Commercial Vechicles

[Cap'n Jack]

I think Holden make some fair good commercial veicles. I realy like the utes and crewmans.

 

[Freddie]

Im aware of that LTI's have wheelchair ramps as standard, and that the TXII might be the death sentence to the Crown Vic - as a taxi cab. LTI is currently in the process of having their cab evaluated by american taxi companies - Top Gear Magazine had an article on it, and all the cab-drivers who tested it, loved it.

The Crown Vic is also facing competition in the future against a purpose-designed police-vehicle, but that's a different story. Might be the final blow to this ancient car, though.

 

[1X83Z]

'99? 2000? Something like that. Belongs to a family member, not me, so I'm not quite sure on the year.

Very reliable though. Not a single problem.

Still. You couldn't put me in any previous-generation Hyundai. Except the XG300, if it counts.

Im aware of that LTI's have wheelchair ramps as standard, and that the TXII might be the death sentence to the Crown Vic - as a taxi cab. LTI is currently in the process of having their cab evaluated by american taxi companies - Top Gear Magazine had an article on it, and all the cab-drivers who tested it, loved it.

What are the LTI and TXII again?

 

[Firebird]

Still. You couldn't put me in any previous-generation Hyundai. Except the XG300, if it counts.

Meh. It does what is asked of it.

What are the LTI and TXII again?

London Taxis International.

The TXII is the newest incarnation of the classic "London Taxi". You know, the old Austin FX4?

LTI has started a distribution compny for the North American market (London Taxis of North America, or something to that effect), but they won't sell very many, with prices starting at $39,500 in the States (and $64,000 in Canada!!!!).

The Crown Vic has absolute supremacy over the taxi market in North America. The LTI TXII is not even a blip on the radar.

 

[1X83Z]

Meh. It does what is asked of it.

Yeah, but what about the ones that don't? I'm not a fan of Hyundai quality until the current generation, and even now, the Accent isn't doing much for me.

The Crown Vic has absolute supremacy over the taxi market in North America. The LTI TXII is not even a blip on the radar.

So what the hell is he talking about?

PS - watch for the Five Hundred!

 

[Firebird]

Yeah, but what about the ones that don't? I'm not a fan of Hyundai quality until the current generation, and even now, the Accent isn't doing much for me.

Like I said, it's been very reliable. "Quality" isn't an issue at all, at least in this particular Elantra.

That said, I don't think I'd pony up the cash for a previous generous Elantra either, but it ain't my car, so I don't really care.

As far as sub-compacts go the Accent is fairly good. In need of a redesign or refresh (I've heard a new model is on the way for '06). Actually, now that I think about it, Hyundai Canada is introducing a 4-door hatchback (5-door?) version of the Accent for model year '05. If you were shopping for a sub-compact, would you consider any single one better than the other? Accent, Echo, Aveo, Rio (Wave, Swift+, Echo hatchback up here too): they're all pretty much equal.

So what the hell is he talking about?

Beats me. I mean, the proposition of a London taxi is kind of interesting, but when you factor in the price (which is the single reason it will never catch on over here), the more complex and expensive maintenance (Crown Vics are essentially the same thing as a 25-year-old LTD anyway; by now they're dirt cheap to produce and repair), and the less powerful 2.4L Ford diesel, cab companies have no incentive whatsoever to stop using the Crown Vic.

Neither do police departments, for the same reasons.

The only real threat to even a smidgeon of the market for cabs and cop cars is the Chevrolet Impala.

PS - watch for the Five Hundred!

As a cab, or just in general?

 

[1X83Z]

As far as sub-compacts go the Accent is fairly good. In need of a redesign or refresh (I've heard a new model is on the way for '06). Actually, now that I think about it, Hyundai Canada is introducing a 4-door hatchback (5-door?) version of the Accent for model year '05. If you were shopping for a sub-compact, would you consider any single one better than the other? Accent, Echo, Aveo, Rio (Wave, Swift+, Echo hatchback up here too): they're all pretty much equal.

