Clarkson's 2006 "Good Car Bad Car" List

[YSSMAN]

Well, I'm still getting used to Clarkson. Up until about a year ago, if one of you would have asked me who he was, I wouldnt have known. Give me a bit more time, and let me watch a bit more BBC America and some Top Gear stuff, and I'll catch up. I still don't think many Americans "get" Monty Python, but, whatever.

I hope Peugot gets their game together, as the rumor has been in the US that they are going to try to re-enter the market sometime around 2010. I'm sure that they would be financially fine if they stayed in Europe, but there are plenty of Americans who have been calling for models like the 206/207 to be sold here, so who knows?

...If were going to be talking French cars to come to the US, I would rather have Renault or Skoda (is it French or German? I know its owned by VW...) come stateside, maybe to some extent Citroen over the other two... Yes, yes, I do realise that Citroen and Peugot are the same company, but Citroen is far more appealing...

 

[Jay]

Didn't he sell the Ford GT?

Ford returned his money and held if for him while giving him a Aston Martin DB9 to use while he decides to buy the Ford again or forget about it completely. As far as I know he did take the GT back.

 

[GilesGuthrie]

Well, I'm still getting used to Clarkson. Up until about a year ago, if one of you would have asked me who he was, I wouldnt have known. Give me a bit more time, and let me watch a bit more BBC America and some Top Gear stuff, and I'll catch up. I still don't think many Americans "get" Monty Python, but, whatever.

I hope Peugot gets their game together, as the rumor has been in the US that they are going to try to re-enter the market sometime around 2010. I'm sure that they would be financially fine if they stayed in Europe, but there are plenty of Americans who have been calling for models like the 206/207 to be sold here, so who knows?

...If were going to be talking French cars to come to the US, I would rather have Renault or Skoda (is it French or German? I know its owned by VW...) come stateside, maybe to some extent Citroen over the other two... Yes, yes, I do realise that Citroen and Peugot are the same company, but Citroen is far more appealing...

The French are great at making small cheap cars that run forever. It's the more expensive ones that give all the trouble. I would have thought that there should be a market for them in the large cities, where their small size and good economy would stand them in good stead.

Skoda is owned by VW, but is originally a Czech brand. To my knowledge, all their cars are still made in The Czech Republic, but there's a big VW parts bin influence, so a lot fo the componentry will be from elsewhere.

The three French manufacturers are all struggling. They've achieved dominance in their home market, and are in steady-state throughout the rest of their markets. I think that if they want to really grow as companies, they're going to have to go back to America.

 

[skip0110]

The three French manufacturers are all struggling. They've achieved dominance in their home market, and are in steady-state throughout the rest of their markets. I think that if they want to really grow as companies, they're going to have to go back to America.

They are going to have a harder time here than the Korean marques. "Runs like a French car" is quite the popular expression here....

 

[Wolfe]

The reason most American car fans are more sensitive than others is that they're constantly getting dumped on from several other angles and sources in addition to Clarkson's rants. After a while, you kind of get sick of it. See supercars.net for a particularly nasty example.

American car fans dump on import fans, import fans dump on american car fans, both dump on European car fans, and European car fans dump on both.

Domestic drivers are considered to be nothing but stupid hicks. Import drivers are considered to be nothing but retarded teenagers. European-car drivers are considered to be nothing but snobby assholes.

Clarkson dumps on cars from all regions, and anyone who thinks otherwise just refuses to acknowledge it as being so.

 

[Elegy]

American car fans dump on import fans, import fans dump on american car fans, both dump on European car fans, and European car fans dump on both.

Domestic drivers are considered to be nothing but stupid hicks. Import drivers are considered to be nothing but retarded teenagers. European-car drivers are considered to be nothing but snobby assholes.

That's a GROSS oversimplification. Firstly, any car can be an "import" if you can't get it outside your home country. Also, the worst criticism, as far as I've ever been able to see, always seems to fall on our models. No other region is so condemned as for such a huge group of people to believe that all its cars suffer from the exact same friggin' defect (that of being a stiff, ill-handling dinosaur with a "needlessly" massive engine). European cars and Asian cars get dumped on, yes...but largely for each individual car's real or perceived defects. American cars are usually written off as a GROUP.

