Civic Type R will be axed.

  • Thread starter Thread starter Leonidae@MFT
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The Type-R celebration brought a tear to my eye while I was at the BTCC today.
 
nk4e
We have the Si which is kind of our Type R; to my belief.
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Eh, I think the Euro Type R is just a little better than our Si version. Maybe, maybe not, but I'd rather have a Type R. Reminds me of the old Integras.
 
GT_Prologue5
Eh, I think the Euro Type R is just a little better than our Si version. Maybe, maybe not, but I'd rather have a Type R. Reminds me of the old Integras.
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It is actually worse. In terms of engineering and such.
 
nk4e
We have the Si which is kind of our Type R; to my belief.
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No no no. The Si is nowhere near what the TypeRs are. Not even close. It's like comparing a Focus ST to a Focus RS.
At least that's my opinion from having driven the japanese type r civics and integras as well as the rsx type s. Maybe the most recent examples aren't as good?
 
The Euro Type R is roughly (roughly) equivalent to our Si. Similar power and weight (ours is a tad heavier). Ours has a better suspension setup, but theirs probably has better suspension tuning.
 
As stated:

Azuremen
It is actually worse. In terms of engineering and such.
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The European Type R makes do with a torsion beam rear end because it's based on the Honda Fit chassis. That gives it better boot space. But that compact torsion beam, despite having great toe control under compression, is a big compromise... not much travel and not as much flexibility in tuning as the multi-link rear-end in the American Si.

So while the Euro Type R is likely faster than the Civic Si, a Civic Si in the same state of tune could probably beat the hatchback. Of course... until somebody puts them side by side, we don't know how big the difference is.

Note... the Japanese Type-R, which is the best of the lot, is built on the sedan platform... not the hatchback... for the suspension reasons stated above, plus taking advantage of the added stability of the sedan layout. Despite being on the longest body style, it's lighter than the other two, because it uses more aluminum than the others. It's faster than the European Type R and the Civic Si... by quite a lot.
 
Toronado
The Euro Type R is roughly (roughly) equivalent to our Si. Similar power and weight (ours is a tad heavier). Ours has a better suspension setup, but theirs probably has better suspension tuning.
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Ah, gotcha. This whole time I was under the impression the EUR was about the same as the JP type r.
 
niky
The European Type R makes do with a torsion beam rear end because it's based on the Honda Fit chassis. That gives it better boot space. But that compact torsion beam, despite having great toe control under compression, is a big compromise... not much travel and not as much flexibility in tuning as the multi-link rear-end in the American Si.
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Also important to remember that although a torsion beam is a compromise, it doesn't also mean that it's inherently inferior. As Renault (Clio Cup, Trophy, Williams), Peugeot (205 GTI, 106 and 306 GTI and Rallye) and Ford (Puma, Racing Puma) have proven in Euro-market models that'll out-handle any FWD machine from anywhere else in the world (save for perhaps a DC2 Type R, and opinion seems to vary on that one).
 
Oddly enough, I think Canada got what could be considered the closest to the Japanese Type-R (The Acura CSX Type-S). Same sedan shell as the JDM car (with the better-looking head and tail lights compared to the US Civic), and the Si's 2.0L engine. Undoubtedly different suspension tuning and probably a fair amount more sound deadening, but it'd probably make the easiest starting block if somebody wanted to make a USDM equivalent.

Niky - True, I suppose the Clio's engine is a few years newer, if only a handful. A turbo Fit sounds like a ball, too!
 
Actually, from what I gather, they were released around the same time. The trouble is... the K20 is built with more leeway to produce more power, but there's no way it'd Euro V compatible while making those levels of power. So rather than face a downgrade, I think Honda will want to keep the K20's pride intact and retire it. I'd agree.

homeforsummer
Also important to remember that although a torsion beam is a compromise, it doesn't also mean that it's inherently inferior. As Renault (Clio Cup, Trophy, Williams), Peugeot (205 GTI, 106 and 306 GTI and Rallye) and Ford (Puma, Racing Puma) have proven in Euro-market models that'll out-handle any FWD machine from anywhere else in the world (save for perhaps a DC2 Type R, and opinion seems to vary on that one).
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Which is why I mentioned flexibility. In the end, you can make anything handle well... a cart-axle is no hindrance to a Clio, a Cobalt or a Mustang (oh, okay... "live" axle) in terms of ultimate performance (at least, in street-car spec)... in fact, you can consider the torsion beam as the ultimate anti-roll bar. But it makes it that much more difficult to tune in a good ride/handling compromise... Cars with stiff anti-roll bars corner great, but have big issues with single-wheel bumps. Torsion-beam cars are even worse unless you tune all stiffness out of the rear end.

