China

[TonyJZX]

americans were dumb enough to do vietnam, iraq and afghanistan

i feel like japan suffering due to the americans isnt enough for the chinese. also you sort of conflate the americans defeating japan as penance enough for what they did in manchuria

that is what is called 'happenstance'

in the same way that american invading afghanistan just so happened to help womens rights there but really, it wasnt even a secondary goal

further i think the whole world is eager to cry tears of piss for the milllions killed during the cultural revolution and and the holmodor but really its just a talking point for the west.. much like the armenian holocaust

these sorts of things are an analog for a lot of the west turning away jewish immigrants during ww2

we wont fight a war to save the jews but if it happen that we save the jews while fighting the nazis well then thats ok

 

[MatskiMonk]

folks that had to come here to Europe, as usual, to bail you out, and still today most of the people I see (in all of europe) still dismiss the americans as if they had done nothing for us, mocking them, etc, but specially the french are the first to do this, those who should be the first to bow before them and thank them for your freedom.

I understand the sentiment of what you're saying, and I don't disagree, but I think things should be kept in perspective. Firstly, the actions of the USA during WW2 do not put any of their actions since above criticism, nor the American people born since. I don't know how many US WW2 vets there are left, but obviously we owe them our thanks - along with thanks to those from any allied nation. To the many people still alive that lost their father, it's important to acknowledge what they lost in order to help us achieve freedom, and the many many people that never knew their grand parents because of it too. I was fortunate, my Grand father came back alive (RAF, Burma).

The notion of bowing specifically before them and thanking them for our freedom now, that holds a lot less water. I would not criticise you for Franco's actions during WW2, why would I? But by the same token, I don't feel compelled to thank any Americans I know now either.

Also, yes, a lot of American soldiers died during that conflict, I believe the majority were killed in (or over) Europe, but a big chunk of them died in the Pacific theatre after the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbour, but the vast, vast, majority of civilian American people were never under direct threat, they did not have to endure what European nations did (or Japan for that matter), I think that's one reason why your average European might not feel that inclined to be that sympathetic towards your average American now - German bombs literally fell within half a mile of where I live now - there aren't many people in the USA that can say that. And when it comes to losses, you also cannot ignore the simple raw loss of military personnel and civilian lives experienced by the Soviet Union, or China, that overwhelmingly dwarf those of the US (or UK).

tl;dr We should be thankful for the sacrifice of those that made it, but that's not open-ended for all new comers, nor should it be restricted to the USA.

 

[Famine]

I understand the sentiment of what you're saying, and I don't disagree, but I think things should be kept in perspective. Firstly, the actions of the USA during WW2 do not put any of their actions since above criticism, nor the American people born since. I don't know how many US WW2 vets there are left, but obviously we owe them our thanks - along with thanks to those from any allied nation. To the many people still alive that lost their father, it's important to acknowledge what they lost in order to help us achieve freedom, and the many many people that never knew their grand parents because of it too. I was fortunate, my Grand father came back alive (RAF, Burma).

The notion of bowing specifically before them and thanking them for our freedom now, that holds a lot less water. I would not criticise you for Franco's actions during WW2, why would I? But by the same token, I don't feel compelled to thank any Americans I know now either.

Also, yes, a lot of American soldiers died during that conflict, I believe the majority were killed in (or over) Europe, but a big chunk of them died in the Pacific theatre after the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbour, but the vast, vast, majority of civilian American people were never under direct threat, they did not have to endure what European nations did (or Japan for that matter), I think that's one reason why your average European might not feel that inclined to be that sympathetic towards your average American now - German bombs literally fell within half a mile of where I live now - there aren't many people in the USA that can say that. And when it comes to losses, you also cannot ignore the simple raw loss of military personnel and civilian lives experienced by the Soviet Union, or China, that overwhelmingly dwarf those of the US (or UK).

tl;dr We should be thankful for the sacrifice of those that made it, but that's not open-ended for all new comers, nor should it be restricted to the USA.

