CHEATING

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34
Canada
Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Tom_Catastrophic
I am sure I was cheated. I am only a D drive with B rating. On Red Bull, A car in front entered sand at 3rd last corner and just as I passed 3rd last corner all of a sudden sand car appeared before me. That is impossible! Has anyone seen something like this? I know that drivers with bad wifi jump around but they don't jump out of the sand
Thanks
 
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180
United States
United States
Not a cheat. Issue was due to lag on either your end or his (possibly both). Have seen lagging cars appear to go off track and reappear in front of me as well. What really happened was the driver made the turn just fine but your system lost its telemetry so it appeared to go off track. Car reappears in its proper position once the systems resynch/current telemetry becomes available.
 
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FPV MIC

Premium
3,069
Australia
Australia
GT-MIC
I am sure I was cheated. I am only a D drive with B rating. On Red Bull, A car in front entered sand at 3rd last corner and just as I passed 3rd last corner all of a sudden sand car appeared before me. That is impossible! Has anyone seen something like this? I know that drivers with bad wifi jump around but they don't jump out of the sand
Thanks
Lag.

Some good examples of how bad it can be.
 
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993
United States
Grand Rapids,MI
HaydenFan69
I had a FIA race where a car lagged for the entire race by appearing to be stuck on the grid. Was annoying as the lagged car caused the start of the race to be interrupted mid pack as his lag made us all behind him stop until the countdown finished. Really frustrating for me as I was the one immediately behind him. Some only had to slow to a crawl while I was forced to come to a complete stop.
 
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4,763
England
Nelson, England
GTP_ASH32
Yes as said it is lag. I've seen cars hit the barriers way off track only to reappear on track in front of me and raced cars that (on my screen) spend a lot time on the grass/gravel but still set the fastest lap and win the race. :lol:

There are some very strange things that lag can produce, almost nothing is unbelievable.


:gtplanet::cheers:
 
385
United States
United States
If lag is the answer how do you fix the problem . How do you tell if your equipment or the other guys equipment.
 
993
United States
Grand Rapids,MI
HaydenFan69
Just get the best internet you can afford, along with a wired connection to your console

I get 4 bars on wireless, but struggle with the occasional disconnect or drop in internet performance. I have wireless, but would recommend against if possible.

That will at least keep others from you potentially lagging. But as for others lagging; you can’t do anything. That’s on them and their connection.
 
34
Canada
Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Tom_Catastrophic
Just get the best internet you can afford, along with a wired connection to your console

I get 4 bars on wireless, but struggle with the occasional disconnect or drop in internet performance. I have wireless, but would recommend against if possible.

That will at least keep others from you potentially lagging. But as for others lagging; you can’t do anything. That’s on them and their connection.

I am full bars and wired. I think when someone has a red bar the driver should be dropped positions until problem solved.
 
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993
United States
Grand Rapids,MI
HaydenFan69
I am full bars and wired. I think when someone has a red bar the driver should be dropped positions until problem solved.

I fully believe the minimum requirement across the board for games and connections should be increased. Almost every time I’ve come across a red, one bar driver, it tends to see them drop, or very least bounce around and make trouble for everyone else.
 

Famine

GTP Editor, GTPEDIA Author
Administrator
72,976
United Kingdom
Rule 12
GTP_Famine
If lag is the answer how do you fix the problem . How do you tell if your equipment or the other guys equipment.
The general rule with P2P is if it's everyone else, it's you, but if it's just one guy it's them.

If you're wired into a router you have direct control over, every device attached to it (wired or wireless) has a static IP and your console's IP is in the router DMZ, you're as good as you're going to get unless you have a crappy ISP which doesn't comprehend online gaming. You can't do anything about the other guy, but keep an eye out for anyone with three yellow bars or worse and give them plenty of room if you're nearby.
 
385
United States
United States
I have a question for the lag problem , the driver who has three or less yellow bars and the driver with full green bars get in a penalty situation. I know the driver with the full green bars will serve . Now the driver with missing frames due to lag might not serve any penalty or be given less time to serve, is this a possibility ?
 

Famine

GTP Editor, GTPEDIA Author
Administrator
72,976
United Kingdom
Rule 12
GTP_Famine
I have a question for the lag problem , the driver who has three or less yellow bars and the driver with full green bars get in a penalty situation. I know the driver with the full green bars will serve . Now the driver with missing frames due to lag might not serve any penalty or be given less time to serve, is this a possibility ?
It's not entirely clear what you're asking here, but penalties do not depend on your connection strength.

What you might see is that a driver with a poor connection doesn't get the penalties you'd expect them to get, simply because they aren't where your console thinks they are. You might get hit by them, or they might run off the track according to your console, but on theirs they never touch you and stay on the track.
 
