few years ago when Honda officially unveiled a new 300PS V6 for its domestic-market Legend, but was in fact broken several times before (most notably in the infamous R34 Skyline GT-R, which made at least 330PS). With the limit gone entirely, though, Japanese manufacturers can now go all-out instead of trying to "pretend" their cars make 280PS. That's why the next batch of Japanese supercars are all expected to produce over 400hp.



Torque, described most accurately, is a measure of twisting force. If you imagine a wrench trying to twist a bolt, 1lb.ft would be the equivalent of applying 1lb. of force to a foot-long wrench. Meanwhile, 2 lb.ft could either be applying 1lb. of force to a 2ft. wrench, or applyin 4lb. of force to a 6-inch wrench. The length of the wrench (in feet) and the force applied (in pounds) are multiplied.

Horsepower, then, is basically a measure of torque over time, and is calculated by multiplying the amount of torque an engine produces at a certain RPM by that same RPM, and then dividing that result by 5252 (don't ask me why it's 5252, it just is).

So, if an engine produces 230lb.ft at 5000RPM, then...

230lb.ft x 5000RPM
5252

1150000
5252

= 218.96​

That engine would produce about 219 horsepower at 5000RPM.

As for whether or not torque or horsepower is more important for "speed," well, both are important (since horsepower relies on torque), but horsepower is ultimately the better measure of an engine's ability to move a car quickly. Torque alone is only good for burning up tires and pulling things.

 

[Turbo Lag]

This thread may or may not help

And i too do not know what torque does and is.

 

[Omnis]

Go here: http://www.v8914.com/Horsepower-v-torque.htm

 

[Diablomonkey]

As far as what horse power and torque are well let me put it this way: Torque is what gets you moving (in a car) and also determines how quickly you get moving. Horse power is what keeps the car moving at speed. One easy way to explain what torque is, is the way my dad told me what it is and how it is measured, Torque is the force (in ft/lbs) that would be applied at the end of a 1 foot long (lets go with bar) bar so if you have for example 350ft/lbs of torque then that is the equivalent of having a 350 foot long bar and you put 1 pound weight at the other end. And just like Wolfe said horse power is just a measurement/equation that is gotten from the amount of torque that is produced.

 

[MistaX]

The easiest way to understand torque is it's what you feel when you hit the gas.

You can't feel horsepower.

 

[YSSMAN]

You can't feel horsepower.

[sarcasm]YEH U KAN! WHEN THE V-TEC KIKCS IN!!!1!1!11![/sarcasm]

 

[m7ammed]

so if that the equation for tourqe how come diffrent engines (like BMW vs Merc for example) have diffrent amount of tourqe but end up with similar amount of Horsepower?

and what is the concept of a high revving engine? what does it exactly mean ? does it mean that it has a higher redline?

 

[Duke]

It means just what it says - the redline is higher, and the power peak is higher in the rev range.

 

[Diablomonkey]

It means just what it says - the redline is higher, and the power peak is higher in the rev range.

Couldn't have put it more simply my self

And also smaller displacement engines tend to have to use revs. as means of getting power thats why in F1 the rev the engines up to 20,000 rpm because they only have (what is it now like 2.5L?) 2.5L of displacement. An engine is basically an air pump, if you have more displacement you can move more air in and out, but in order to move the same about of air with a smaller displacement engine you have to spin it faster.


I hope that makes senses

[sarcasm]YEH U KAN! WHEN THE V-TEC KIKCS IN!!!1!1!11![/sarcasm]

OMG I just about died laughing when I read that!

 

[///M-Spec]

so if that the equation for tourqe how come diffrent engines (like BMW vs Merc for example) have diffrent amount of tourqe but end up with similar amount of Horsepower?

Say you can lift 80 pounds in a standing lift. And your friend can lift 100 pounds. Say we call this 'torque'. Who is making 'more torque'? Well your friend is because he can lift more than you. But that's just force. It doesn't tell you at what rate this force is being applied.

