Cars sounding off, arrgh!

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That PGR4 video sounds really good, if only PD would dedicate some more time to have proper engine sounds.

Have to agree that it's nearly impossible to create a perfect recreation of every component of an engine sound.

I'm a sound designer for FlightSim, and I normally use recordings of the engine as a whole, just from different directions. While it still cannot recreate the perfect engine sound like you are mentioning, it is enough for a realistic experience.

The main thing with PD sounds is that they lack the engine tone as well as the in-depth sound.

For example, they managed to get the Peugeot 908 almost right (engine tone, deep rumble, etc) but it seems to rev much higher than it does in real life.

With (certain) aeroplanes, I imagine it is useless to be using only external sounds for the interior viewpoints. It's the sound transmitted through the airframe that is most important, and is the hardest to get right without resorting to bespoke interior recordings.
The structure not only "colours" the source (e.g. engine) sound but also adds its own acoustic deformations embellished with rattles and creaks, which are not present in the source. Not all of this becomes airborne, too - i.e. you don't hear it so much as feel it. That's also why your hardware really does matter, but there are ways to fake it.

Cars suffer a similar issue. The whole car becomes a sound source, either secondarily from the engine or because of unique chassis / road / object interactions. No game actually attempts this with the proper level of "expressiveness" required for interactive media.

The 908 is wrong on so many levels (it uses the now-infamous skyline loop), but it can be convincing at times.
 
With (certain) aeroplanes, I imagine it is useless to be using only external sounds for the interior viewpoints. It's the sound transmitted through the airframe that is most important, and is the hardest to get right without resorting to bespoke interior recordings.
The structure not only "colours" the source (e.g. engine) sound but also adds its own acoustic deformations embellished with rattles and creaks, which are not present in the source. Not all of this becomes airborne, too - i.e. you don't hear it so much as feel it. That's also why your hardware really does matter, but there are ways to fake it.

Cars suffer a similar issue. The whole car becomes a sound source, either secondarily from the engine or because of unique chassis / road / object interactions. No game actually attempts this with the proper level of "expressiveness" required for interactive media.

The 908 is wrong on so many levels (it uses the now-infamous skyline loop), but it can be convincing at times.

I think this is what GT does well actually, the sound proofing inside new car's like the ferrari's and lambo's etc are a lot different than say the 1970's cars. I certainly notice it.
 
Just to tell-

I dont know what u are using as a sound output. I have 5.1 home cinema, and sounds in GT5 are just amazing. when I tryed to play it on my Sony Bravia TV, sounds was horrible with no deep effect just like in those videos. In my home GT does sounds very very good. but I agree on a part that not every car sounds just like in a real life! The lack of random engine sounds that it makes on a road is very noticeable in GT, In GT it feels like they recorded them in a studio and then improved them to sound different (elevation changes, bumps etc.) that is what I noticed, but Im sure that PD did record real sounds from most of the cars in GT, they just didnt do it 100% right. Lack of some car sounds when it moves is very noticeable (sounds like engine moving, jumping, metals scraches, plastic vibrate, all bolts want to brake, suspension working on limits..) all that makes special sounds that makes every car different. I think PD made a mistake in that area!
 
I think this is what GT does well actually, the sound proofing inside new car's like the ferrari's and lambo's etc are a lot different than say the 1970's cars. I certainly notice it.

"Sound-proofing" is different, or at least more complex. It was better in Prologue, though.

What I'm talking about goes beyond just sound proofing. PD are using the external recordings to reproduce the interior sound. But exterior noises are missing most of the sound coming through the chassis.

PD's method would imply that your car only produces sound on the outside, and that somehow infiltrates the cabin. In reality, the cabin is already carrying much of the sound from the exhaust, the engine (including its vibration) and the road. Special design of suspension components, engine and exhaust mounts (and their location), chassis construction and shape etc. all contribute to a diminished interior noise. What's left is acoustic insulation to keep out the airborne noise (e.g. from the road surface, the engine bay, the exhaust opening etc.) which impacts the car at different points and transmits itself into the chassis and then the cabin.

A racing car doesn't really worry about these "sound-proofing" measures, opting for solid engine and exhaust mounts, non-compromising suspension and very little acoustic insulation. This results in a very loud interior, more than just the effect of removing "sound proofing". Obviously, sustained loud sound could be detrimental to a racing car, so these effects (i.e. resonance) are engineered out.
 