385
United States
United States
What you are saying that what I see on my console with good connections is not the same as the driver with bad connections on his console and he is seeing no problem.
 
929
United Kingdom
Behind you
What you are saying that what I see on my console with good connections is not the same as the driver with bad connections on his console and he is seeing no problem.
No his connection is trash, he might have no idea where anybody is.
 
5,663
Canada
Ontario
SvennoJ
SvenZ
What you are saying that what I see on my console with good connections is not the same as the driver with bad connections on his console and he is seeing no problem.

It doesn't matter who has the bad connection, it's two way traffic, you both suffer equally. The only difference is that the player with the bad connection has 'trouble' with all cars, not just you.

There can be a difference in up and down stream lag though. Having a laggy upstream connection is kinda like cheating when your downstream connection is fine. I've had that a couple times in the past with my ISP. The result is that you see everything as normal yet your telemetry reaches everyone else late, so everyone sees your car jumping around, possible getting hit by your car, while you see nothing wrong (except sometimes a car jumping out of the way as if hit by an invisible hammer, ie your car on their screen)

However if it's just general lag (up and downstream the same) then you both have the same result. Your brake, steering and acceleration input arrives with a delay on their console and vice versa. If you have 10ms ping and they have 150ms ping, data between you two has 80ms delay. Exactly the same if the ping times are reversed.

Another extreme is when a player has really bad downstream lag, so bad they end up driving alone on the track. However when their upstream still works, their car becomes an immovable obstacle on everyone else's screen. Cars only get effected by contact on the console of the one that drives that car. You can't actually touch any cars on your console, only be touched by other cars. Your (forward projected) car on their console is what can collide with their car and affect their course, then you see the result of that contact on your console. If your car is never there on their console, their car can't be affected. However since their car is present on your console, it will push you and bump you out of the way as if you're simply not there.

Most connections are asynchronous with better downstream than upstream. So most people don't really see any problems while causing problems with their connection. The extreme jumpiness comes from jitter though, not just constant lag. Next to lag, there is stability or lack there off. Sometimes data packets even arrive out of order, which is when you get those ridiculously behaving cars that shoot forward and back.



Where does this all lead to for penalties. Your console will rat on you for colliding with a (projected) car from an opponent, whether it's actually there or not. You touch a laggy car, you risk a penalty or SR Down, whether anything really happens or not. However if your forward predicted car punts someone else off on their console (you see their car suddenly missing a corner as if braking too late, in reality bumped forward by your car) nothing happens, free pass.

So, yes there is a 'benefit' to be had from driving really close behind a laggy player, or if you have lag yourself. Your brake input will arrive late on their console, making your car brake late on their console. You brake as normal, their car gets bumped forward by your car braking late on their console. It's the same when taking the inside in corners. With lag, your car will go wider on their console then it does on your own, potentially pushing them wide without you ever seeing any contact.

When you have a yellow connection or are near someone with a yellow connection, keep more distance.
 
385
United States
United States
I see what you are saying, at the line up before the race start we can tell by the yellow and green bars other drivers connections and our own. The thing we don’t see is other driver’s ping to server time that can produce the real time lag during the race. My question is when we see the yellow and green bars is it only driver connection hardware or connection hardware and ping to server time.
 
1,047
United Kingdom
Bristol, UK
OJBrit
I moved back in with my parents a couple of years ago to save for a house. My bedroom is at the back of the house and the router is connected to the tv in the living room at the front of the house. Only recently has the signal been strong and decent enough for online gaming in my room. I usually get full bars or 1 under against my name. But sometimes it can drop.
In the recent MX-5 race at Suzuka my signal dropped to yellow just after the start. On the small straight between turns 1 and 2 every other car started swarming around the place. Then it settled after turn 2 no issues. It was hilarious. I saved the replay to have a laugh.
It reminded me of the meme with the dog sitting having a drink surrounded by fire. 'This is fine.'
Essentially it can happen at any moment and I have seen those on 1 bar red behave fine.
 
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Groundfish

(Banned)
4,363
United States
United States
Sometimes reading these threads can make a person wonder how it’s possible to race online at all.
My ping is almost 100 ms all other parameters are full on the in game connection quality check.
I’ve never had a problem racing super close with others.
You can over think online racing easily. I’ve had no issues unless someone’s red.
If they are red from S America they will teleport.
No I don’t understand it. It just works perfect except for red bar guy.
You can’t go uh oh yellow can’t pass. Often early morning weekends I’ll be yellow-racing other yellows with no noticeable effect.
Red is another story.
 
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5,663
Canada
Ontario
SvennoJ
SvenZ
I see what you are saying, at the line up before the race start we can tell by the yellow and green bars other drivers connections and our own. The thing we don’t see is other driver’s ping to server time that can produce the real time lag during the race. My question is when we see the yellow and green bars is it only driver connection hardware or connection hardware and ping to server time.

