Cars with other cars parts,

[Savoy1984]

Since getting into cars more and more recently got to admit I was a little disappointed to find that a lot of cars are made up of pieces from other cars and sometimes they aren't even from the same company.

It's like sometimes on Top Gear or you read in a car magazine it will say something like this is the new Ford Fiesta and it's got a Toyota engine in it (not a real example but that kind of thing) and then you hear that a Lotus as the gear box from an Escort. again not a fact but you get the idea.

I know it's easy for me to say why not design a 100% brand new car but at the same time it's a bit boring if nothing else, what does everybody else think?

 

[daan]

But they are usually from the same parent company.

It does not make for financial sense for, for example, Peugeot and Citroen to design a completely new engine. They are both part of the same group, so they design an engine that they both use.

The other side of the coin is nearly something you mentioned. The first Lotus Esprit had a Citroen gearbox. Lotus bought the rights to use it, as it made more financial sense to use a proven design rather than spend a fortune designing their own.

 

[1X83Z]

It does not make for financial sense for, for example, Peugeot and Citroen to design a completely new engine. They are both part of the same group, so they design an engine that they both use.

And with this simple explanation of economies of scale, the thread should be closed.

 

[YSSMAN]

Well I really can't say there is anything completely wrong with it in many of the circumstances, however some of the mish-mashes of parts and things are a bit strange. The previous BMW X5 used a GM-sourced automatic transmission, Saturn's previous VUE Red-Line had a Honda V6, the Ferrari 599 and Audi TT both have suspensions taken off of a Cadillac... The list is rather long to be honest.

People like what other people do, and they either copy it and make it their own, or they just take it and use it.

 

[Corsaphobic]

A car made-up from the GM spare parts bin might not feel 'exclusive', but it's a way of saving costs on development. For example, the Ford Ka (which is in GT4) might have a fancy (or ugly, depending on your opinion) body design, but, although it's not a mish-mash of different firms, the chassis, engine and running gear is the same as a Fiesta. Therefore, cheaper development costs on what is supposed to be a cheap car, achieved with proven, reliable engines and a chassis praised for good handling.

Another example is the Lotus Elise. Rover's K-series engine, while punchy and responsive, was getting old, and MG Rover weren't far from going in administration, so Lotus set about getting a new engine... from Toyota. Specifically, the top-end Celica engine, which was, I'd assume, a reliable yet relatively powerful engine, and one which was approved under US emmisions laws which meant an opportunity to market the Elise in a new market. Much cheaper than trying to make a new engine, too.

 

[Scaff]

For example, the Ford Ka (which is in GT4) might have a fancy (or ugly, depending on your opinion) body design, but, although it's not a mish-mash of different firms, the chassis, engine and running gear is the same as a Fiesta. Therefore, cheaper development costs on what is supposed to be a cheap car, achieved with proven, reliable engines and a chassis praised for good handling.

With the engine you can go back a lot further than the Fiesta, to 1959 and the introduction of the Kent engine..

Fords legendary Kent Engine first appeared in 1959 in the equally new Anglia 105E. The Kent engine was completely new and finally allowed Ford to break away from its old sidevalve unit which powered the previous 100E small car range. Over the years Ford have continued to develop the Kent engine and have produced it in a huge range of sizes.

Other models to enjoy the Kent engine have included the Classic, Cortina (MkI to MkV), Capri, Escort (MkI to MkV), Fiesta (MkI to current) , KA, and small versions of the Sierra. The current versions of the Kent can be found in 1300cc form in the current Fiesta and KA, both types having Electronic Fuel Injection and catalyst converters.

Source - http://www.motorbase.com/engine/by-id/20 and this book

Hard to believe its still basically the same engine architecture and first used in the Anglia, but it is a fantastic example of a good solid design being used over the years.

The Ka is also a great little car as well, quite agree on that front.

Another example is the Lotus Elise. Rover's K-series engine, while punchy and responsive, was getting old, and MG Rover weren't far from going in administration, so Lotus set about getting a new engine... from Toyota. Specifically, the top-end Celica engine, which was, I'd assume, a reliable yet relatively powerful engine, and one which was approved under US emmisions laws which meant an opportunity to market the Elise in a new market. Much cheaper than trying to make a new engine, too.

Another good example and quite right on both fronts, Lotus would almost certainly have never been able to afford to design a federal compliant engine themselves and then make a profit from the car as well. It made sense to take a reliable unit that was already compliant and adapt it for the Elise (the ECU was reprogrammed).

👍 +rep for a good couple of points

Regards

Scaff

 

[1X83Z]

The previous BMW X5 used a GM-sourced automatic transmission,

Can you show me where you can prove this? I can't find any information on this anywhere on the Internet.

Saturn's previous VUE Red-Line had a Honda V6,

It wasn't just the Red Line, it was all V6 Vues from 2004 to the present, and not only did they use Honda's 3.5-liter six-cylinder, they used Honda's 5-speed automatic transmission too.

the Ferrari 599 and Audi TT both have suspensions taken off of a Cadillac...