"Sound-proofing" is different, or at least more complex. It was better in Prologue, though.

What I'm talking about goes beyond just sound proofing. PD are using the external recordings to reproduce the interior sound. But exterior noises are missing most of the sound coming through the chassis.

PD's method would imply that your car only produces sound on the outside, and that somehow infiltrates the cabin. In reality, the cabin is already carrying much of the sound from the exhaust, the engine (including its vibration) and the road. Special design of suspension components, engine and exhaust mounts (and their location), chassis construction and shape etc. all contribute to a diminished interior noise. What's left is acoustic insulation to keep out the airborne noise (e.g. from the road surface, the engine bay, the exhaust opening etc.) which impacts the car at different points and transmits itself into the chassis and then the cabin.

A racing car doesn't really worry about these "sound-proofing" measures, opting for solid engine and exhaust mounts, non-compromising suspension and very little acoustic insulation. This results in a very loud interior, more than just the effect of removing "sound proofing". Obviously, sustained loud sound could be detrimental to a racing car, so these effects (i.e. resonance) are engineered out.

This.

With FlightSim, there are two different sets of sounds for the interior and the exterior. These are further broken up into different directional sounds for the combustion and ignition engines.

Even with cars, you'll have different sounds inside and out.
 
Just to tell-

I dont know what u are using as a sound output. I have 5.1 home cinema, and sounds in GT5 are just amazing. when I tryed to play it on my Sony Bravia TV, sounds was horrible with no deep effect just like in those videos. !

There we go!!! Someone else with 5.1 surround that knows what i'm talking about..
I knew i wasn't imagining things.
 
Tvensky
Just to tell-I dont know what u are using as a sound output. I have 5.1 home cinema, and sounds in GT5 are just amazing. when I tryed to play it on my Sony Bravia TV, sounds was horrible with no deep effect just like in those videos. !

There we go!!! Someone else with 5.1 surround that knows what i'm talking about..
I knew i wasn't imagining things.


"Sound-proofing" is different, or at least more complex. It was better in Prologue, though.

What I'm talking about goes beyond just sound proofing. PD are using the external recordings to reproduce the interior sound. But exterior noises are missing most of the sound coming through the chassis.

PD's method would imply that your car only produces sound on the outside, and that somehow infiltrates the cabin. In reality, the cabin is already carrying much of the sound from the exhaust, the engine (including its vibration) and the road. Special design of suspension components, engine and exhaust mounts (and their location), chassis construction and shape etc. all contribute to a diminished interior noise. What's left is acoustic insulation to keep out the airborne noise (e.g. from the road surface, the engine bay, the exhaust opening etc.) which impacts the car at different points and transmits itself into the chassis and then the cabin.

A racing car doesn't really worry about these "sound-proofing" measures, opting for solid engine and exhaust mounts, non-compromising suspension and very little acoustic insulation. This results in a very loud interior, more than just the effect of removing "sound proofing". Obviously, sustained loud sound could be detrimental to a racing car, so these effects (i.e. resonance) are engineered out.

Some interesting points, i enjoy reading your posts. As for the racecars having a loud interior once being stripped down, it's a shame then that the RM car's sounds aren't more pronounced.
 
I just pretend PD replicates the sounds of the cars in the alternate reality world called "GT world".

So all is good for. I guess I'm not bothered by an Enzo sounding like a V8. As long as its fast and can beat the guy I'm racing, it can sound like a lawnmower cutting up a Barbie Doll for all I care.
 
This.

With FlightSim, there are two different sets of sounds for the interior and the exterior. These are further broken up into different directional sounds for the combustion and ignition engines.

Even with cars, you'll have different sounds inside and out.

I suppose if we take the example of a fast jet, usually from the front you'd hear mostly the compressor wheels (i.e. the intake) but from the rear you'd get the trans-sonic "combustion" noise coming out of the turbines, or the ridiculous roar of the afterburner - i.e. the exhaust. In some circumstances, esp. with the afterburner on, you'd hear a mixture of the two, depending on the surroundings (reverb) and the speed of the craft.

In a way, this approach is well suited to cars for much of the same reasons.
The environmental effects are more important, arguably, for the fast jet than a fast car, but are more difficult to get convincing results from in either case.

