CSR Elite getting weaker?

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BODHI85

BODHI85

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bodhisattva_85
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BODHI85
So I can't shake this nagging feeling that the force feedback on my CSR Elite wheel is much weaker since first buying it over a year ago. I haven't done any firmware updates on it ever. My ffb settings is at 100% and pretty much default for all others. Yet, it feels different now. I remember how hard it use to pull before when playing. Sometimes It felt like my arms were about to twist off. Now, no matter how erratic I drive, the wheel just doesn't feel very strong.

Is there something I can do to test my wheel and confirm whether my concerns are real? And is there something I can do about it?
 
Maybe you got used to it?

Or maybe the belts loosened a little bit? (Doesnt it allow for tightening the belts without needing to open it up?)
 
I think it's time to do a firmware update and it should give you an idea if it's hardware related or firmware related.
 
Remember that at least some of the firmwares I've datalogged back off FFB strength as motor temperatures rise. At the same time this occurs, fan speed rises when you have it set to automagic.

So pay attention to what you feel when the Elite is first turned on and used compared to well into a hard session.

You can also measure the force available at any time using a fish scale if you (like me) prefer objective and subjective tests rather than just the latter.
 
RacerXX can you list which firmwares do or do not back off with temp rise? And if they differ, by how much?
 
eKretz
RacerXX can you list which firmwares do or do not back off with temp rise? And if they differ, by how much?
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Sorry if this is more technical than some would prefer.

My CSRs and Elite use the latest firmwares & drivers, but I have pretty much all of the files to use if desired.

On DC motors such as these the Torque and the Heat to dissipate go hand in hand with the delivered Current (amps). Since I use gages I can know for sure that 100% of the current is going to the motor(s) at any given time. If the belts are not slipping much then the at-the-wheel torque would be just as expected for that motor temperature. The ammeter is pretty much a live motor torque dyno in this respect. Bear in mind that these motors lose some torque as temperatures rise. This is because the coils of copper wire wound around the armature gain electrical resistance with temperature. So then less current will flow hence less torque can be produced. Magnets also weaken with temperature and can fail to fully recover once cooled if they are abused heavily.
 
Remember that at least some of the firmwares I've datalogged back off FFB strength as motor temperatures rise.
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Yes, all of that is understood. I was referring to this specific statement, where it sounds like you are saying some of the firmwares do and some don't reduce current. Or that some reduce it more than others.
 
eKretz
Yes, all of that is understood. I was referring to this specific statement, where it sounds like you are saying some of the firmwares do and some don't reduce current. Or that some reduce it more than others.
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Any firmware that cuts current will cut felt wheel torque.

You can short the motor's temp sensor (makes the circuit board think you landed on the sun) and find zero FFB action and redlined fan speed. Or unplug it (like moving to Antarctica) and find that the full force will be with you all the time until something breaks. Normally on the firmwares with thermostatically controlled fan actions, the motor's temperature sensor is the main input. And as the resistance drops (an NTC resistor is utilized) the fan speed is increased.

My thoughts on water / peltier cooling are to run with the stock motor sensor unplugged and just use separate, independent cooling controls so that there is no mystery about what the heck the firmware is doing. Plus the cooling can then be set to continue after the wheel is turned off. With peltier you can even prechill your gerbils before some hard racing to get them shivering below ambient.

If you run your wheel very hard don't go "OMG it's gonna blow" and then immediately turn the wheel off and go have a beer. Instead keep the rig powered up (but don't drive) so that the fan can help you beat the heat. And then have that beer haha.

I am not a warranty enthusiast and just deal with stuff I break myself since that was my own dang fault 99% of the time.
 
Same here, that's why I really wanted some tough motors and went with the Buhlers. I only tend to use the warranty on stuff in cases where it's clearly defective from the start; like these "Fana-Mabuchis." IMO, they should be able to take more than they do. (The "bad batch" ones I mean). The approach with the cooling you describe sounds like something I can use. I was unaware that I could just unplug the temp sensor; figured it would cause an error.