Simply incorrect - they just all use Delphi's magnetic ride suspension. Cadillac just happened to use it first. Would you say that Acura uses a transmission from an Audi just because they both use manumatic?

 

[YSSMAN]

Can you show me where you can prove this? I can't find any information on this anywhere on the Internet.

I thought I had read it in Car and Driver or Motor Trend, in which the 5-speed automatic used in the 1st Generation X5s was based on that of the GM 5-speed found in the Cadillac CTS and SRX. I'm having a hard time finding it too, and I could be wrong... I have been known to read things incorrectly from time to time. This would be a good one for ///M-Spec...

It wasn't just the Red Line, it was all V6 Vues from 2004 to the present, and not only did they use Honda's 3.5-liter six-cylinder, they used Honda's 5-speed automatic transmission too.

Yes, you're right on the change to all-Honda-power, however the 5-speed unit was built by Aisin, not Honda, and saw duty in the Equinox and Torrent (with GM 3.5L V6s) as well.

Simply incorrect - they just all use Delphi's magnetic ride suspension. Cadillac just happened to use it first. Would you say that Acura uses a transmission from an Audi just because they both use manumatic?

I'm stretching it just a bit to pin it only on Cadillac, but yes the system was designed and built by GM and Delphi back in the early '90s for Cadillac alone. The first appearance was on the rather silly Allante which was a system largely determined by speed, and then was later updated in 1991 which took into consideration more performance statistics in determining how stiff the suspension should be.

...The unit we see in the Ferrari 599 and Audi TT is based on the same system we find beneath our Cadillacs and Corvettes here in America, and although nobody would admit it over in Italy or Germany, they can't hide the truth. Yes, I realize that they have been "re-tuned" by the respective companies, but that doesn't make them completely different.

It would be like calling the engine in the back of an Elise a Lotus engine because it had a Lotus-developed remap of the ECU, despite the fact that it is clearly designed by Toyota...

 

[skip0110]

The other side of the coin is nearly something you mentioned. The first Lotus Esprit had a Citroen gearbox. Lotus bought the rights to use it, as it made more financial sense to use a proven design rather than spend a fortune designing their own.

The Lotus Esprit also had AE86 taillights, but upside down.

And Vauxhall fog lights.

I think Famine told me that. 👍

Can you show me where you can prove this? I can't find any information on this anywhere on the Internet.

BMW has been using GM transmissions for a long time. Low-spec 3-series and 5-series had 4L30E's some years ago, and the X5 and X3 use a 6L50. Bentleys and Rollers use the 4L80E.

 

[Jim Prower]

My '88 Chevrolet Nova is an AE82 Toyota Corolla with a quick re-badge and four headlights.

 

[YSSMAN]

BMW has been using GM transmissions for a long time. Low-spec 3-series and 5-series had 4L30E's some years ago, and the X5 and X3 use a 6L50. Bentleys and Rollers use the 4L80E.

I was pretty sure I wasn't crazy, but it seems BMW is in denial about doing it...

 

[skip0110]

Ford sold Lincoln Mark 7's in the 80's with 2.4L BMW I6 diesels in them.

Betcha didn't know that.

 

[1X83Z]

Yes, you're right on the change to all-Honda-power, however the 5-speed unit was built by Aisin, not Honda, and saw duty in the Equinox and Torrent (with GM 3.5L V6s) as well.

I disagree. All sources agree that Honda built the transmission in the Vue. From Wikipedia:

starting in 2004, all 6-cylinder VUEs were equipped with the 250 hp (186 kW) Honda-manufactured L66 engine and a Honda transmission.

In fact, when I test drove the vehicle in early 2006, the dealer even told me Honda manufactures the transmission.

Yes, I realize that they have been "re-tuned" by the respective companies, but that doesn't make them completely different.

So then you would say Acura uses Audi's transmission because they run Tiptronic.

The Lotus Esprit also had AE86 taillights, but upside down.

Speaking of tail lights, if you want your mind blown, the Invicta S1 uses '01.5-'05 Volkswagen Passat tail lights rotated 90 degrees. Of course, this won't really blow your mind if you don't know what an Invicta S1 is. Here's a shot of the lights on the Invicta:

Compare:

BMW has been using GM transmissions for a long time. Low-spec 3-series and 5-series had 4L30E's some years ago, and the X5 and X3 use a 6L50. Bentleys and Rollers use the 4L80E.

I'm well aware of the transmission sharing in the 3- and 5-series models, but I have yet to see any proof they ran GM transmissions in the X5. Anyone?

Ford sold Lincoln Mark 7's in the 80's with 2.4L BMW I6 diesels in them.

What's even crazier is that BMW sold a diesel 5-series in the United States. No one knows that.

 

[Tornado]

What didn't the Esprit share with other cars?
The DeLorean had the PRV (as did countless other random and obscure cars), and the Lotus Carlton had a Corvette transmission. There are quite a few fun things invovling Aston Martin, too, but I can't remember any specifics.