In both cases, there is probably a significant "aerodynamic" component - i.e. the thing that makes fast-moving cars sound like aeroplanes. Add to that specific "quirks" of the engine / chassis combination (e.g. the Avro Vulcan and its tendency for certain parts of the airframe to resonate with the engines, giving its characteristic howl) and it soon becomes quite a task to extract all of these sources and recombine them in a way that mimics the range of "expressions" possible from the real thing.

There we go!!! Someone else with 5.1 surround that knows what i'm talking about..
I knew i wasn't imagining things.

Some interesting points, i enjoy reading your posts. As for the racecars having a loud interior once being stripped down, it's a shame then that the RM car's sounds aren't more pronounced.

Yes, I had hoped for weight reduction (esp. stage 3) to have a similar effect. It's certainly possible, assuming PD are simply filtering the sounds for the interior.

Your point about 5.1 is probably contentious to many, but I'm of the opinion that much of the "exhilaration" of cars in the metal is due to the fact that they are chuffing loud, so it's a full-body experience. A good sound system helps there, at least. I use headphones though, for the obvious social benefits...
 
I agreed whole-heartedly with your previous post about some people just "not getting" sound (i.e. they've never really paid attention to it, not surprising considering how little we rely on our hearing nowadays...) but now you're saying that rFactor mod sounds like the real thing. I bet you've seen at least one of those race-prepped 911s at some point, and you should know that if you were sat in the actual car, it would sound nothing like that YouTube video. Yes, the samples were probably taken from that video - that's all that comparison "proves".

Perhaps you might think about what that YouTube clip is missing. I'm fed up with people saying GT should sound like x or y game (or indeed, that any game should sound like x or y game) - the point is, they're all inaccurate. Sound designers need to go back to basics, re-think their assumptions and prejudices and start getting sound right! It's happening in shooters now, so I think it's time for it to show up in simulations, too.

As for GPL, you should know that it originally never used samples (well, it used one for all cars, but all cars still sounded fairly unique). It was patched to allow for unique samples per car, but the net effect in the game is still more complex and multi-dimensional than the single sample could allow. What I mean is, there seems to be some "synth" element to it, the idle sound demonstrates this in particular. If you still play GPL, look out for sound engine updates in the future - the modding community are coming up with some nice ideas ;)

While I partly agree with you, I have to disagree :) This video shows, that the essence of the real sound has been captured very well. The amount of gearbox whine seems to be spot on in relation to the engine sound.

the gearbox whine during gear changes sounds spot on as well.

The engine sound is the right mixture of turbo spooling and boxer sound.

Is it the exact same sensation you would get in the real car? Of course not. Is it better than most other efforts? I think it is.

Yesterday while playing the pretty great Netkar Pro 1.3 beta I suddenly knew why engine sounds are so important to me (apart from sounding AWESOME of course:)). With a convincing engine sound (mixed with believable physics of course) I feel like actually driving the real thing. I do get this feeling in iRacing and Netkar. With a rather synthetic engine sound, this illusion can´t exist, because you hear with every rev that you are simply playing a game.

I don´t know if I can describe it well. It is like the GT HUD. Before we were able to turn it off (Thank GOD, ahh Kaz for that), we were constantly reminded that it is "just" a game we play.

On the 5.1 issue, while I seriously, honestly VERY seriously doubt that GT5 turns into an engine sound masterpiece by switching to 5.1 instead of the good ol´ 2.1, I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

Then I have to make the assumption that PD failed to transform this glorious experience from 5.1 to "normal" speaker systems.

Funny thing though, iRacing, netkar, RFactor, GPL, GT Legends (to some degree), NFS Shift, RBR, all of these sound a LOT better than GT5 on my 2.1 Bose headphones. Let me change "better" to "more believable". The SL 65 AMG on shift sounds as real as Paris Hilton singing. But it sounds meaty and roars like a powerful engine (The SL... not Paris). Its not dead as most of the GT sounds are imo.
 
Fastlap - On the 5.1 issue, while I seriously, honestly VERY seriously doubt that GT5 turns into an engine sound masterpiece by switching to 5.1 instead of the good ol´ 2.1, I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

Then I have to make the assumption that PD failed to transform this glorious experience from 5.1 to "normal" speaker systems.

I think maybe it's to do with the way GT made or incorporated the engine sounds. I assure you when i unplug even just a simple surround sound setup as the Logitech Z506 and play GT5 through my Sony Bravia speaker's that the engine note's do significantly change, like it is very audible not just slightly different. As the other person with 5.1 pointed out.
Oh what i'd give to hear it on a $1000+ system though...