And if you think France should thank the USA for liberation in WW2, wait until you hear about France's role in the US War of Independence which allowed the USA to exist in the first place.

 

[Imari]

China is currently the most aggressive expansionist nation on the planet and their "soft power" has escalated into a full on "soft war" against numerous countries, primarily Taiwan.

That's pretty debatable considering that America also exists on the planet. Something something Afghanistan?

 

[Keef]

That's pretty debatable considering that America also exists on the planet. Something something Afghanistan?

I'm aware that America sucks but China is doing the opposite of what we attempted and partially accomplished in Afghanistan.

 

[MIE1992]

That's pretty debatable considering that America also exists on the planet. Something something Afghanistan?

I don't think it's really comparable. From what I get, we invaded Afghanistan under the delusion we could stop terrorism after 9/11. The PRoC, on the other hand, wants to prevent the RoC from being its own nation, which in turn is because the modern RoC was founded by the losers of the Chinese civil war, which ended in '49 with a CCP victory.

 

[Cherryturbo]

Slightly off topic, but would just like to pass comment on this:

And something that sours me about France still to this day. You owe everything to the Americans, as well as many other european countries (but mine). The blood of a whole generation of young american folks can be still smelt in your northen beaches, and not that young (also australian and english, and more, but the bulk was american of course)

Actual personnel involved in D-Day landings as follows;

73,000	Number of British soldiers who landed on June 6, 1944
59,000	Number of US soldiers who landed on June 6, 1944

34,250	Number of US soldiers disembarked at Omaha Beach on June 6, 1944
28,845	Number of British soldiers disembarked at Sword Beach on June 6, 1944
24,970	Number of British soldiers disembarked at Gold Beach on June 6, 1944
23,250	Number of US soldiers disembarked at Utah Beach on June 6, 1944
21,400	Number of Canadian soldiers disembarked at Juno Beach on June 6, 1944
15,500	Number of Americans parachuted on June 6, 1944
7,900	Number of British paratroopers dropped on June 6, 1944

On D-Day, Allied forces consisted primarily of American, British and Canadian troops but also included Australian, Belgian, Czech, Dutch, French, Greek, New Zealand, Norwegian, Rhodesian and Polish naval, air or ground support.

 

[TonyJZX]

And if you think France should thank the USA for liberation in WW2, wait until you hear about France's role in the US War of Independence which allowed the USA to exist in the first place.

I think there's that gap of time.

WW2 is still even now fresh with us given media and film has kept it fresh.

WW1 is even less so. Although one may say that since America wasnt involved until 1917 then American media doesnt really care too much about it.

I know that the Commonwealth cares a lot about WW1.

To bring that back, it says a lot about how people feel about what is current events.

To the Chinese, the events of the Cultural Revolution, WW2, Unit 731 and even going back to the late 1800s still resonates with some there.

I would suppose to the west, these things dont matter and the Chinese should just 'get over it'. They do and they dont.

When they need to make a talking point about millions killed by Stalin or Mao Ze Dong and 'communism' then they care. Otherwise...

 

[AerodyManiac]

A bit late, but I still wanted to reply.

I think of China as an analog to France.

France is a country that is what it is today due to the consequences of WW2.

Some of us think of France as a nation of 'cowardly soldiers' with that joke of selling rifles 'never been used, dropped once'.

But that couldnt be further from the truth. Prior to the 20th century I dont think France lost any military engagement.

So why is a France a nuclear power and why is France a prolific military force and arms suppler? Its kind of obvious. They dont want a repeat of the recent past.

And China is the same way. They're a 4,000 yr old country that they think has had a dark period for the last few hundred years.

Some of it was own goal but some of it included stuff like a foreign nation going to war with you for the right to sell narcotics to your population! How about a relatively smaller nation invading Manchuria and doing all kinds of diabolical experiments on your population and getting away with it scot free? The world has forgotten but Pepperidge Farm remembers. How can a county that invented gunpowder not have utilitised that for guns? That leads to things like the boxer rebellion/battle of peking.