 

[skip0110]

What's even crazier is that BMW sold a diesel 5-series in the United States. No one knows that.

It's actually the diesel 5 series drive train that is in the Lincoln Mark 7. They are about as rare as an Enzo.

 

[YSSMAN]

So then you would say Acura uses Audi's transmission because they run Tiptronic.

No, because it is not a Tiptronic transmission. It features a manual override setup, but NOT Tiptronic. Tiptronic was developed by Porsche and has been used exclusively in their products, and that of VAG. Acura's fancy name is Sequential SportShift, and shares nothing with the Tiptronic in design except for the basic idea... Completely different from that of the 599/TT and the MagnaRide.

 

[1X83Z]

It's actually the diesel 5 series drive train that is in the Lincoln Mark 7. They are about as rare as an Enzo.

They being the 524td or the Lincoln? Three years ago I was visiting Washington, DC and was out for a walk in Georgetown. I had just taken every photo on my camera, which at the time was a 35mm camera requiring actual film. Then I spotted a 524td parallel parked on a street. I recognized immediately what it was and ran six blocks to a camera store to buy film. I ran the entire way back, too, and when I returned there was no 524td. I noticed it a little bit up the road and began chasing after it. I still have the photos I took of the vehicle somewhere - the badge can very clearly be seen. That was in 2004 - possibly even 2003. I haven't seen one since, and I look at nearly every E28 5-series I see. Not long ago one was on eBay and included a good shot of the badge. I saved it to my hard drive, perhaps conceding that I'd probably never see one on the street again.

Completely different from that of the 599/TT and the MagnaRide.

I disagree; I think the analogy is the same. Porsche developed manu-matic; now just about every brand uses it under some name or another. Delphi and General Motors developed magnetic suspension; now several other brands use it. When I say x uses a part from y I mean x literally uses a part from y. That's not the case with your TT and 599 analogy.

 

[skip0110]

They being the 524td or the Lincoln?

The Lincoln -- under 500 made, probably many less remain -- but both cars are quite rare.

 

[Perfect Balance]

In fact, when I test drove the vehicle in early 2006, the dealer even told me Honda manufactures the transmission.

The Mitsubishi dealer told me the Lancer Evolution 8 MR was twin turbo...

 

[1X83Z]

The Mitsubishi dealer told me the Lancer Evolution 8 MR was twin turbo...

Hell. The guy who tried to sell me a '97 A4 told me he had "no idea" when the Tiptronic transmissions went into the cars. (1998 by the way) Of course that was a used car dealer.

 

[Poverty]

Supposedly some guy was awaiting a suspension part for his lamborghini, and the car part arrived, it fitted and everything, except that it had citroen emblems on it, but came with a lamborghini pricetag.

 

[Dave A]

You didn't read that on scoobynet did you? Care to elaborate?

 

[Poverty]

ive told you all i know on the subject. How true or not it is I dont know.

 

[Dave A]

So it's rubbish then.

I heared some guy with an Audi RS4 had to have his engine rebuilt, when he opened his bonnet to see the work he saw this.

 

[1X83Z]

I heared some guy with an Audi RS4 had to have his engine rebuilt, when he opened his bonnet to see the work he saw this.

I heard some guy went to the Saab dealer at night to get a new car. The next morning he woke up and looked outside and saw this:

He called the Saab dealer the next day, screaming about how they sold him a 10-year-old car when he wanted a new one. He got a full refund though. All $13,000.

 

[Gil]

Jeep has used GM trannies.
Ford Probe/Mazda 626 coupe...same car under the sheet metal.
Ford Escort GT/Mazda 323...Same car.
MG Midget and Austin America...Same 1275cc power plant.
Heck, the 1964 1/2 Mustang was really nothing more than a Falcon with a Face-lift. When the Cougar came along in 1967 it was nothing more than a Mustang with a Face lift.

AS has been said, The list is virtually endless.

It allows car companies to have a broader product line, without having the expense of making things too different for maintainence/repair purposes.
See Falcon/Mustang/Cougar example above. 3 cars--same basic mechanicals,
many $$$$ saved by FOMOCO.

 

[Tornado]

Jeep has used GM trannies.

That reminds me: Jeep briefly used GM engines as well.

All $13,000.

They go for that much these days? Wow.

 

[1X83Z]

They go for that much these days? Wow.

You could probably talk a dealer down to giving you the vehicle, but these are Saab consumers, so they're not the brightest.

 

[Gil]

You guys and your Saab stories...

 

[Jay]

VL series Holden Commodores were fitted with Nissan RB30E and optional RB30ET Inline 6 cylinder engines.


Borg warner/Tremec T56 6 speed manual......... I think everyone has had a play with that


As for the electromagnetic dampeners on the Cadillacs, Ferrari 599, Audi TT etc they may use the same technology but they certainly are not the same parts. Thats like saying Toyota and Nissan use the same engines because the the Supra and Skyline both came with Twin Turbo inline 6's.