Edit: Engine note wasn't the best way to describe it, but because you can hear each sound / component indivdually and coming from the direction that it's spose to it is enhanced so so much. Like a wheel vs controller, the controller works great,perfect in fact but once you have used a good wheel you couldn't imagine playing with a god awful controller again.
 
While I partly agree with you, I have to disagree :) This video shows, that the essence of the real sound has been captured very well. The amount of gearbox whine seems to be spot on in relation to the engine sound.

the gearbox whine during gear changes sounds spot on as well.

The engine sound is the right mixture of turbo spooling and boxer sound.

Is it the exact same sensation you would get in the real car? Of course not. Is it better than most other efforts? I think it is.

Yesterday while playing the pretty great Netkar Pro 1.3 beta I suddenly knew why engine sounds are so important to me (apart from sounding AWESOME of course:)). With a convincing engine sound (mixed with believable physics of course) I feel like actually driving the real thing. I do get this feeling in iRacing and Netkar. With a rather synthetic engine sound, this illusion can´t exist, because you hear with every rev that you are simply playing a game.

I don´t know if I can describe it well. It is like the GT HUD. Before we were able to turn it off (Thank GOD, ahh Kaz for that), we were constantly reminded that it is "just" a game we play.

On the 5.1 issue, while I seriously, honestly VERY seriously doubt that GT5 turns into an engine sound masterpiece by switching to 5.1 instead of the good ol´ 2.1, I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

Then I have to make the assumption that PD failed to transform this glorious experience from 5.1 to "normal" speaker systems.

Funny thing though, iRacing, netkar, RFactor, GPL, GT Legends (to some degree), NFS Shift, RBR, all of these sound a LOT better than GT5 on my 2.1 Bose headphones. Let me change "better" to "more believable". The SL 65 AMG on shift sounds as real as Paris Hilton singing. But it sounds meaty and roars like a powerful engine (The SL... not Paris). Its not dead as most of the GT sounds are imo.

It's very good as far as these mods go, but it pales in comparison to those productions that have used high-quality recording gear (which isn't that expensive nowadays) to capture the interior sound properly. In that Porsche, it's a bit "washy", probably from having to recover lost detail from the source - using raw recordings avoids this, obviously.
The GTR series, along with GT Legends demonstrate this well. The only problem being that the samples don't line up and mix together very well in a lot of cases, thus spoiling the illusion. Then there's the archaic sound engine problem again. PGR4, a video of which I posted earlier, is excellent in the interior sound department - sadly, direct-feed footage is rare. (help?)

I suppose I misinterpreted your original post - you said you enjoy sounds, I read that to mean that you actively analyse them for some reason. :dunce:
Now, funnily enough, you don't need to pay attention to sound to enjoy it. That's what we do most of the time, even listening to music whilst doing other things. Your brain already knows (or thinks it knows) what it's listening to, so you don't need to concentrate. In that case, you could play anything as long as it's "exciting" and it'll get the job done in a "simulator" (i.e. your SL 65, in Shift.)

Now, if you're comparing a game to how it actually should sound (so, that means you're paying attention to the nuance, and not focusing on your shifting points etc.) you would agree that no game gets it right. Some do the entertaining thing (NFS) to get around the limitations of their methods and their hardware / software. Others try to push the software to give them something more realistic (if not necessarily any more accurate on a per-car basis) - although that might introduce a dependency on extra hardware.

5.1 is great because it immerses you in a physical sound field, just as you would be in the real car. The psychological effect of that alone can be profound. Add to that, the fact that the spectral response and overall power output of such systems tends to eclipse almost any modern TV or cheap 2.1 system, and you see that the experience can be even more visceral before changing a single sound file. I personally don't use any fancy headphones, just some basic professional-level Sonys (but they have excellent response and volume, but lack bass a smidge) and they still don't compare to my "budget" 5.1 system on my PC for "impact".
Equally, one of the best things about listening to classical music at a proper concert, for example, is the way the sound envelopes you and delivers its energy to all of your body. Sounds silly, but it really can never be fully reproduced from a recording without the spatial information and volume. Racing cars are the same, especially given that they're even louder. I know NFS tries a lot of tricks to try to convey that impact, but it actually just irritates me. The Shift 2 teaser trailer, for instance, is an abomination in sound production. But the kids like it. :sly:

Unfortunately, there are some shortcomings with the way PD seem to deliberately exclude intake noise, which would greatly enhance the interior views (and exterior) and mask most of the annoying whir that is used as "engine" noise. And, of course, the tendency to use whatever's lying around for some cars, giving rise to threads like this.