So China wants to get back what she feels is rightfully 'hers'.

I get why the CCP is the way it is. China today is shaped by the forces of the west. Why does China invest heavilty in armaments? The same reason as France.

Now the China population... they dont have much power, they're the pawns. Its kind of a bread and circuses situation.

If you have a good job and family life and you can save your money and buy material things, a house and a car then what do these events matter to you?

People are obsessed with status and brand names, so what else is new.

But heres a popultion with no access to guns or any form of dissent is crushed by one of the worlds largest armies and surveillence states.

Futher if you have a billion and a half people you could lose 250 mil and still have a billion strong to count on. SO what does it matter?

About Taiwan. One thing I notice is that some of the largest enterprises in CHina orginated in Taiwan. So what would happen in the event of an invasion of Taiwan?

I think CHina is happy with the status quo. They like this uneasy stability.

in the same way there's an uneasy stabiltiy with North Korea. Taiwan and north Korea are buffers for China.

I could be wrong, but I think in the case of a Chinese invasion of Taiwan, the Taiwan-based enterprises would just be assimilated under China, and they would not help the Taiwanese government, at least not by self-motivation. Business owners comply with rules and regulations not due to factors relating to morality, but simply because they see commercial value in it, and I’d say in the case of an invasion of Taiwan (which would most likely result in the collapse of the Taiwanese government without any outside help), the same also applies to allegiance to a government or another.

As for the Chinese population, I agree that a large part of them are pawns without a voice, but I think there're also some of them (hopefully a small minority) who'd readily believe in whatever the Chinese government says and stand ready to sabotage attempts by other people/s to gain more rights. I'm not even sure of the 'believing' part; they could just be doing that for their own gains. It's this bit of the population that I have issues with.

About the nature of the CCP, I agree that historical contexts and humility of the past several hundred years play quite a big role in shaping China into what it is today, maybe even constituting what is going on in Xi's mind. But I still don't think they should go down that route. After all, once a people has been split into two or more peoples geographically, they will each, as time passes, form a differing ideology and culture that makes it extremely difficult, if not impossible, for them to re-merge into an undifferentiated group. Sure, you can go ahead and force your way into agglutinating them back into that same homogeneous pile, but I think it's going to be at significant losses for the people involved. And if Xi does that, I'm not sure what separates his actions from those of the aggressors of the past, Chinese or western.

-----

Just to contribute a bit more to the discussion of fear, personally I am quite apprehensive to the possibility of Chinese hegemony (or even sole Chinese leadership) in international politics in the future, and while personal experience plays a large part in shaping this fear, I think it can also be attributed to the Chinese government's incredibly firm grip on narratives within the nation, and what shape it will take (and the ramifications for 'the international community') if the Beijing government wins in this discursive battle with Washington. We've witnessed a tightening room for civil action in China post-1989/6/4 (at least when it comes to matters related to political structures), and what were promises of democracy (or at least talks admitting its importance) made during the Hu/Wen era have been completely eschewed after Xi got on the throne. Couple this with China's current advocacy of 'no international intervention of internal political affairs', and it is not difficult to see democracy moving further away from areas around the world where it is still in infancy while China tries to reinterpret the working definition of democracy, maybe by incorporating and prefixing economic development before it, as we've seen in the UNHRC.

 

[sirjim73]

A bit late, but I still wanted to reply.


I could be wrong, but I think in the case of a Chinese invasion of Taiwan, the Taiwan-based enterprises would just be assimilated under China, and they would not help the Taiwanese government, at least not by self-motivation. Business owners comply with rules and regulations not due to factors relating to morality, but simply because they see commercial value in it, and I’d say in the case of an invasion of Taiwan (which would most likely result in the collapse of the Taiwanese government without any outside help), the same also applies to allegiance to a government or another.