It is this mass stereotyping that invokes such a ferocious defense reflex in the American car fanbase. The fact that people try to claim that no special stereotype exists furthers this aggravation. That's the long and short of it.

 

[Wolfe]

That's a GROSS oversimplification. Firstly, any car can be an "import" if you can't get it outside your home country. Also, the worst criticism, as far as I've ever been able to see, always seems to fall on our models. No other region is so condemned as for such a huge group of people to believe that all its cars suffer from the exact same friggin' defect (that of being a stiff, ill-handling dinosaur with a "needlessly" massive engine). European cars and Asian cars get dumped on, yes...but largely for each individual car's real or perceived defects. American cars are usually written off as a GROUP.

I know what the definition of "import" is supposed to be, but I thought writing "asian car fan" (to include Korean makes as well as Japanese ones) sounded a bit odd...

So Japanese/Korean cars aren't grouped into a single category as well? They're more than just tiny, wimpy, worthless rust-bucket hatchbacks that make a lot of ugly noise, struggle to reach highway speeds, and won't survive in a 15mph crash? This is hyperbole, of course, but you can find the same attitude, taken to different extents, all over the place.

It is harder to group European cars into one group (or perhaps that's just me, considering they're my personal favorites), but it can still be done. Car prices and repair prices are seen as beyond extreme, the power gains from all of the various complicated technologies used are seen as negligible, and the cars are considered finicky and prone to breaking down. Overall, European cars are just looked down upon as being "too fancy," overpriced, and vastly overrated by the press.

It is this mass stereotyping that invokes such a ferocious defense reflex in the American car fanbase. The fact that people try to claim that no special stereotype exists furthers this aggravation. That's the long and short of it.

And it is that over-sensitive defense reflex that led to this perception:

 

[Elegy]

I know what the definition of "import" is supposed to be, but I thought writing "asian car fan" (to include Korean makes as well as Japanese ones) sounded a bit odd...

I see your point, but this kind of segues into something I'm going to mention below...

So Japanese/Korean cars aren't grouped into a single category as well? They're more than just tiny, wimpy, worthless rust-bucket hatchbacks that make a lot of ugly noise, struggle to reach highway speeds, and won't survive in a 15mph crash? This is hyperbole, of course, but you can find the same attitude, taken to different extents, all over the place.

I've personally not really seen this nearly as often as stereotyping of American cars as oversized, overpowered, ill-handling tanks. What I usually see more of in this case is (continuing from above) stereotyping of the OWNERS of these cars as ignorant FNF fanboys who all think that the key to winning a race is having the biggest wing and the most of t3h NAAAAAAAWWWWWWWSSSSS.

It is harder to group European cars into one group (or perhaps that's just me, considering they're my personal favorites), but it can still be done. Car prices and repair prices are seen as beyond extreme, the power gains from all of the various complicated technologies used are seen as negligible, and the cars are considered finicky and prone to breaking down. Overall, European cars are just looked down upon as being "too fancy," overpriced, and vastly overrated by the press.

Again, I haven't seen this thrown so overarchingly. Most critics I've run into (and I've met plenty) have been smart enough to restrict these complaints to individual cars or, at most, individual marques. I've yet to hear anyone speak of cars from TVR or the Ariel Atom in that manner, for example.

And it is that over-sensitive defense reflex that led to this perception:

Conceded. Though I still feel that there's a reason for it all underneath the anger.

 

[Wolfe]

I've personally not really seen this nearly as often as stereotyping of American cars as oversized, overpowered, ill-handling tanks. What I usually see more of in this case is (continuing from above) stereotyping of the OWNERS of these cars as ignorant FNF fanboys who all think that the key to winning a race is having the biggest wing and the most of t3h NAAAAAAAWWWWWWWSSSSS.

Wait, that isn't the key to winning a race??



I see what you mean, that stereotyping the drivers of "imports" is more common than the cars themselves, but I still stand by my point that Japanese/Korean cars are seen as just as wimpy/worthless/overrated as American cars are oversized/overpowered/ill-handling.