A good example of how good double-wishbones are is the MX-5. A soft, waffly ride, but with excellent handling characteristics thanks to the way the suspension geometries change under hard cornering.

Still... through using very specific bushing deflections and creative geometries, many makers are finding the performance they want without giving their cars a jarring-stiff ride. Well... not stiff to me... but there are still some who complain. :lol:
 
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Emm... not really

Have you driven any of the cars mentioned by HFS ?

I have driven all of the cars mentioned (apart from the Racing Puma), and in the case of the ford and peugeots especially the balance of handling/ride quality is excellent, peugeot especially were masters at this making their own dampers in house. As HFS says these are arguably the best handling FWD cars ever made despite having a rear beam axle, but dont be fooled into thinking the ride quality was bad, they would put most german cars to shame in the "supple" suspension department

You mention the MX-5 as a good example, I've driven them aswell and in my opinion the ride on that car is equally as hard if not harder than any of the cars mentioned , but then in my experience most Japanese sports/performance cars do have a hard ride, the Evo I currently drive included.

OT. I really hope there is going to be more high revving NA Type Rs in the future, I would hate to see them resort to turbos (like the BMW M Division) as I would feel they had lost the thing that made them special.

I hope they can make a new engine (maybe larger capacity like the old accord/prelude?) that will meet Euro V emmisions but still be a NA high revving madman of a powerplant :D
 
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Enigma
Emm... not really

Have you driven any of the cars mentioned by HFS ?
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Nope. I'd love to, though. If I ever get the chance to go to Europe, I'll hit you UKGTPers up. Especially since I don't think I can afford a British hotel. :lol:

Enigma
I have driven all of the cars mentioned (apart from the Racing Puma), and in the case of the ford and peugeots especially the balance of handling/ride quality is excellent, peugeot especially were masters at this making their own dampers in house. As HFS says these are arguably the best handling FWD cars ever made despite having a rear beam axle, but dont be fooled into thinking the ride quality was bad, they would put most german cars to shame in the "supple" suspension department
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German cars which are much heavier and require firmer springs and dampers to stay on the road.

Light weight allows you to have a softer suspension set-up while still maintaining excellent handling. For big, heavy cars, a multi-link / double-wishbone set-up allows more leeway in suspension tuning, which is why the luxury marquees use it almost exclusively on their top-of-the-line models, as it allows them to give the best handling possible with the best ride possible.

I've said it's "more difficult"... not impossible. And that's up to a point. The point where an anti-roll bar on a comparable multi-link model would have to be stiff enough to cause the same single-wheel bump problem that a torsion-beam axle has. I've ridden on "supple" cars that go all out of sorts over bumps. Best case scenario is double-wishbones with electronically controlled anti-rollbars... Goes hard in the corners, soft everywhere else. Perfect!

Mind you... I'm not slighting any hot hatch with a torsion beam simply for having one. I've actually been on your side of the argument before... some of the best cars I've driven have had torsion beams. I'm just saying that theoretically, the Civic with the multi-link rear end has greater potential... which is why Honda themselves chose the multi-link car for the JDM model. Though why they chose the sedan style is beyond me. :lol:

Enigma
You mention the MX-5 as a good example, I've driven them aswell and in my opinion the ride on that car is equally as hard if not harder than any of the cars mentioned , but then in my experience most Japanese sports/performance cars do have a hard ride, the Evo I currently drive included.
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Well... I'd say it depends... the NC MX-5 (before the facelift) was very soft. Lots of lean and body roll... but the excellent suspension geometry gave it great handling despite that.

Enigma
OT. I really hope there is going to be more high revving NA Type Rs in the future, I would hate to see them resort to turbos (like the BMW M Division) as I would feel they had lost the thing that made them special.

I hope they can make a new engine (maybe larger capacity like the old accord/prelude?) that will meet Euro V emmisions but still be a NA high revving madman of a powerplant :D
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It may be possible. But Euro V regulations are absolutely ridiculous.
 
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You know... if they actually decided to bring the JDM CTR everywhere, they would get some of their original fan base back. They don't have anything left for a auto enthusiast now except the Si and that isn't something most of us desire. It's nice, but it's no CTR.
 

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