As for the Chinese population, I agree that a large part of them are pawns without a voice, but I think there're also some of them (hopefully a small minority) who'd readily believe in whatever the Chinese government says and stand ready to sabotage attempts by other people/s to gain more rights. I'm not even sure of the 'believing' part; they could just be doing that for their own gains. It's this bit of the population that I have issues with.

About the nature of the CCP, I agree that historical contexts and humility of the past several hundred years play quite a big role in shaping China into what it is today, maybe even constituting what is going on in Xi's mind. But I still don't think they should go down that route. After all, once a people has been split into two or more peoples geographically, they will each, as time passes, form a differing ideology and culture that makes it extremely difficult, if not impossible, for them to re-merge into an undifferentiated group. Sure, you can go ahead and force your way into agglutinating them back into that same homogeneous pile, but I think it's going to be at significant losses for the people involved. And if Xi does that, I'm not sure what separates his actions from those of the aggressors of the past, Chinese or western.

-----

Just to contribute a bit more to the discussion of fear, personally I am quite apprehensive to the possibility of Chinese hegemony (or even sole Chinese leadership) in international politics in the future, and while personal experience plays a large part in shaping this fear, I think it can also be attributed to the Chinese government's incredibly firm grip on narratives within the nation, and what shape it will take (and the ramifications for 'the international community') if the Beijing government wins in this discursive battle with Washington. We've witnessed a tightening room for civil action in China post-1989/6/4 (at least when it comes to matters related to political structures), and what were promises of democracy (or at least talks admitting its importance) made during the Hu/Wen era have been completely eschewed after Xi got on the throne. Couple this with China's current advocacy of 'no international intervention of internal political affairs', and it is not difficult to see democracy moving further away from areas around the world where it is still in infancy while China tries to reinterpret the working definition of democracy, maybe by incorporating and prefixing economic development before it, as we've seen in the UNHRC.

Re China's approach to differing ideologies/cultures, I would refer you to a certain ethnic minority of Muslims as being China's approach...

 

[DK]

I hope nobody here has bet the house on Evergrande.

 

[Dotini]

Suddenly China is overflying a lightly garrisoned Taiwanese offshore island with large numbers of warplanes.

A US analyst said the chances of an attack are not high.

China sends 77 warplanes into Taiwan defense zone over two days, Taipei says | CNN

Taiwan has reported a record number of incursions by Chinese warplanes into its air defense identification zone (ADIZ) for the second day in a row, Taiwan's Ministry of National Defense said on Saturday night.

www.cnn.com

 

[Keef]

Suddenly China is overflying a lightly garrisoned Taiwanese offshore island with large numbers of warplanes.

A US analyst said the chances of an attack are not high.

China sends 77 warplanes into Taiwan defense zone over two days, Taipei says | CNN

Taiwan has reported a record number of incursions by Chinese warplanes into its air defense identification zone (ADIZ) for the second day in a row, Taiwan's Ministry of National Defense said on Saturday night.

www.cnn.com

Taiwan's forces aren't weakened enough to force them to submit yet. China's soft tactics force Taiwan to scramble their jets more often, force them to do more maintenance, more cost, more downtime, more fatigue to personnel, etc. It's like a war of attrition basically. China has a tremendous numerical advantage when it comes to readiness. The long term goal would be to simply weaken and fatigue Taiwan to the point of giving up.

 

[Imari]

Taiwan's forces aren't weakened enough to force them to submit yet. China's soft tactics force Taiwan to scramble their jets more often, force them to do more maintenance, more cost, more downtime, more fatigue to personnel, etc. It's like a war of attrition basically. China has a tremendous numerical advantage when it comes to readiness. The long term goal would be to simply weaken and fatigue Taiwan to the point of giving up.

Also, even if China is going to attack eventually it's to their advantage to play this psychological warfare game first. After a few months of non-event intrusions by China, it's a lot more likely that the Taiwanese response becomes degraded or sloppy when an actual attack comes.