For an example, go check out the comments on the videos at Streetfire.net -- the war between "imports" and domestics rages on in nearly every video, even if the video has nothing to do with either kind of vehicle. I assume that you're a domestic fan yourself, and, as a result, find yourself involved in (or at least assaulted by) these ubiquitous disputes...believe me, looking at it from a "neutral" point of view (as a Euro-car fan), the fight is hardly one-sided.

Again, I haven't seen this thrown so overarchingly. Most critics I've run into (and I've met plenty) have been smart enough to restrict these complaints to individual cars or, at most, individual marques. I've yet to hear anyone speak of cars from TVR or the Ariel Atom in that manner, for example.

Yeah, it doesn't really work as well for European makes, but I can change that last sentence for ya, and these are my honest opinions --

TVRs are garbage, and would be more reliable if they were built from toothpicks and chewing gum. They produce pretty good handling numbers, but tend to be more touchy than a coin resting on its edge, and you might as well flip that coin to determine whether you'll spin out or plow off into the wall. They're vastly overrated by British car geeks, and their performance is hardly outstanding -- the only reason they are recognized world-wide is because they've been featured in games like PGR or Gran Turismo, and because they're ugly as sin. Despite all of this, I like them anyway.

The Ariel Atom is engineered well, and its performance is truly outstanding. However, it is seriously overpriced, not for the performance you get, but for the amount of "car" you get, which is next to none. No windshield, no doors, no roof, no bodywork, and a tiny cargo space. Again, I still like it anyway.

 

[Elegy]

Wait, that isn't the key to winning a race??



I see what you mean, that stereotyping the drivers of "imports" is more common than the cars themselves, but I still stand by my point that Japanese/Korean cars are seen as just as wimpy/worthless/overrated as American cars are oversized/overpowered/ill-handling.

Perhaps so, but I also stand by my point and belief that the American cars get group-hammered more often, as that's the way it's always been in my personal experience.

For an example, go check out the comments on the videos at Streetfire.net -- the war between "imports" and domestics rages on in nearly every video, even if the video has nothing to do with either kind of vehicle. I assume that you're a domestic fan yourself, and, as a result, find yourself involved in (or at least assaulted by) these ubiquitous disputes...believe me, looking at it from a "neutral" point of view (as a Euro-car fan), the fight is hardly one-sided.

You assume fairly correctly, but again, I've always found myself being on the side of the defense, trying in vain to convince people that American cars aren't woefully unsuitable for anything with turns in it. Sure, I've seen counter-attacks against European cars thrown in those arguments, but they've always been just that, counter-attacks.

Yeah, it doesn't really work as well for European makes, but I can change that last sentence for ya, and these are my honest opinions --

TVRs are garbage, and would be more reliable if they were built from toothpicks and chewing gum. They produce pretty good handling numbers, but tend to be more touchy than a coin resting on its edge, and you might as well flip that coin to determine whether you'll spin out or plow off into the wall. They're vastly overrated by British car geeks, and their performance is hardly outstanding -- the only reason they are recognized world-wide is because they've been featured in games like PGR or Gran Turismo, and because they're ugly as sin. Despite all of this, I like them anyway.

Funny, I've always felt that the majority of TVRs (Cerbera doesn't count) were, using the term quite loosely, the "low end" of British sportscar manufacture. They've no airbags, ABS, or TCS, and they're quite affordable compared to stuff like Aston Martin's bad boys. The fact that they manage to perform nicely (1.24.6 for the Sagaris on Top Gear) in spite of all that is quite commendable if you ask me. On looks...I agree with you on the Sagaris, but not the T350 or the Tuscan; those two look nice to me.

The Ariel Atom is engineered well, and its performance is truly outstanding. However, it is seriously overpriced, not for the performance you get, but for the amount of "car" you get, which is next to none. No windshield, no doors, no roof, no bodywork, and a tiny cargo space. Again, I still like it anyway.

Again, I find this very interesting. Most people I know praise the Atom for being low-priced but high-powered. Heck, I've had friends who normally HATE European cars give props to the Atom.

