Communism and Socialism

  • Thread starter Duke
  • 256 comments
  • 9,865 views

Do you think Collectivism is a good thing?

  • Yes! We are all our brother's keepers and human need is paramount.

    Votes: 21 25.9%

  • Maybe! After all, rich people have money and poor people don't.

    Votes: 15 18.5%

  • Maybe not! But I still feel guilty about seeing poor people.

    Votes: 14 17.3%

  • No! I earn what I have and don't want what I haven't earned.

    Votes: 31 38.3%
  • Total voters
    81
I suspect the influx of members posting in O&CE from other democratic socialist republics (and even monarchies, lol) just may have shifted the consensus slightly.

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As an American, I think some things are already sort of socialist without being bad things, like various infrastructure, or Medicare. I think a lot of people who get spooked over socialism either don't know what it is, or get freaked out at nations that aren't doing well for reasons other than socialism, like how I hear Venezuela over-centralized its economy on oil. It also doesn't help the image of socialism (and to some extent, communism as well) that the CIA has usually been mucking about, like when they overthrew the Iranian government in '53. That said, I do identify as a capitalist - but I think capitalism needs to evolve if it wants to be favored by future generations of Americans.
 
MIE1992
As an American, I think some things are already sort of socialist without being bad things, like various infrastructure, or Medicare. I think a lot of people who get spooked over socialism either don't know what it is, or get freaked out at nations that aren't doing well for reasons other than socialism, like how I hear Venezuela over-centralized its economy on oil. It also doesn't help the image of socialism (and to some extent, communism as well) that the CIA has usually been mucking about, like when they overthrew the Iranian government in '53. That said, I do identify as a capitalist - but I think capitalism needs to evolve if it wants to be favored by future generations of Americans.
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You sound like a reasonable guy but I have a feeling that capitalism has no one guiding force that would make it evolve in the way you're talking about. As I understand it it's just buying and selling, supply and demand. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, though.
 
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UKMikey
You sound like a reasonable guy but I have a feeling that capitalism has no one guiding force that would make it evolve in the way you're talking about. As I understand it it's just buying and selling, supply and demand. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, though.
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That's about right.
 
In my humble opinion, we are badly going to need communism, socialism or some other form of authoritarian government under numerous very possible scenarios that are on the horizon.
 
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UKMikey
You sound like a reasonable guy but I have a feeling that capitalism has no one guiding force that would make it evolve in the way you're talking about. As I understand it it's just buying and selling, supply and demand. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, though.
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That does make it quite flexible though. Nothing stops you from buying and selling for the good of other people. Capitalism itself might not be driven to evolve but the society around it can be. I think in the US at least there is a lot of room for improvement when it comes to allowing us to help one another.
 
Exorcet
Nothing stops you from buying and selling for the good of other people.
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You can try and make sure your buying and selling doesn't cause harm to other people but I think people buy and sell primarily becuase of the benefit it brings to themselves. Using their wealth to help other people is charity, not capitalism. As far as I know capitalism and socialism aren't mutually exclusive.
 
UKMikey
You can try and make sure your buying and selling doesn't cause harm to other people but I think people buy and sell primarily becuase of the benefit it brings to themselves.
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I'm sure that's true in a lot of cases, but there is a lot that you can do with wealth. It's certainly not limited to helping yourself. All you need is some motivation to be altruistic, which isn't hard to come by.
UKMikey
Using their wealth to help other people is charity, not capitalism. As far as I know capitalism and socialism aren't mutually exclusive.
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Charity is not capitalism, but it can drive capitalism. I definitely plan to use my money for the good of other people, and it's nothing new to me at this point. It goes hand in hand with improving things for myself.

Elements of socialism and capitalism aren't mutually exclusive and recently I've been trying to push that idea, but not everything mixes. I'd like to avoid as much as possible taking and dividing people's property and resources by law or force.
 
Exorcet
I'm sure that's true in a lot of cases, but there is a lot that you can do with wealth. It's certainly not limited to helping yourself. All you need is some motivation to be altruistic, which isn't hard to come by.
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I didn't say wealth was limited to helping yourself. I said most people buy and sell to help themselves before they think of helping others. Charity begins at home.
 