Are you using the Peltier with a heat exchanger?
 
Firmwars all the way back to at least 681 on the PWTS series of wheels are controlled in this manner. It would be unlikely that they were not all like this as it looks to be part of the design.
 
eKretz
Same here, that's why I really wanted some tough motors and went with the Buhlers. I only tend to use the warranty on stuff in cases where it's clearly defective from the start; like these "Fana-Mabuchis." IMO, they should be able to take more than they do. (The "bad batch" ones I mean). The approach with the cooling you describe sounds like something I can use. I was unaware that I could just unplug the temp sensor; figured it would cause an error.

Are you using the Peltier with a heat exchanger?
Click to expand...

Yeah those B motors should turn out to be grade A, haha. There are also some other nice motor options out there that you can buy stock. Or you can also do some manual rewinding for stall torque performance at a particular current/voltage level. The Mabuchi 775s don't generally come with the type of windings you'd want for sim purposes for instance, and so rewinding is part of such an effort. One of those could work, and two can fit just fine.

I'm trying out a number of things heat wise, just having some hobby fun. Peltiers are dirt cheap these days, and I have used them a few different ways here. Having done some ice cooling of my CSR motor late last year and noticing the motor really liked this (no FFB fade and more output) I have been thinking about below ambient cooling for some time. Straight water to ambient air cooling won't do that. One thought I had is that since I am using a non-stock power supply, that I could use my now unemployed stock 24V/5A for something and peltiers do draw some amps. That's a decent amount of juice for a peltier project.

I also just added more heat sinking to part of the Elite circuit board that is being worked harder with my mods and that was no particular concern in stock condition. See when you make some performance mods, you always uncover more weak spots to address as you go along. You know, just like with real cars.
 
Yeah, I hope they turn out grade A; they ought to, for what they cost! I am going to do a fish scale test and the iracing wheelcheck.exe log both before and after I change the motor setup to see what results/improvements I get.


Re:the weak spots; sort of like the 97 camaro ss I ripped apart at 17k miles to mod to 550HP that ate its crappy 10-bolt rear end.
 
eKretz
Yeah, I hope they turn out grade A; they ought to, for what they cost! I am going to do a fish scale test and the iracing wheelcheck.exe log both before and after I change the motor setup to see what results/improvements I get.


Re:the weak spots; sort of like the 97 camaro ss I ripped apart at 17k miles to mod to 550HP that ate its crappy 10-bolt rear end.
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Yeah my fish scale showed around 12 pounds on the stock Elite rim's inside diameter. I used a rubber hose over the hook and placed that over a wheel spoke. With four Fana-Buchis and 24V / 5 Amps (non-stock PSU though) I get around 15 and with less heat per motor than stock as the heat is more spread out. With over 10 amps and more voltage, around 25-30 pounds but I have belt woes & fixes I'm addressing. I want to get my belts happy and then more thoroughly try some additional motors lurking in my Pile-O'stuff.

One of the flattened copper water cooling coils:
AnotherCooler_zpsb70efaa5.png


Some bits I grabbed. See the long copper tube running diagonally? That is 3 feet long and is how much each motor takes.
somebits_zpsb55a1045.png
 
Looks good. I am making a jig to roll the tubing square for more surface area in contact and in perfectly round loops so it'll make better contact with the can.
 
eKretz
Looks good. I am making a jig to roll the tubing square for more surface area in contact and in perfectly round loops so it'll make better contact with the can.
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I'd make the jig a bit smaller in diameter than the motor's flux ring (Fana-Buchis have them not sure about your "Killer Bees") and case so that there is a spring force against the motors in those areas when installed. Arctic Silver under the ring too as it does not perfectly fit the case. Don't discard that flux ring as it helps with torque by keeping more of the magnetic force directed inwards. If you'd like smaller coils just do the flux ring area (leaving the brush end of the motor alone) since the magnets and coils live underneath of the ring.