 

[Wolfe]

You assume fairly correctly, but again, I've always found myself being on the side of the defense, trying in vain to convince people that American cars aren't woefully unsuitable for anything with turns in it. Sure, I've seen counter-attacks against European cars thrown in those arguments, but they've always been just that, counter-attacks.

To put it simply, you're not the only domestic fan out there. I didn't mean to imply that you were a *ahem* "Domestic-drivin' E-thug," and yes, american cars often receive scorn that they don't deserve. However, my point is that domestic fans dole out more than enough insults towards "import" fans to even things out.

Funny, I've always felt that the majority of TVRs (Cerbera doesn't count) were, using the term quite loosely, the "low end" of British sportscar manufacture. They've no airbags, ABS, or TCS, and they're quite affordable compared to stuff like Aston Martin's bad boys. The fact that they manage to perform nicely (1.24.6 for the Sagaris on Top Gear) in spite of all that is quite commendable if you ask me. On looks...I agree with you on the Sagaris, but not the T350 or the Tuscan; those two look nice to me.

I didn't say TVR's were overpriced, but considering the poor engineering and lack of comforts or features, that's probably true anyway.

Again, I find this very interesting. Most people I know praise the Atom for being low-priced but high-powered. Heck, I've had friends who normally HATE European cars give props to the Atom.

Well, as I said, the speed-vs-price ratio is good. It's just that the price is a bit high for what is basically an engine with wheels attached. The 160hp base model goes for £20,000 (about $35000), the mid-range 220hp model goes for £24,000 (about $42000), and the top-of-the-line supercharged 300hp model goes for £30,000 IIRC (about $53000).

 

[YSSMAN]

Everyone is going to hate some part of the the auto industry, and certain divisions are going to hate more than others. As a cross breed between American and European tastes, I generally hate Japanese cars. Although I'm not completely sure why (my family has had several great Japanese cars throughout the years), I just prefer the American Muscle car and the European über-sedan over some fartcan-equipped Japanese car...

Its a matter of taste I suppose, and no one is going to agree with anyone on any particular car. No single side is ever going to build the perfect car, but some have come close. The Americans had the '67 Chevrolet Corvette, the Europeans had the Jaguar XKE, and the Japanese had...well... The Toyota 2000GT?

 

[Wolfe]

some fartcan-equipped Japanese car...

Hey Elegy, see this??

J/k YSSMAN.

Its a matter of taste I suppose, and no one is going to agree with anyone on any particular car. No single side is ever going to build the perfect car, but some have come close. The Americans had the '67 Chevrolet Corvette, the Europeans had the Jaguar XKE, and the Japanese had...well... The Toyota 2000GT?

You're damned right it's a matter of taste -- I'd never nominate a Jaguar for the title of "the perfect car." The Corvette is probably a good choice, though. As for Japan, I'd probably vote for something like the Toyota Mark II Chaser...sportiness, practicality, good looks, and Toyota reliability...

 

[Scaff]

TVRs are garbage, and would be more reliable if they were built from toothpicks and chewing gum. They produce pretty good handling numbers, but tend to be more touchy than a coin resting on its edge, and you might as well flip that coin to determine whether you'll spin out or plow off into the wall. They're vastly overrated by British car geeks, and their performance is hardly outstanding -- the only reason they are recognized world-wide is because they've been featured in games like PGR or Gran Turismo, and because they're ugly as sin. Despite all of this, I like them anyway.

While I agree with the vast majority of those points, as generally TVRs are unreliable (changing with the russian versions - but thats been said before), they smell of glue and have always been a bit touchy on the limit (understatement of the decade).

The points I would disagree with you on are

Ugly - but that is soooo personal.

Over-ratted by britsh car geeks - yes some do, but the vast majority (including owners) are more that aware and honest about the problesm. We love them because they are a handful, they are a challenge, look amazing (IMO) and little else sounds as good. Plus you should see these things race, 20 Tuscans going int o a corner, now that is fun.

Hardly outstanding performance, in terms of hadlings, as you say the limits are high, but difficult to exploit. However in a straight line they are amazing value for money (Tuscan S 0-100 in 8.08 seconds).


Regards

Scaff

 

[Wolfe]

While I agree with the vast majority of those points, as generally TVRs are unreliable (changing with the russian versions - but thats been said before), they smell of glue and have always been a bit touchy on the limit (understatement of the decade).