The exception being that the Accent, which does have side airbags standard, does not offer anti-lock brakes (actually, as of the 2005 model, which was released eight days ago, ABS is finally available). That's a huge omission which really shows its age.

The Accent is a nasty, tiny peace of crap - Rio too. I wouldn't get any of the group you named - I'd get a used car, and I don't think there's a single logical reason why one wouldn't. Right?

The only real threat to even a smidgeon of the market for cabs and cop cars is the Chevrolet Impala.

It should've been the Dodge Intrepid, but Dodge wasn't biting.

As a cab, or just in general?

As a cab. Either the Crown Vic goes to the fleet market and they stop selling it to the public, or they start unloading Five Hundreds with police packages. There's no real reason why a police car or taxi needs rear-wheel drive. I mean, I realise maintainence on the Crown Vic is easy, but it simply can't stay around forever. The Five Hundred seems like the perfect alternative.

 

[Firebird]

The exception being that the Accent, which does have side airbags standard, does not offer anti-lock brakes (actually, as of the 2005 model, which was released eight days ago, ABS is finally available). That's a huge omission which really shows its age.

My perspective on "options" is somewhat... different... than most. I'd rather get a vehicle that has manual door locks, manual windows, manual seats, no A/C, no ABS and no airbags than one with all that junk. Maybe I'm a stodgy curmudgeon, but I haven't needed whizbang gizmos before, therefore I don't feel the need for them now.

The Accent is a nasty, tiny peace of crap - Rio too. I wouldn't get any of the group you named - I'd get a used car, and I don't think there's a single logical reason why one wouldn't. Right?

I can think of a couple. Some people simply do not trust purveyors of used cars. I usually don't. It's nice to buy a new car and be accountable for its service from day one. Others want something small and fuel efficient simply for the money savings. People who live in the city just wanting something to and from work can appreciate a small, economical car.

As a cab. Either the Crown Vic goes to the fleet market and they stop selling it to the public, or they start unloading Five Hundreds with police packages. There's no real reason why a police car or taxi needs rear-wheel drive. I mean, I realise maintainence on the Crown Vic is easy, but it simply can't stay around forever. The Five Hundred seems like the perfect alternative.

Seems too expensive to me. I was quoted CDN$40,000 for a Five Hundred. (Coincidentally, the Pontiac-Buick-GMC dealer across the street had a Buick Allure CXS in the showroom for exactly the same price, and it seemed like a far "nicer" car.)

And most police forces actually train their officers in rear-drive cars, therefore would rather buy rear-drive sedans. Some of the Crown Vics other great virtues are fairly high ground clearance for a sedan (cops jump lots of curbs and other obstacles of similar size), very wide interior, bench seats (buckets tend to be uncomfortable when you're wearing a belt with a gun, pepper spray, and clips of ammo on it), and an enormous trunk (cops hav a surpringly large amount of crap in their cruisers' trunks).

Although the Five Hundred claims to have the largest interior in its class (which is what was plastered on the side of the Five Hundred in the showroom of the dealership I visited) it doesn't feel all that large. The centre console really cuts down on room. The Five Hundred does have a big trunk, but it's really the only thing going for it.

 

[1X83Z]

My perspective on "options" is somewhat... different... than most. I'd rather get a vehicle that has manual door locks, manual windows, manual seats, no A/C, no ABS and no airbags than one with all that junk. Maybe I'm a stodgy curmudgeon, but I haven't needed whizbang gizmos before, therefore I don't feel the need for them now.

Indeed - different. So that may not apply to you, but you must admit it applies to 95% of the buying population, who wants the most they can get for their money.

I can think of a couple. Some people simply do not trust purveyors of used cars. I usually don't. It's nice to buy a new car and be accountable for its service from day one. Others want something small and fuel efficient simply for the money savings. People who live in the city just wanting something to and from work can appreciate a small, economical car.