By the way, the GT3 isn't turbo-charged - maybe you should pay better attention ;)
 
Hehe, touché on the GT3, I should have caught that. It did sound like it but anyway.

I get your points and I agree that the goal should be to recreate reality and not to make something more exciting just for the fun of it. And of course a 5.1 speaker system is better for this purpose than a 2.1 system, there is no doubt about that.

But no matter how you try to spin this, the fact remains that GT does lack grunt and sounds synthetic. I mean I have driven a 430, and I have been a passenger in a murcielago, and the sensation is completely different from what you get in GT. That is it, there is no way around it. It may be better in 5.1 but I seriously doubt that it is close to reality.

All I am saying is that GT needs to get the sounds close to the graphics in terms of perfection. That would greatly enhance the experience even for people who normally do not give a poop about engine sounds.

I think we can agree that the engine sounds in GT are not that great, can we?

And I think we can agree that other games / sims have done a better job. Although it is fair to mention that other games did not have a thousand cars to simulate.

EDIT: regarding your last post, I would agree that no game has gotten it absolutely right yet. That is very true unfortunately. But some have gotten a lot closer than GT did.
 
iRacing sound like crap for most of the cars - I really don't know why people keep bringing iRacing up, it isn't known for awesome sound

RBR? gees RBR is terrrible! About as synthy as you can get

NFS Shift - sounds like razor blades on ears with all the overdone distortion, ditto for GT5 race cars. Especially with headphones....
 
Hehe, touché on the GT3, I should have caught that. It did sound like it but anyway.

I get your points and I agree that the goal should be to recreate reality and not to make something more exciting just for the fun of it. And of course a 5.1 speaker system is better for this purpose than a 2.1 system, there is no doubt about that.

But no matter how you try to spin this, the fact remains that GT does lack grunt and sounds synthetic. I mean I have driven a 430, and I have been a passenger in a murcielago, and the sensation is completely different from what you get in GT. That is it, there is no way around it. It may be better in 5.1 but I seriously doubt that it is close to reality.

All I am saying is that GT needs to get the sounds close to the graphics in terms of perfection. That would greatly enhance the experience even for people who normally do not give a poop about engine sounds.

I think we can agree that the engine sounds in GT are not that great, can we?

And I think we can agree that other games / sims have done a better job. Although it is fair to mention that other games did not have a thousand cars to simulate.

EDIT: regarding your last post, I would agree that no game has gotten it absolutely right yet. That is very true unfortunately. But some have gotten a lot closer than GT did.

Yes, GT does lack accuracy in many details. Whilst other games may have done a better job in certain areas (such as the quality and / or accuracy of individual samples), they tend to lack in other areas - such as blending of these samples, and changing the sound for different viewpoints or the use of a low-frequency control scheme that causes "stepping" and the associated distortion.

All games sound synthy, because of the pitch-bending of the samples. GT5 only really sounds synthy in the higher revs, because it doesn't use enough samples (where pitch bending would become very obvious, like it is in the lower revs / idle). The "whirring" sound common on many cars is not "synth" anymore than it is in any other game, that's the ancillaries on the engines recorded from the car. Unfortunately, they omit the intake sound (which is where the grunt comes from) so interior views of certain cars are dominated by this whizzy sound (e.g. MP4-12C).

The problem with GT is and always has been accuracy - i.e. the choice of samples. Which is where this thread comes in, admittedly.
I'm with you in that I wish GT5's sound were on a par with the graphics, but even that has obvious holes.
 
Yep, so we are on the same page. None of the sims or games have really nailed the sound yet. Some are better than others. We can only hope that PD makes it their mission to recreate the sensation of flooring a V12 not only in a physical or visual way, but also in an audible way.

I would love that.

I think Live for Speeds approach is also quite interesting. It is a dynamic system that (I think) creates its own samples depending on the number of cylinders, the engine layout, displacement etc. The result was very interesting actually. There was a tool once with which you could modify cars with basically any kind of engine you wanted.

So you could fit the Caterham type car with a Turbocharged inline 2.5 l 5 cylinder engine. Or put an 8 liter V10 in a coupe and so on. The results were pretty good in some cases.