The points I would disagree with you on are

Ugly - but that is soooo personal.

Over-ratted by britsh car geeks - yes some do, but the vast majority (including owners) are more that aware and honest about the problesm. We love them because they are a handful, they are a challenge, look amazing (IMO) and little else sounds as good. Plus you should see these things race, 20 Tuscans going int o a corner, now that is fun.

Hardly outstanding performance, in terms of hadlings, as you say the limits are high, but difficult to exploit. However in a straight line they are amazing value for money (Tuscan S 0-100 in 8.08 seconds).


Regards

Scaff

Yeah, I can't argue with any of that, but you should know that my complaints were on the light-hearted side.

 

[Scaff]

Yeah, I can't argue with any of that, but you should know that my complaints were on the light-hearted side.

Don't worry, I know.

Scaff

 

[Dave A]

Oh damn, no, must resist urge to sound like TVR fanbo.... Oh sod it, TVR's are the bomb, plain and simple .

Like Scaff said, they have faults, but being a handfull isn't one of them, they're designed to be and the people that buy them like them to be. As for outstanding performance, I'd say for the price, most certainly. The limit's on most are hard to reach, but the capability is there for a Tuscan to whoop a 911 GT3's arse.

Then you have a car like the Sagaris which can be exploted a lot easier, that's been described as one of the finest handling cars ever. Where TVR's fall short, isn't so much the reliability any more, not in the AJP6 engined models. But it's the build quality, the trim fittings arn't the best, great interiors, until the trim comes loose after 10 minuets, some of the switches arn't fitted well ect. TVR's arn't for everyone, if they're for you, you'll love them, they'll be the best thing with 4 wheels. If they arn't for you'll struggle to see why you wouldn't spend a little more for a better built car that's easier to control.

They arn't so hard to drive fast you're tosing a coin as to weather you crash or not, I KNOW that for a fact, if you watch TopGear and you see JC talkng about them, he exagerates, like he does with every car, they're harder to drive fast than say a Noble M12 (not counting the Sagaris), but you can have soo much fun in one at any speed. Can you tell I like TVR's

Finally, overrated by British car geeks, that's the same as me saying the Viper and Vette are by American car geeks and the GT-R and Supra are by Japanese car geeks, sure it's true in all cases, but thats the point there, it happens all over the globe. Me I don't think I overrate them that much, I might sound like I do and I'm definitely biased towards them, but I'm totally aware of that bias that exists.

 

[Scaff]

Blimmey L4S, I'm impressed, very restrained for you. 👍

Just a couple of point I would pick up on

but the capability is there for a Tuscan to whopp a 911 GT3's arse.

That very much depends on the driver, and what generation/variant of Tuscan we are talking about here. Take a driver of the same ability and my money would be on the GT3, make it a wet track and the money would be in my pocket (and you know my love of TVRs - so that not a biased comment).

The new Tuscan 2 is most certainly now taking the fight to Porsche, etc (see this weeks Autocar), but its still a big leap to say it would whopp a GT3.

....isn't so much the reliability any more, not in the AJP6 engined models.

Umm, you might not want to mention the words AJP6 and reliable around too many people who owned the early cars they were fitted to.

The first few runs of AJP6's were (Im afraid) very unreliable. It was one of the darker times in TVRs history and nearly sent the company under (as did build quality issues and reliability on the first Tuscans).

Even the most die-hard TVR fan would be hard pushed to say that TVRs reliabilty record has even been anything more than patchy. Only in the last 18 months or sa has any major improvements been made.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Dave A]

With the Tuscan, lets say a Tuscan S v 911 GT3 point, if you had two poor drivers the GT3 probably, if you had two average drivers I'd say the GT3 again but only just, you have to remember that they arn't such a walk in the park to drive on the limits either. If you had two experienced drivers, I'd say the Tuscan would win, whcih goes in hand wth the few recorded lap times you can find of TVR's at tracks.