Or it's possible that China just wants to stir up anti-Chinese sentiment from the rest of the world for a bit. China isn't without it's own internal issues at the moment, and an easy way to get people to pay less attention to those is to have an immediate external threat.

 

[Joey D]

China isn't without it's own internal issues at the moment, and an easy way to get people to pay less attention to those is to have an immediate external threat.

Ya, I have to assume the most immediate thing of concern is the potential default of the Evergrande Group. I'll admit, I don't really understand how having that one company default is going to essentially nuke the world economy, but plenty of people who are way smart than I am when it comes to the market are saying it's a possibility.

 

[Keef]

Ya, I have to assume the most immediate thing of concern is the potential default of the Evergrande Group. I'll admit, I don't really understand how having that one company default is going to essentially nuke the world economy, but plenty of people who are way smart than I am when it comes to the market are saying it's a possibility.

It seems like the economic scheme Evergrande was using was a China-only thing, something about the differences between the federal government and provincial governments. Also, the Evergrande debt is about half the size of Lehman Brothers before the 2008 crisis...but obviously the Lehman Brothers and other defaults were directly related to a global economic system, not just a countrywide accounting scheme. The problem would be the side effects, the related industries and suppliers who would get screwed, because I'm sure many of those company are also involved in international production.

Covid really screwed up a lot of things and they all seem to be related. Ugh.

 

[sirjim73]

It seems like the economic scheme Evergrande was using was a China-only thing, something about the differences between the federal government and provincial governments. Also, the Evergrande debt is about half the size of Lehman Brothers before the 2008 crisis...but obviously the Lehman Brothers and other defaults were directly related to a global economic system, not just a countrywide accounting scheme. The problem would be the side effects, the related industries and suppliers who would get screwed, because I'm sure many of those company are also involved in international production.

Covid really screwed up a lot of things and they all seem to be related. Ugh.

There have been, and always will be shocks that come along from time to time. As you refer to, it's only 12 years since the last one. And yet many have still not learned the lesson.

Evergrande is not in trouble because of Covid specifically, it's in trouble because it failed to prepare for a shock of any kind.

If it was not Covid, it would have been something else.

Any big business that cannot realise that will never survive in the long term, in my opinion.

In the same way individuals should try to have some protection from shocks personally where they have the chance to do so. If I lose my job I have enough saved to last me a year, because I have gone without certain things to build a buffer.

If you are a business that cannot take a shock, or an individual that cannot take a shock, you are essentially relying on luck being on your side.

"Do you feel lucky? Well, do ya..."

 

[Dotini]

Ya, I have to assume the most immediate thing of concern is the potential default of the Evergrande Group. I'll admit, I don't really understand how having that one company default is going to essentially nuke the world economy, but plenty of people who are way smart than I am when it comes to the market are saying it's a possibility.

It could actually be happening now.

 

[sirjim73]

Meanwhile, China does what it always does...

The CCP exists for one reason and one reason only. To maintain the existence and total control of CCP in China. And anything that is perceived as a threat is removed.

Even if that means having to kidnap a grand slam winning tennis player. Having now presumably explained to her sufficiently that her entire family will be "safer" if she does and says what she is told, we now start to see the gradual stage managed solution that dictatorships always employ.

Have to say, it's not often that I agree with Ian Duncan Smith (UK Conservative MP), but without free and verifiable evidence relating to Peng Shuai, no overseas dignatories should be at the Winter Games.

And in any case, let's be clear they shouldn't be there anyway due to the Uighur genocide.

But we've long since sold our soul to the CCP for cheap trade. So that won't happen.

A question for the forum here - how MANY despicable things does the CCP have to do, before doing business with them becomes not worth the sacrifices that have to be made?

And to respond to possible comments:

1 - China = CCP, CCP = China. You cannot separate them, they are one and the same whilst the CCP is in control. Even more so when a large percentage of the population are party members (openly) and many more are members secretively, who need to keep it secret so they can spy on the rest of the population.