There once was a completely dynamic system that you could actually download and play with. I don´t remember the name right now, but it was completely dynamic, and it simulated a V8 engine. You had a slider for throttle and a slider for damage. It wasn´t bad actually!! There are options other than the typical sample based engine.
 
Yep, so we are on the same page. None of the sims or games have really nailed the sound yet. Some are better than others. We can only hope that PD makes it their mission to recreate the sensation of flooring a V12 not only in a physical or visual way, but also in an audible way.

I would love that.

I think Live for Speeds approach is also quite interesting. It is a dynamic system that (I think) creates its own samples depending on the number of cylinders, the engine layout, displacement etc. The result was very interesting actually. There was a tool once with which you could modify cars with basically any kind of engine you wanted.

So you could fit the Caterham type car with a Turbocharged inline 2.5 l 5 cylinder engine. Or put an 8 liter V10 in a coupe and so on. The results were pretty good in some cases.

There once was a completely dynamic system that you could actually download and play with. I don´t remember the name right now, but it was completely dynamic, and it simulated a V8 engine. You had a slider for throttle and a slider for damage. It wasn´t bad actually!! There are options other than the typical sample based engine.

Live for Speed is a very interesting case. It uses a single, short sample per car (it's basically a noise burst) that is then duplicated and arranged according to the engine layout and firing sequence by using several short delay lines. This is then aggregated into some sort of "manifold / header" sound which is then filtered to give the impression of an exhaust pipe. It's fairly basic, but it is a nice (and refreshing!) attempt at first-principles modeling, commendably so. The results on their own are a bit lacking over recordings, but the range of expressiveness is impressive. As is the "on-the-fly" adjustment of engine layout etc. I had a lot of fun messing around with that tool (LFSTweak) with the early versions of LFS. In fact, I still have an alpha version somewhere for reminiscing... :dopey:

As for this dynamic V8 system, I'd like to know more about it! :)
I know Sonory do something similar, but you need FMOD.
 
iRacing sound like crap for most of the cars - I really don't know why people keep bringing iRacing up, it isn't known for awesome sound...

I agree. Great sim, but the sound in all but a few cars is utterly bland and sorely lacking mechanical "grunt".
The V8 Falcon and the Riley DP are pretty much the only road cars that don't put me to sleep (and the Riley mostly because I find the engine note pleasant rather than because it sounds as savage as I believe it should). I hear the Lotus should sound pretty good as well - it's the only road car I haven't bought yet.

I just played netKar 1.3 beta last night, the new Osella PA-21S sounds great, and so do most of the other cars in that sim in my opinion.
 
I have been digging in my memory AND google for this one. It was called the "staccato Engine" and the only game I know that it has been used in was Nascar Revolution. Which was released back in 98 I think.

Also Netkar Pro used a similar System in the beginning, but I think they cancelled that one.

I heard of it first in an interview with one of the west brothers (who were developing Racing legends for a while, but propably nobody here has heard of them), which was about a project called World Sports Cars, which never saw the light of day. He talked about a sound engine that is fed with over 100 parameters and then puts out an engine sound.

I tried to find the staccato demo online, but had no luck. I then tried to find a video of nascar revolution, again no luck.
 
The Citroen GT road car is another example. It has a V8 IRL, but has a V10 sound in GT5.




PD could've reused the sounds from the Ford GT (considering it's the same engine), with a little bit of modifications.
 
I have been digging in my memory AND google for this one. It was called the "staccato Engine" and the only game I know that it has been used in was Nascar Revolution. Which was released back in 98 I think.

Also Netkar Pro used a similar System in the beginning, but I think they cancelled that one.

I heard of it first in an interview with one of the west brothers (who were developing Racing legends for a while, but propably nobody here has heard of them), which was about a project called World Sports Cars, which never saw the light of day. He talked about a sound engine that is fed with over 100 parameters and then puts out an engine sound.

I tried to find the staccato demo online, but had no luck. I then tried to find a video of nascar revolution, again no luck.

Thanks very much for the info! As best as I could find, the product was called SynthBuilder, which ran on SynthCore. "Staccato Systems" is still owned by Analog Devices, but I don't think synthesis is high on the priority list these days - and the Staccato website has gone.
I have seen libraries from other research groups which seem like they could be very similar. I guess the improved sample-based synthesis, facilitated by cheaper memory killed off this kind of game audio after only a few takers. And yet it is finding its way back, slowly.