UKMikey
I didn't say wealth was limited to helping yourself. I said most people buy and sell to help themselves before they think of helping others. Charity begins at home.
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Sorry I didn't mean to make it sound like I wasn't acknowledging that.

"I'm sure that's true in a lot of cases"

At the same time I think there is a fair bit of charity in people and I don't see capitalism as something that suppresses that. There are other factors involved in determining how much people are willing to share.
 
@Shidapu

Here is a thread where you can enlighten us about Komrad Stalin.
So, why is he not a mass murdering dictator in your eyes?
 
Shidapu
Well maybe is it because I don't have mud in them.

Here's something easy for you to get started..

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Yeah, no.

You tell me what I asked for, I'm not going to watch a 40 minute video from some obscure special Youtuber.
 
Shidapu
Here's something easy for you to get started..
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The request was that you explain it, not that you defer that to a 40 minute video.

You need to be able to explain it and articulate why, it's unreasonable to expect the other party to watch a 40 minute video with zero explanation or justification.

And stop double posting.
 
Dennisch
Yeah, no.

You tell me what I asked for, I'm not going to watch a 40 minute video from some obscure special Youtuber.
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If it's no easy for you to watch a video that is very enjoyable to watch then we have nothing to say... let's say I made the video for people like you.
 
Scaff
The request was that you explain it, not that you defer that to a 40 minute video.

You need to be able to explain it and articulate why, it's unreasonable to expect the other party to watch a 40 minute video with zero explanation or justification.

And stop double posting.
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He will find the answer he wants...I think the title of the video is self explanatory.

Sorry about double post it's the phone.
 
Shidapu
I think the title of the video is self explanatory.
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Murderous dictatorships aren't communism. If the video title describes its contents accurately, it doesn't address the question asked of you.

Communism is a [bad] economic model. Lots of things that aren't communism are frequently ascribed to communism. Murderous dictatorships may or may not also employ communist economic policies, but the two things are separate.
 
Well, this is already going about as well as I expected.
Shidapu
He will find the answer he wants...I think the title of the video is self explanatory.
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Except that @Dennisch didn't ask you about "every Anti-Communist argument ever," he asked you to explain, in your own words, how Stalin wasn't a dictator who orchestrated the murder of hundreds-of-thousands of his own citizens. I myself would also be curious about that.

Regardless, dropping a 40-minute long video with nothing to really go off of and using that as your "answer" is lazy.
 
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TexRex
Murderous dictatorships aren't communism. If the video title describes its contents accurately, it doesn't address the question asked of you.

Communism is a [bad] economic model. Lots of things that aren't communism are frequently ascribed to communism. Murderous dictatorships may or may not also employ communist economic policies, but the two things are separate.
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NotThePrez
Well, this is already going about as well as I expected.

Except that @Dennisch didn't ask you about "every Anti-Communist argument ever," he asked you to explain, in your own words, how Stalin wasn't a dictator who orchestrated the murder of hundreds-of-thousands of his own citizens. I myself would also be curious about that.

Regardless, dropping a 40-minute long video with nothing to really go off of and using that as your "answer" is lazy.
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You both can also watch the video...grab a beer and enjoy.
 
@Shidapu

With regards to Stalin being a murderous dictator, I'm not sure how you can dismiss the Holodomor genocide as "western propaganda" against communism. Even if it wasn't orchestrated by Stalin specifically, collectivism, a core tenant of communism, certainly amplified the famine. The same thing happened with the Kazakh famine in 1930 through 1933 and the Soviet famine during the same period.

Besides the famines, which were likely man-made, you really can't dispute Stalin's involvement in the Great Purge and the operations carried out by the NKVD where over a million people were killed.

Claiming Stalin wasn't a murderous dictator is ignoring a large part of history and is up there with the people who deny the Holocaust happened. Stalin's reign isn't necessarily indicative of communism either, you can be a murderous dictator and not be communist and vice versa. It just so happens that communist countries often end up extremely authoritarian.

And before you direct me to that video, I'm not even going to click on something that has a title image with a bunch of poorly drawn, cringy memes.
 
Blitz24
Why don't you summarize it as opposed to making everyone take ~2 hours from their life to watch it.
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Did you see me holding a gun to someone's head or something..?
If you don't want to watch it then don't.
 

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