2 - yes, I agree other countries are party to atrocious acts, we should not deal with Saudi Arabia either for example.

 

[Imari]

A question for the forum here - how MANY despicable things does the CCP have to do, before doing business with them becomes not worth the sacrifices that have to be made?

That assumes that the people in charge of "doing business with them" have any morals at all, or are likely to be faced with the consequences of any "sacrifices" that may be made.

I'm sure it's awfully easy for a lot of people in power to keep doing business with China when all they see is profits for themselves and they're not particularly bothered by whatever humanitarian atrocities may be occurring.

 

[UKMikey]

When you buy something from China, you buy it from a Chinese citizen or a Chinese company (or both), because despite what China claims, it is not communist. When you buy oil from Saudi Arabia, you're more buying it straight from the government. I understand that taxes can help the Chinese government, but it's really not a fair comparison.

Refusing it trade with Chinese people will not help the Uighurs. Refusing to buy from a multinational company like Nike unless they refuse to use Uighur labor might. The more economically isolated China is as a nation, the more authoritarian they're likely to become.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but then given this what's the best way to get them to stop being like Hitler as @Dennisch asserts? I guess he would see this as a policy of appeasement, which is where the conversation tends to go when you compare situations to the start of World War II.

Perhaps reform of international law would be a start. It sounds like acting like the Nazi party would or should be in contravention of such law?

 

[Danoff]

I'm not disagreeing with you, but then given this what's the best way to get them to stop being like Hitler as @Dennisch asserts? I guess he would see this as a policy of appeasement, which is where the conversation tends to go when you compare situations to the start of World War II.

Perhaps reform of international law would be a start. It sounds like acting like the Nazi party would or should be in contravention of such law?

I'm just going to be brutally honest here and say that there's not much way to get them to stop acting like Hitler.

Cutting off trade with China would essentially be a precursor to war. If you're going to war with a country, you don't want the country to win the war, meaning you want to weaken all of its industry and all of its military. That's not what we want here. We're not headed to war with China, including over their recent human rights treatment.

I think Hitler would have gotten away with the holocaust if he hadn't been so aggressive in taking over other countries.

 

[Dotini]

It looks as though China and Russia are linking ever more closely in terms of trade, military alliance and diplomacy. If, in the worst event, Russia were to shut off all oil, gas and coal it supplies to Europe, China could absorb it all given the time to build additional pipelines.

 

[sirjim73]

Peng Shuai: Weibo post sparked 'huge misunderstanding'

The Chinese tennis star again urges fans not to worry about her in an interview with Western media.

www.bbc.co.uk

L'Equipe should be pretty ashamed of this, in my opinion.

 

[andrea]

 

[Danoff]

Peng Shuai: Weibo post sparked 'huge misunderstanding'

The Chinese tennis star again urges fans not to worry about her in an interview with Western media.

www.bbc.co.uk

L'Equipe should be pretty ashamed of this, in my opinion.

That's all rather Soviet.

 

[Keef]

That's all rather Soviet.

I say we keep letting them make Soviet-style mistakes because that further guarantees Western economic and strategic success.

 

[Danoff]

I say we keep letting them make Soviet-style mistakes because that further guarantees Western economic and strategic success.

We don't seem to have much choice in the matter.

 

[Keef]

We don't seem to have much choice in the matter.

Apparently we actually do but apparently they can't be talked about lol. It appears we're doing nothing but that's actually one of the best decisions for now. Just playing the game. Something stupid will happen eventually, though. One of the two sides will get impatient.

 

[Danoff]

Apparently we actually do but apparently they can't be talked about lol. It appears we're doing nothing but that's actually one of the best decisions for now. Just playing the game. Something stupid will happen eventually, though. One of the two sides will get impatient.

What choices specifically do you have in mind? Some sort of rescue mission?