But the difference between a "Swift+" and a used Audi A4 are nothing in price, and unbelievable gains in every other area on the part of the A4, with the exception of maintenance. Yeah, it's "nice" to get a new car, but you can do so much better used, personal maintenance aside. It's crazy.

Seems too expensive to me. I was quoted CDN$40,000 for a Five Hundred. (Coincidentally, the Pontiac-Buick-GMC dealer across the street had a Buick Allure CXS in the showroom for exactly the same price, and it seemed like a far "nicer" car.)

That's $33500 US - meaning you looked at a Five Hundred Limited (which starts at $26100 USD; $31100 CAD). The Five Hundred SE, the base model, is just $22100 USD ($26400 CAD) and has standard ABS, traction, CVT, keyless entry, power seat, and 17" alloys. Take off some of that and a fleet deal could be had for under $20000 USD ($23900 CAD).

The Buick Allure CXS - badged here as the Buick Lacrosse CXS - is the better deal, slightly, than the Five Hundred Limited, though I'd rather have an "intelligently-optioned" Five Hundred SEL than a Lacrosse CXS, even with the Lacrosse's 37-horsepower advantage.

Which shows that Ford can't justify the $2000 price difference for the Limited over the SEL, and that the Lacrosse is too expensive for what it offers. I guess. I'd still rather have an Altima SE.

And most police forces actually train their officers in rear-drive cars, therefore would rather buy rear-drive sedans. Some of the Crown Vics other great virtues are fairly high ground clearance for a sedan (cops jump lots of curbs and other obstacles of similar size), very wide interior, bench seats (buckets tend to be uncomfortable when you're wearing a belt with a gun, pepper spray, and clips of ammo on it), and an enormous trunk (cops hav a surpringly large amount of crap in their cruisers' trunks).

I wouldn't be too surprised if Ford sticks a bench seat in the fleet package for the Five Hundred. The Five Hundred has a larger trunk than the Crown Victoria and considerably more rear leg room. Actually, the Crown Victoria's always had awful rear leg room because of the design of the trunk, which impedes. So the Five Hundred's rear leg room, which unbelievably matches the front leg room in size, is only class-average (for the large class; it's huge for the midsize class) while the Crown Victoria is the class low (actually, the Pontiac Bonneville is the class low, but it's only 0.4" less, but it's nine inches shorter in length).

 

[Firebird]

Indeed - different. So that may not apply to you, but you must admit it applies to 95% of the buying population, who wants the most they can get for their money.

Oh, probably. Then again, I think over 95% of the population is dumb regardless...

But the difference between a "Swift+" and a used Audi A4 are nothing in price, and unbelievable gains in every other area on the part of the A4, with the exception of maintenance. Yeah, it's "nice" to get a new car, but you can do so much better used, personal maintenance aside. It's crazy.

It's not just buying price that factors in. Insurance would stop me from buying an Audi A4.

That's $33500 US - meaning you looked at a Five Hundred Limited (which starts at $26100 USD; $31100 CAD).

Now that I think about it, yeah, it probably was a Limited. (It starts at $36,000 up here by the way)

The Five Hundred SE, the base model, is just $22100 USD ($26400 CAD) and has standard ABS, traction, CVT, keyless entry, power seat, and 17" alloys. Take off some of that and a fleet deal could be had for under $20000 USD ($23900 CAD).

The CVT is actually a no-cost option on front-drive models. The 6-speed automatic is standard.

And the SE starts at $29,295 up here.

The Buick Allure CXS - badged here as the Buick Lacrosse CXS - is the better deal, slightly, than the Five Hundred Limited, though I'd rather have an "intelligently-optioned" Five Hundred SEL than a Lacrosse CXS, even with the Lacrosse's 37-horsepower advantage.

Which shows that Ford can't justify the $2000 price difference for the Limited over the SEL, and that the Lacrosse is too expensive for what it offers. I guess. I'd still rather have an Altima SE.

The Allure I checked out was leaps and bounds better. I liked the interior of the Allure more than that of the Cadillac STS even. The 37hp advantage is icing on the cake for me, regardless of that the Allure felt like a far "nicer" car.