Now say you and your friend are trying to move 1600 pounds worth of 20 lb. boxes from a warehouse to a full duty pickup truck.

You can only take 4 boxes at a time (4x20=80lbs)

Your friend can take 5 boxes at a time (5x20=100lbs)

BUT you can walk faster than your friend because you have a lighter load. Or you have strong legs. Or you're just built like a freak. The reason doesn't matter. Fact is, because you're walking faster, you can make 10 trips in the same time your buddy can make 8 trips to the truck.

Say it another way-- you can produce less force, but apply it faster. The end result is that you can both move the same poundage of boxes, 800, in the same amount of time. That's 'work'. Or 'horsepower'.

The analogy isn't perfect, but easy to understand and relate to.

and what is the concept of a high revving engine? what does it exactly mean ? does it mean that it has a higher redline?

There is a shaft at the output end of the engine called the crankshaft. It spins around and around. The faster it spins, the more rotations per minute it makes. Engine speed = crankshaft Revolutions Per Minute (RPM).

An engine spinning at 2,000 RPM is going half as fast as one spinning at 4,000 RPM.


M

 

[kennythebomb]

I've also heard that the Gentleman's Agreement was based off of insurance rates, too.... as in if they went above 280 PS then they would enter into another higher insurance bracket. Is that true?

 

[Car-less]

Say you can lift 80 pounds in a standing lift. And your friend can lift 100 pounds. Say we call this 'torque'. Who is making 'more torque'? Well your friend is because he can lift more than you. But that's just force. It doesn't tell you at what rate this force is being applied.

Now say you and your friend are trying to move 1600 pounds worth of 20 lb. boxes from a warehouse to a full duty pickup truck.

You can only take 4 boxes at a time (4x20=80lbs)

Your friend can take 5 boxes at a time (5x20=100lbs)

BUT you can walk faster than your friend because you have a lighter load. Or you have strong legs. Or you're just built like a freak. The reason doesn't matter. Fact is, because you're walking faster, you can make 10 trips in the same time your buddy can make 8 trips to the truck.

Say it another way-- you can produce less force, but apply it faster. The end result is that you can both move the same poundage of boxes, 800, in the same amount of time. That's 'work'. Or 'horsepower'.

I'd always compared Torque to strength, and Horsepower to Effort or Stamina.
Thus high Torque, low Hp would be like a strong man. Able to push a car from standing without much trouble, but would quickly get tired.
Low Torque, High Hp would be like a marathon runner. Would have trouble getting the car moving, but would just keep on going once started.

 

[YSSMAN]

I've also heard that the Gentleman's Agreement was based off of insurance rates, too.... as in if they went above 280 PS then they would enter into another higher insurance bracket. Is that true?

I'm not sure if that is exactly why it happened, but we did do something fairly similar in America by the close of the muscle car era. The Automakers were constantly underrating their performance specs to save money for the consumer, despite the fact they weren't fooling anyone.

 

[Tornado]

Its rumored Dodge did a similar thing with the SRT-4. Not to mention how everyone and their mother knew that the SVT Cobra produced far more than "390 BHP," how Ford rerated the GT at 550 after months of pounding on the Gallardo, and how Mercedes sheepishly admitted that the SL55 AMG did not actually have "476 HP." And who really believes that the SL600 only has 500BHP?

 

[YSSMAN]

It is a favorite pastime of the various automakers to do so. We see it happen all the time, and I doubt it will ever stop.

 

[Jay]

People wondering about Horsepower and Torque, Just look at the HP formula like Wolfe posted

So, if an engine produces 230lb.ft at 5000RPM, then...

230lb.ft x 5000RPM
5252

1150000
5252

= 218.96​

That engine would produce about 219 horsepower at 5000RPM.

Checking the HP formula you should be able to figure out why engine builders try to get more revs out of an engine (well torque at a higher RPM).