By the way, the NASCAR Revolutions demo is still available on the net... I shall be giving that a go.
And I have heard of the fabled Racing Legends ;)

Oh, I tried Sonory's patch for FMod Designer, and it sounds great (like the demos on the website), but FMod designer is so limited for engine sounds - it's just not fast enough.
 
This is silly saying XX engine sounds like XX.

Sure i agree with the FGT car, it sounds like it is much lower reving than it is, but the difference betweeen a V10 and a V8 lies with so many different factors, there is no way you can take a blindfold test of a random car/engine and pickout the ones.

A Mercedes engine will sound different to a Ferrari, you have NA and Turbo or Supercharged engines, the many other configeration differences, the timing, the exhaust, the sound that the car around it produces from the vibrations of the engine, the sound proofing and and a variety of other varying factors.

Everything plays a factor, you cant just say "oh this car is wrong because its a V10 and it sounds like a V8, its the most ridiculous thing i have ever heard.


With that said, there are many cars in GT5 that don't sound right, but there are over 1000 cars in the game, and it is never going to be perfect. TDU2 recently came out, has only around 100 cars and the sounds are almost stoneage like in comparison to GT5. Codemasters games are praised for their sounds, and rightfully so, the rally cars in Dirt 2 sound fantastic, the F1 cars in F1 2010 sound spot on, but those are games with only a handful of cars, where the sounds are all very similar.

Don't really think there is much point to this thread if you're trying to compare the sound difference between a V8 and a V10 in a car, when analysing if the cars sounds are right or wrong.
 
I can get by with most of the GT5 sounds with their lack of grunt

I'm and f1 nut, and the way the FGT, F2007 and F10 sounds are just wrong...in every aspect

the F10 is not particularly bad, but still lacking, as for the FGT, sounds like a chipmunk on helium :yuck:
 
The problem you will always find with engine sounds in games is they are sampled, not simulated.

They sample the sound at various rev points and blend between them, or even worse, sample it at idle and change the pitch (ewww..)

An engine is such a complex thing 3000rpm is not always 3000rpm.. The sounds in GT don't take into effect load on the engine (most games don't to be fair), its completely linear, buzzes up and down like an electric toy, taking in no consideration to other factors like airbox resonance, overrun etc..

3000rpm at full load in a low gear as opposed to 3000rpm at mid throttle in a high gear, the engine is working differently... The exhaust flow is different (listen to a Ferrari at high revs when it just starts to rasp and get nasty, that's revs and load).
Not only that, take a car to a track and spend a day driving it hard, there is a real violence to it, its dirty, its rough and nasty..

From memory F355 Challenge on the DC was really good, it SCREAMED! At high revs it just sounded like an engine on the edge.
Also, some cars on the PS2 game of the American LeMans series sounded amazing, they spat and backfired and just sounded like big angry racing machines.
 
We should probably all realise that "load" isn't really a controlling factor. What you really mean is "throttle position". To maintain 3000 rpm with a higher load, you need to crack open the throttle more. Load is so arbitrary with respect to rpm (in fact, it's just the power curve at full throttle) that it means very little from a control standpoint. The throttle, however, is very tangible and meaningful - it's the primary control for the engine. FMod designer, however, treats "load" as a secondary effect and calculates it somewhat arbitrarily based on the change in rpm, which is wrong in so many ways.

Dyno recordings, then, ought to be steady state at different throttle positions. Usually it's on or off; but "off" is impossible unless you drive the engine at 3000 rpm via the wheels. I don't know if anybody does that.

That's why on-track recordings, or "dynamic" / "ramped" dyno recordings are so important, as references.
 
The Citroen GT road car is another example. It has a V8 IRL, but has a V10 sound in GT5.

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PD could've reused the sounds from the Ford GT (considering it's the same engine), with a little bit of modifications.

The real life car is just a one off concept, the original design was virtual car in GT5 Prologue, a hybrid of sorts.

The car in GT5 is neither. PD designed the car, they can do whatever they want
 
The real life car is just a one off concept, the original design was virtual car in GT5 Prologue, a hybrid of sorts.

The car in GT5 is neither. PD designed the car, they can do whatever they want

You have a point considering that it could be a concept for a future production version, although it states in the GT5 description that the road car is powered by a V8.
 
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