The Altima 3.5 SE is $29,000 up here. 👎 The only thing it has going for it is the engine. It's no wonder I can count the number of Altima 3.5 SEs I've ever seen using a hand's worth of fingers...

I wouldn't be too surprised if Ford sticks a bench seat in the fleet package for the Five Hundred. The Five Hundred has a larger trunk than the Crown Victoria and considerably more rear leg room. Actually, the Crown Victoria's always had awful rear leg room because of the design of the trunk, which impedes. So the Five Hundred's rear leg room, which unbelievably matches the front leg room in size, is only class-average (for the large class; it's huge for the midsize class) while the Crown Victoria is the class low (actually, the Pontiac Bonneville is the class low, but it's only 0.4" less, but it's nine inches shorter in length).

Even then I don't think coppers would warm up to it. I could easily see it being a taxi though.

And I forgot to touch on this comment:

Either the Crown Vic goes to the fleet market and they stop selling it to the public, ...

They already have up here! We haven't been able to buy a civvy Crown Vic in years. They make them in St. Thomas, Ontario, yet they're all shipped to the States.

Strangely, we still have the Mercury Grand Marquis, marketed as "Ford Grand Marquis" (Ford Canada ditched the Mercury brand a few years ago), but the car still has Mercury badging.

 

[1X83Z]

Oh, probably. Then again, I think over 95% of the population is dumb regardless...

Agreed. Especially the Canadian population.

It's not just buying price that factors in. Insurance would stop me from buying an Audi A4.

Well, the A4 is just a (brilliant) example. Any number of used cars would satisfy the same conditions. Like a well-specced '00 Maxima vs. a mid-range Chevrolet Cobalt.

The CVT is actually a no-cost option on front-drive models. The 6-speed automatic is standard.

Not here. We don't get to choose. It goes like this:

SE 2WD: CVT
SE AWD: CVT
SEL 2WD: 6-A
SEL AWD: CVT
Limited 2WD: 6-A
Limited AWD: CVT

Do you have any transmission options on the Ford Freestyle in Canada? The CVT is awful.

The Altima 3.5 SE is $29,000 up here. 👎 The only thing it has going for it is the engine. It's no wonder I can count the number of Altima 3.5 SEs I've ever seen using a hand's worth of fingers...

$29000 US? Because $29000 Canadian is only $24300; they're only $23100 here.

They already have up here! We haven't been able to buy a civvy Crown Vic in years. They make them in St. Thomas, Ontario, yet they're all shipped to the States.

Strangely, we still have the Mercury Grand Marquis, marketed as "Ford Grand Marquis" (Ford Canada ditched the Mercury brand a few years ago), but the car still has Mercury badging.

I honestly laughed out loud when I read this. If this is not the single biggest example of half-assed Ford product development and investment, I don't know what is. I don't mind so much that it's called the Ford Grand Marquis, but that it still has Mercury badging is just classic.

 

[Firebird]

Agreed. Especially the Canadian population.

Us? Dumb?

We didn't vote Dubya back into office...

Not here. We don't get to choose. It goes like this:

SE 2WD: CVT
SE AWD: CVT
SEL 2WD: 6-A
SEL AWD: CVT
Limited 2WD: 6-A
Limited AWD: CVT

[Nelson Muntz voice]Ha-ha![/NelsonMuntz voice]

CVT is standard on our AWD's though.

Do you have any transmission options on the Ford Freestyle in Canada? The CVT is awful.

Nope, CVT exclusively for the Freestyle.

$29000 US? Because $29000 Canadian is only $24300; they're only $23100 here.

Yeah. And? $29,000, plus between $500 and $1000 for destination, plus $3000 in taxes, (plus $1500 for an automatic; not really a big deal to me, but since most of these are bought by middle-aged people with kids or empty-nesters, they'll want the automatic), and you then have a $32,000-$33,000 car with a nice, thirsty engine and ****ty passenger accomodations.