As for AJP6, the first lineup had a problem with the engine overheating I believe, but the only TVR engines that have had a lot of ongoing problems were the AJP8's and since that was the engine TVR adopted for the cerbera, the biggest selling TVR ever, it caused a few worries for the company, some people spent thousands on repairs each year with AJP8 engined models. That's why they stuck an AJP6 into a Cerbera though, it turned out to be a hell of a lot more realiable, still not upto premium car standards, far from it, but compared to the AJP8, you get the picture. Currently the AJP6 isn't a bad engine the cooling is sorted and theres not been any other recurring issues with owners since the first run, but they'll never get the engine as relaible as say a BMW M3 engine, I don't think we'll ver see that in a TVR. With the build quality, that is still an issue, even today, it's improving but it's not fixed yet.

 

[Danny]

One day we'll have one whole thread in which TVR is never mentioned and debated.

*Sigh*

One Day.

 

[Dave A]

We already have several, they're in the conversation forums .

 

[Wolfe]

I was wondering how long it would take you to show up, live4speed... I could imagine you sitting at home when I hit the "Submit Reply" button, suddenly jumping up and exclaiming, "my TVR sense is tingling!"

Also, you should go fix that lack-of-TVR-ness in those conversation forum threads...

 

[Dave A]

I could imagine you sitting at home when I hit the "Submit Reply" button, suddenly jumping up and exclaiming, "my TVR sense is tingling!"

I like that.

 

[Poverty]

TVR's do need a highly skilled driver to get fast laps out of them as they are a handful. They should fix that maybe because many people are put off by it. The main attraction of imprezas and evos is that it makes crap drivers seem good.

 

[YSSMAN]

I personally like the idea of a car that can bite you in the ass. You have to treat your TVR well for it to treat you right in return; Its the perfect balance! Thats how racing cars were for decades, and thats why so many racing heroes of yore are just that, heroes.

BTW: If the TVR isnt brought up in some disscussion, I'm sure either the Corvette or GTR will be brought up eventually... They always are...

 

[Danny]

Double Post.
See below, chaps.

 

[Danny]

I personally like the idea of a car that can bite you in the ass. You have to treat your TVR well for it to treat you right in return; Its the perfect balance! Thats how racing cars were for decades, and thats why so many racing heroes of yore are just that, heroes.

BTW: If the TVR isnt brought up in some disscussion, I'm sure either the Corvette or GTR will be brought up eventually... They always are...

And that would make it the fourth "Official GTP Sign Of The Apocalypse™".

 

[Dave A]

TVR's do need a highly skilled driver to get fast laps out of them as they are a handful. They should fix that maybe because many people are put off by it. The main attraction of imprezas and evos is that it makes crap drivers seem good.

They don't need to fix that, TVR are low volume, they're an enthusiasts car, if they make them easier to drive on the limit so 8000 more people consider one, they arn't going to sell 8000 more cars, because they don't have 8000 more cars to sell. Pretty much every TVR that comes out fo the factory is sold shortly after, right now they don't need to appeal to a different group of people. When they increase production they won't either, because it won't be a 10 fold increase, it'll be at most doubling production over x years, and they already have the potential buyers to cover that kin of an increase by far.

 

[YSSMAN]

I want to know when TVR is going to attempt selling one of their models here in the US. There is allready a pretty substantial fan base, and I'm sure that a car like the Segaris or T350C would sell incredibly well. I herd they were selling TVRs in Japan, and being that they are more concerned about safety than those in the US, we will see what happens...

I wonder if TVR could use the loophole Noble uses to sell the M12 here? Ship the car without the driveterrain, to be purchased later, so it can be classified as a kit car...

 

[YSSMAN]

I thought it might be fun to add Car and Driver's top ten cars for 2005:

- Best Sports Sedan: Acura TSX (Honda Accord with a 2.4L I4)
- Best Sport Compact: Audi A3 2.0T
- Best Luxury Sport Sedan: BMW 3-Series
- Best performance Car: Chevrolet Corvette
- Best Full-Size Sedan (read exec. sedan): Chrysler 300
- Best Muscle Car: Ford Mustang
- Best Family Sedan: Honda Accord (US-spec model)
- Best Roadster: Mazda MX5
- Best Sports Coupe: Mazda RX8
- Best Luxury Sports Car: Porsche Boxster