The bars you see reflect the lowest of all measurements between that player and the server. Some people's connection fail certain tests in whatever the game uses are parameters (the 5 parameters it shows when checking someone's connection) and get displayed as 1 red bar. However some of those 1 red bar connections are perfectly fine racing, better than yellow connections.

Ping is not reliable either as it only measures ping time to a VPN server for people using such a service. You see many South Americans racing online with ping times of 16ms or even lower (impossible, light takes longer to make the trip). All you see is the connection between the GTS server and the VPN server used. The bars are more accurate in this case as they test the whole trip.

The bars also display the result of measurements over the last minute. If you get a single hick up in your line, it might display you as yellow or worse for a while before switching back to green.

Yellow to red doesn't always mean lag. Green does always mean good. (Which can still fail at any moment, such is the nature of the internet)

Anyway the bars show the lowest outcome of round trip measurements over the past half minute or so. Depending on your distance to the server, some people can never get 5 green bars no matter how fast their own internet.

NA region is too big, spanning over 14,000 km which already takes 46 ms for light to traverse in a vacuum. Fiber cable runs at 70% of that speed and makes many twists, turns and hops. For reference, actual ping times between cities
uP0gVXH.jpg
 
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385
United States
United States
I have learned a lot and I thank you for your patience. I have one hypothetical question, is it possible for someone who has the best connections, the best ISP, the lowest ping and all green bars. Could someone get an advantage to throttle back to yellow bars to make lag time the advantage of not getting penalties.
 

Famine

GTP Editor, GTPEDIA Author
Administrator
72,976
United Kingdom
Rule 12
GTP_Famine
I have learned a lot and I thank you for your patience. I have one hypothetical question, is it possible for someone who has the best connections, the best ISP, the lowest ping and all green bars. Could someone get an advantage to throttle back to yellow bars to make lag time the advantage of not getting penalties.
Your console gives you penalties. There'd be no advantage to making your connection worse, because it only goes on what it sees you doing, and that's not affected by your connection.
 
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385
United States
United States
We are talking about lag time and how it can effect the out come of any given race. We are not talking penalties given we are talking about penalties being seen by server, consoles and software.
 
5,663
Canada
Ontario
SvennoJ
SvenZ
We are talking about lag time and how it can effect the out come of any given race. We are not talking penalties given we are talking about penalties being seen by server, consoles and software.

What I stated earlier

There can be a difference in up and down stream lag though. Having a laggy upstream connection is kinda like cheating when your downstream connection is fine. I've had that a couple times in the past with my ISP. The result is that you see everything as normal yet your telemetry reaches everyone else late, so everyone sees your car jumping around, possible getting hit by your car, while you see nothing wrong (except sometimes a car jumping out of the way as if hit by an invisible hammer, ie your car on their screen)

If you can delay your upstream data, without affecting your downstream data, you have a good cheat going.

I have also seen people use lag switches (rare but with my amount of races, 12K+, I caught a couple). Suddenly and repeatedly dropping to red in a crucial corner to move back to green after. It was most noticeable on Blue moon bay to overtake through the field at T1. I assume the effect for the player is that all cars go on straight into the wall so they have a clear path to hot lap on. However it is so rare it must be very unreliable, either you get disconnected or get in trouble by the other cars delayed / missing telemetry.

There is a reproduceable way to cause a standing start for yourself and everyone behind you, yet there's not really any benefit to that.

It is possible to drive by yourself in the same race and simply show up on the finish grid after, your car appearing to be stuck somewhere during the race. There must be some way to trigger this, likely by having such bad upstream data that the server ignores your input, yet for some reason still lets you be part of the race. Then you can hot lap without the risk of penalties against the rest who have to deal with each other. I've seen this happen in combination with the standing start for a double whammy. The detached racer gets to hotlap by himself while the rest face a standing start.

In the end though, what's the point. You still need to be the fastest to win. No cheat makes you faster and often good drivers in the lead draft pass each other to set better lap times than possible on your own.
 

Famine

GTP Editor, GTPEDIA Author
Administrator
72,976
United Kingdom
Rule 12
GTP_Famine
We are talking about lag time and how it can effect the out come of any given race.
Ultimately, aside from collisions only seen or felt by one party, it can't.
We are not talking penalties given we are talking about penalties being seen by server, consoles and software.
They're not two different things.

As I said, your console is the one that gives you penalties, based on what it sees you doing. Your internet connection, anyone else's internet connection, and lag play no role in it. Everyone else sees your penalty floating above your car based on what your console is telling their consoles your penalty is. What they see on their screens is what your console is telling their consoles. There isn't a way to cheat your own console out of giving you a penalty by making your connection worse, because that isn't how it works.
 