I honestly laughed out loud when I read this. If this is not the single biggest example of half-assed Ford product development and investment, I don't know what is. I don't mind so much that it's called the Ford Grand Marquis, but that it still has Mercury badging is just classic.

You'd think they'd sell us Crown Vics and ditch the Grand Marquis altogether, eh?

 

[1X83Z]

We didn't vote Dubya back into office...

Ouch. Fair point. Of course, we never voted him in in the first place.

Yeah. And? $29,000, plus between $500 and $1000 for destination, plus $3000 in taxes, (plus $1500 for an automatic; not really a big deal to me, but since most of these are bought by middle-aged people with kids or empty-nesters, they'll want the automatic), and you then have a $32,000-$33,000 car with a nice, thirsty engine and ****ty passenger accomodations.

What would you get instead? Altima SE, Malibu LT, Accord EX V6, and Camry SE seem like the deals of the segment, to me (not in that order, though).

And what Communist country is levying $3000 in taxes? Crap, that's $2500 US. If you add all my taxes from New York and Michigan, plus the federal gas guzzler tax ($1300 for the CLK55), I'm still under that.

You'd think they'd sell us Crown Vics and ditch the Grand Marquis altogether, eh?

They probably did the research and found more loyalty and recognition with the Grand Marquis name. Of course, who buys them anyway?

 

[Firebird]

What would you get instead? Altima SE, Malibu LT, Accord EX V6, and Camry SE seem like the deals of the segment, to me (not in that order, though).

Pretty much anything. Probably a G6. I could probably get a few grand in "incentives", and bring that sucka down to around $23,000 for a G6 GT.

And what Communist country is levying $3000 in taxes? Crap, that's $2500 US. If you add all my taxes from New York and Michigan, plus the federal gas guzzler tax ($1300 for the CLK55), I'm still under that.

7% Goods and Services Tax and 8% Provincial Sales Tax (I live in the only province that doesn't have PST 👍, so I just picked a middle ground).

They probably did the research and found more loyalty and recognition with the Grand Marquis name. Of course, who buys them anyway?

I suppose. The last major focus group Ford had assembled to come up with car names came up with "Focus" (fancy that, a focus group came up with Focus... ), and "Ka"...

 

[1X83Z]

Pretty much anything. Probably a G6. I could probably get a few grand in "incentives", and bring that sucka down to around $23,000 for a G6 GT.

The G6 GT is no better than average. There's no reason one would buy it unless they felt pressured to buy a domestic car; incentives aside it's an awful value - mediocre engine performance, mediocre spec, mediocre prices. Options are cheap, though, and fuel economy is good. But there's better cars.

 

[Firebird]

Such as...?

 

[1X83Z]

Nissan Altima SE, Honda Accord LX V6, Toyota Camry SE V6, Chevrolet Malibu LT.

They all cost within $800 of the G6, they're all far better.

 

[ShobThaBob]

Nissan Altima SE, Honda Accord LX V6, Toyota Camry SE V6, Chevrolet Malibu LT.

They all cost within $800 of the G6, they're all far better.

Out of those, I would probably want the Accord followed by the Altima.

 

[1X83Z]

The LX Accord sucks, you probably would rather the Malibu or the Altima. Without options, all three of the Japanese cars aren't very good.

 

[Firebird]

The Altima is shoddily built, the Camry has the driving dynamics of a Buick Regal GS (except slower), the Accord is a Honda and by virtue of being a Honda would never warrant purchasing (I'll save you the spiel: I won't buy a Honda), and the Malibu is a G6 with a shorter wheelbase a worse interior.

It can be as average/mediocre as you want to believe it is, but I won't buy one of the aforementioned instead of a G6. You should really go and check one out; I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

 

[skip0110]

The Altima is shoddily built,...

So you can say the Altima is shoddily built and the G6/Malibu are not?

...the Camry has the driving dynamics of a Buick Regal GS (except slower), the Accord is a Honda and by virtue of being a Honda would never warrant purchasing (I'll save you the spiel: I won't buy a Honda), and the Malibu is a G6 with a shorter wheelbase a worse interior.