A engine producing 230lb.ft of torque at 5000rpm will have half the horsepower than an engine that produces 230lb.ft at 10,000rpm, why do you think F1 cars want so many RPM's. Seriously the Formula explains it. And a Dyno doesn't measure HP it measures Torque at RPM and calculates the Horsepower from the Formula.

If I can use the same force twice as fast then I have twice the power!


P.S nice practical explanation ///M-Spec 👍

 

[m7ammed]

Say you can lift 80 pounds in a standing lift. And your friend can lift 100 pounds. Say we call this 'torque'. Who is making 'more torque'? Well your friend is because he can lift more than .........

THANK YOU , + rep for you 👍 👍

 

[kennythebomb]

I'm not sure if that is exactly why it happened, but we did do something fairly similar in America by the close of the muscle car era. The Automakers were constantly underrating their performance specs to save money for the consumer, despite the fact they weren't fooling anyone.

Yeah, that thought was in my mind as well. It'd be nice to know if this happened in Japan too. I think it has been established that an insurance incentive wouldn't be the main reason for the Gentleman's Agreement, but it would make things more interesting for me if it was part of it.

 

[turboash78]

I read this somewhere:

Horsepower determines how fast you hit the wall...
Tourque determines how much of the wall you take with you.

 

[Sureboss]

As was mentioned, the 276hp thing -- which is equivalent to 280PS (pferdestarke, German for "horsepower"), the metric version of horsepower that the Japanese use -- was a Gentleman's Agreement, an expected-but-not-required agreement among Japanese manufacturers to limit cars to 280PS. It began in 1989, and was officially abandoned a few years ago when Honda officially unveiled a new 300PS V6 for its domestic-market Legend, but was in fact broken several times before (most notably in the infamous R34 Skyline GT-R, which made at least 330PS). With the limit gone entirely, though, Japanese manufacturers can now go all-out instead of trying to "pretend" their cars make 280PS. That's why the next batch of Japanese supercars are all expected to produce over 400hp.



Torque, described most accurately, is a measure of twisting force. If you imagine a wrench trying to twist a bolt, 1lb.ft would be the equivalent of applying 1lb. of force to a foot-long wrench. Meanwhile, 2 lb.ft could either be applying 1lb. of force to a 2ft. wrench, or applyin 4lb. of force to a 6-inch wrench. The length of the wrench (in feet) and the force applied (in pounds) are multiplied.

Horsepower, then, is basically a measure of torque over time, and is calculated by multiplying the amount of torque an engine produces at a certain RPM by that same RPM, and then dividing that result by 5252 (don't ask me why it's 5252, it just is).

So, if an engine produces 230lb.ft at 5000RPM, then...

230lb.ft x 5000RPM
5252

1150000
5252

= 218.96​

That engine would produce about 219 horsepower at 5000RPM.

As for whether or not torque or horsepower is more important for "speed," well, both are important (since horsepower relies on torque), but horsepower is ultimately the better measure of an engine's ability to move a car quickly. Torque alone is only good for burning up tires and pulling things.

Now, I'm an avid drag racing fan, those things are incredibly powerful, but do you (or anyone else for that matter) know how much torque they produce?

No Dyno goes high enough but it's estimated the top fuellers produce around 8,000 BHP, I don't know many RPMs they can do though, my Dad seems to reckon it's not that much. I know it's different from normal road going cars due to the different fuel, it'd be cool to know how much torque they produce though.

EDIT:


According to this http://www.motortrend.com/features/consumer/112_0502_top_fuel_numbers/ they can peak at around 8,000 RPM for the engine and 12,500 for the supercharger. Which figure do I use to to calculate torque? Slightly reversing your equation of course.

 

[Duke]

You'd use the engine speed. But you'd have to know how much power the engine is making at a given RPM in order to extrapolate the torque. You can't just plug the horsepower peak number into that equation and back out the torque.