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385
United States
United States
I don’t like any cheating of any kind it takes the best out of “best you can be” in any thing you do in life.

I been told online racing is on a server and our consoles are more like a controller of inputs for the racing we as drivers are using. As far as our console giving the penalty it is seen on the server then sent to the console of each driver to give a penalty, if i am wrong I stand corrected. The topic of lag time and connections was explain very well and I think it will help make for good competition.
 

Famine

GTP Editor, GTPEDIA Author
Administrator
72,976
United Kingdom
Rule 12
GTP_Famine
I been told online racing is on a server and our consoles are more like a controller of inputs for the racing we as drivers are using.
The only time that's true is in the FIA races. Everything else is peer-to-peer (P2P), which means the consoles are both servers and clients.
As far as our console giving the penalty it is seen on the server then sent to the console of each driver to give a penalty, if i am wrong I stand corrected.
No, it doesn't work like that, even in the FIA races where there is a server. Your own console is judge, jury, and executioner (and it rats you out to everyone else too). The server is only there to provide stability. With fixed servers, everyone connects to a single server and someone with a weak connection affects only themselves. In P2P everyone is connecting to everyone else, and one weak connection can affect everyone.
 
5,663
Canada
Ontario
SvennoJ
SvenZ
I don’t like any cheating of any kind it takes the best out of “best you can be” in any thing you do in life.

I been told online racing is on a server and our consoles are more like a controller of inputs for the racing we as drivers are using. As far as our console giving the penalty it is seen on the server then sent to the console of each driver to give a penalty, if i am wrong I stand corrected. The topic of lag time and connections was explain very well and I think it will help make for good competition.

Nope, all racing is done on your own console.

The difference between lobbies on one side, and daily / FIA races on the other is:

Lobby racing: One person is the host and all connections are routed through the host. If the host's internet is not up to par, everyone suffers. Also if the host is far away, some people have a long round trip.

Daily / FIA: Everyone connects to a high speed dedicated server or rather router. All the server does is receive data from all clients, duplicate it and send it out to all connected clients. Ideally the server is located in the middle of all the connected clients.

There are / have been different versions of the penalty system where either your console does all the judging or the server does some judging. However as far as racing goes, there are as many versions of the race going at the same time as there are people in the race. You race in real time, your inputs directly translate to your car on your screen. This is the way to do it since otherwise the input lag would be too high and inconsistent (try racing on google stadia or via remote play)

This means that all the data concerning the other cars on the screen is not in real time. All the inputs of other cars are routed to your console which then creates a best guess on where they are 'now' in your time frame. That means that some cars are forward predicted more than others. A car from which you receive data with a 100ms delay will be 'moved forward' on your screen by 1 meter if traveling at 10 m/s (36kph / 22mph). The faster cars go the more they get moved forward to appear where they should be in real time in relation to your car.

To take it to the extreme, GR.1, coming up to Mulsanne on Sarthe at 110 m/s drafting at 396 kph / 246 mph, if the car behind has 200 m/s lag to your console, his braking input will reach you 22 meters too late. The driver behind might be braking on time, yet his car on your console will still travel 22 meters at top speed before the brake input is received.
 

Groundfish

(Banned)
4,363
United States
United States
See maybe all that’s true, but yet how does that explain me seeing myself on my console racing bumper to bumper in gr1 on Le Mans and no touching.
Talking to others after about how amazing it was...Seeing shared replays from others matching my own?
I mean online racing seems to work. I just don’t think it works like oh you can’t get within 25 meters under brakes.
That’s ridiculous to say when everyone does it (racing closely) all the time every single day in sport mode all over the world...
Something doesn’t add up about all this.
My reason?
Because online works.
It would be pointless to online race if it didn’t work!
 
5,663
Canada
Ontario
SvennoJ
SvenZ
See maybe all that’s true, but yet how does that explain me seeing myself on my console racing bumper to bumper in gr1 on Le Mans and no touching.
Talking to others after about how amazing it was...Seeing shared replays from others matching my own?
I mean online racing seems to work. I just don’t think it works like oh you can’t get within 25 meters under brakes.
That’s ridiculous to say when everyone does it (racing closely) all the time every single day in sport mode all over the world...
Something doesn’t add up about all this.
My reason?
Because online works.
It would be pointless to online race if it didn’t work!

That's because PD has some really smart people and under normal circumstances the forward prediction works quite well. There is leniency build into the system, cars don't immediately make contact on intersection (and jump back when the input is received) Plus you have learned to brake a little earlier when following behind.

Replays are reconstructions btw, I've seen plenty discrepancies between my own live recorded footage, my own saved replay footage and the pov of others of the race. I've also seen the effects of phantom hits plenty times. Not seeing it, doesn't mean it's not there. You can't cheat the laws of physics, you can only try to compensate for them.