The Regal and Century are dead (at least in the US) and replaced with the LaCrosse, which is a G6 clone for people over 40. I drove a Buick Century, however, and was pleasantly susrprised with the comfort and power.

However, the G6 has to be leaps and bounds better than any Pontiac I have been in to date (Grand Ams and Grand Prixes) to be better than the Honda. The had flat seats, rattly interiors, thrashy engines, and weak handling. Dont discount the Accord because it's Japanese. I do think it needs wider section tires, though.

 

[1X83Z]

I've driven both trims of the G6 and I prefer all of the vehicles I mentioned.

The Altima isn't shoddily built. The interior has a cheap look, but that's the only way you offer more stuff than rivals at lower cost. The Camry may have the driving dynamics of a Buick Regal GS, but the Camry SE V6 is a wholly different story. The Honda Accord is class-leading, simple as that. Malibu might be a dressed-down G6, but it's notably better-priced for it.

 

[JohnBM01]

Uh, have we forgotten that this is about COMMERCIAL VEHICLES?

Something I remember seeing during the Tokyo International Motor Show for Commercial Vehicles was a Volvo exhibit that expresses the importance of keeping your seat belt on. Co-Host of "World's Greatest Auto Shows" Tony Noakes was in a Volvo truck as it was tilted a wicked 65 degrees on the side. Had Tony not had his seat belts on, he would have fallen out of the truck like Mario going through a pipe.

I don't know which one if it was, but at the show, one truck or something had a nice floor to it when you get in to drive it.

Any more commercial vehicle talk?

 

[1X83Z]

Uh, have we forgotten that this is about COMMERCIAL VEHICLES?

You should be happy that we've given your thread a little life, since no-one was talking about COMMERCIAL VEHICLES.

 

[Firebird]

So you can say the Altima is shoddily built and the G6/Malibu are not?

Yup. Pretty much every single piece of the interior was flimsy and poorly fastened.

I heard it got a slight redesign for '05, which I haven't sampled.

The Regal and Century are dead (at least in the US) and replaced with the LaCrosse, which is a G6 clone for people over 40. I drove a Buick Century, however, and was pleasantly susrprised with the comfort and power.

LaCrosse is actually a Grand Prix clone. And it's for anyone who wants to buy one. Buicks may not be "cool", but they're usually a good value (except Park Avenue and Rainier). I have no qualms with owning a Buick.

However, the G6 has to be leaps and bounds better than any Pontiac I have been in to date (Grand Ams and Grand Prixes) to be better than the Honda. The had flat seats, rattly interiors, thrashy engines, and weak handling.

Trust me, it is leaps and bounds better. (although I'm hard pressed to call the 3800 and 3400 V6s "thrashy"...)

Dont discount the Accord because it's Japanese. I do think it needs wider section tires, though.

It's not that it's Japanese. I don't have a problem with owning a Japanese car. It's Honda.

 

[Firebird]

Uh, have we forgotten that this is about COMMERCIAL VEHICLES?

Uh, have you forgotten that the scope of what constitutes a COMMERCIAL VEHICLE is not limited to heavy-duty trucks?

We were talking about taxis and police cars.

 

[1X83Z]

LaCrosse is actually a Grand Prix clone. And it's for anyone who wants to buy one. Buicks may not be "cool", but they're usually a good value (except Park Avenue and Rainier). I have no qualms with owning a Buick.

Consider this:

Altima SE with leather package and braking & airbag package is $26900. LaCrosse CXS with no options is $28300. Altima has steering wheel audio controls, heated seats and mirrors, a 6-disc CD changer, a power sunroof, an automatic day/night mirror, a universal garage-door opener, and front side and side curtain airbags. LaCrosse has none of that. In order to get a LaCrosse up to that spec, I'd have to add the Gold Convenience Package ($1150) for the universal garage-door opener, heated mirrors, and steering wheel audio controls, curtain side airbags ($395), a power sunroof ($900), and a 6-disc CD changer ($695). And we're still out front side airbags, not offered by the Buick. Yet the LaCrosse is now $31400 to the Altima's $26900. And of course, the Altima has more power, and more front head and leg room. Would you really pay $4500 for ... a "nicer" interior? How is that a better value?

I could do the same comparison with Accord, Camry, and Galant and come out with the same result.

And Rainier V8 is the best value of any Buick on the market, by far.

It's not that it's Japanese. I don't have a problem with owning a Japanese car. It's Honda.

What's the problem with Honda? The Accord is a great car, as are the Pilot and Odyssey.

 

[Firebird]

Consider this:

Altima SE with leather package and braking & airbag package is $26900. LaCrosse CXS with no options is $28300. Altima has steering wheel audio controls, heated seats and mirrors, a 6-disc CD changer, a power sunroof, an automatic day/night mirror, a universal garage-door opener, and front side and side curtain airbags. LaCrosse has none of that. In order to get a LaCrosse up to that spec, I'd have to add the Gold Convenience Package ($1150) for the universal garage-door opener, heated mirrors, and steering wheel audio controls, curtain side airbags ($395), a power sunroof ($900), and a 6-disc CD changer ($695). And we're still out front side airbags, not offered by the Buick. Yet the LaCrosse is now $31400 to the Altima's $26900. And of course, the Altima has more power, and more front head and leg room. Would you really pay $4500 for ... a "nicer" interior? How is that a better value?

I could do the same comparison with Accord, Camry, and Galant and come out with the same result.

Consider this:

Lexus ES330 with no options is $32,625.

And Rainier V8 is the best value of any Buick on the market, by far.

How so? You could get an Envoy for less, and it's exactly the same thing.

What's the problem with Honda? The Accord is a great car, as are the Pilot and Odyssey.

There's nothing wrong with the cars, it's the neo-fascist company I don't like.

 

[1X83Z]

Consider this:

Lexus ES330 with no options is $32,625.

Yes, and it's a truly awful car. Mainly because the Altima, Camry, Accord, Galant, and Malibu offer all the same stuff for $7000 less. What's your point?

How so? You could get an Envoy for less, and it's exactly the same thing.

Can't get a standard-length Envoy with the V8, though. That's the difference. And let's just be honest here, the Envoy XL is likely the ugliest vehicle ever produced (plus, the XL model doesn't have the same ass-kicking acceleration as the V8 Rainier). If you want a five-passenger budget-priced luxury SUV with decent acceleration, Rainier is great. If you don't care about acceleration, Envoy's the one.

There's nothing wrong with the cars, it's the neo-fascist company I don't like.

Yeah, I do hate the neo-fascists. I wouldn't classify Honda as a neo-fascist company, but to each his own.

 

[Firebird]

Yeah, I do hate the neo-fascists. I wouldn't classify Honda as a neo-fascist company, but to each his own.

You've been brainwashed by "The Man", that's why!

Any minute now I expect the head honchos in Tokyo to break out Borg-style:

"WE ARE HONDA. LOWER YOUR TARRIFFS AND SURRENDER YOUR INDUSTRIES. WE WILL ADD YOUR BIOLOGICAL AND TECHNOLOGICAL DISTINCTIVENESS TO OUR OWN. YOUR CULTURE WILL ADAPT TO SERVICE US. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE."

Honda has spawned their own little cult of devout followers, which really pisses me off more than anything. They've conned millions of people into believing they're just a little upstart company trying to compete with bigger fish in the sea (which is a flat out LIE; they're the world's top producer of internal combustion engines), that cares about the environment, etc. What they're really doing is conning people into believing all of their propaganda in order to squash the competition. So now you have these Hondaphiles driving around, preaching the way of Soichiro Honda, trying to convert you to the faith, with the eventual goal of having everyone on Earth driving their own Accord or Civic, mowing their lawns with Honda mowers, having fun on the weekends on their Honda ATVs and fishing with their Honda-powered boats...