I used ¼ inch OD tubing with about a 5 mm ID, fed at the pulley end of the motor. You can go a bit smaller if you'd like, but I went with what was readily available in stock, cheap & local. Gage tubing at ⅛ OD had too small an ID for decent water flow.

You could also seal the case holes and do a cylinder sleeve with o-rings at each end like the RC guys sometimes do. Those are EZ but can suffer from stagnant zones. And they don't look as "mad scientist" as shiny copper coils for your daily dose of tech bling.

Perusing the specs of industrial torque motors built to live at stall (zero RPM) all day long…well they generally provide two continuous torque figures. With and without water cooling. In general water cooling doubles or triples their no-overheating/safe continuous torque specification so that might be about what we gain, not sure yet.
 
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Those peltier project are very interesting, for those of us reluctant to open our wheels, but still conscient that keeping the wheel cool is important for the performnace and reliability, hence why there is a fan in the first place, how about a very small AC unit, that could blow cold air right into the wheel, has any one done it, seen something interesting?
I admit, it would be a lot less sexy than Peltier, but to me ( and possibly other) not to have to open the wheel is priceless.( as they say in Master Card advertising)
 
Cote Dazur
Those peltier project are very interesting, for those of us reluctant to open our wheels, but still conscient that keeping the wheel cool is important for the performnace and reliability, hence why there is a fan in the first place, how about a very small AC unit, that could blow cold air right into the wheel, has any one done it, seen something interesting?
I admit, it would be a lot less sexy than Peltier, but to me ( and possibly other) not to have to open the wheel is priceless.( as they say in Master Card advertising)
Click to expand...

Sure cooler air entering the device would be beneficial. However that mostly would cool the overall average temperatures moreso than specific hotspots.

Peltier chips are dirt cheap (often under 10 dollars) and readily available these days due to their use in those tiny portable refrigerators or beer coolers.

Most dc motors are designed to be operated with the motor actually spinning. In sim use the motor is at or near what is termed "stall". A wheel like the Elite is rated at "120 Watts" for the motors. When you stall the device such as feeling heavy self-centering during a corner the motor is basically acting like a heater for the most part. And so the coils get hotter and hotter and just one zone of the commutator gets utilized.

It's a hard life these motors live. So mods such as Ekretz, myself, and others are making will allow us to have both stronger FFB action AND more peace of mind that they can be run hard without excess worry about blowing it all up. And of course you don't have to be able to literally freeze your motors to have fun simracing.
 
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Stan, the "killer bees" (cute, good one) have no need for the flux ring since the can is a lot thicker steel it acts as the flux ring. The outside of the can on the b's has practically zero residual magnetism. I was planning on rolling the tubing about 1/16" smaller than the can OD to get a good tight fit and have a tube of arctic silver waiting from my laptop's CPU change.

I decided against the "jacket" cooling from the start.
 
I notice that too. On a 30 min race i always notice in race that the FFB gets weaker. I thought that maybe the tyres have changed. Using rfactor 2. They added tyre wear lately in rfactor 2, but this also happened long before the change with newer firmware. This didn't happen with firmware 722. I don't like that at all because the FFB gets noticeably weaker, somewhere ~30-50% weaker. Fanatec sold me a different wheel for a lot of money!
 
Vittorio, in the wheel modding thread I have a post about a test I did. The wheel lost about half of its power in around 30 minutes.
 
Question:

My beta CSW is now making slight "motor straining" sounds under FFB load. It is nothing I am too worried about right NOW, and just want to know what this might be leading to....? I am NOT sure this is the beginning of the end of the motors, or just aging characteristics......? I also have to increase the FFB +-1 on the in game slider as the race goes on, as there is a slight weakening over 30 minute races. Any info would be greatly appreciated!

Again, NOTHING is permanently wrong or damaged with the base, still works tremendously! Got me a few wins :), and a few last places :grumpy: (product of the beast) @ Daytona this weekend!

FYI: I put +-10-15 total hours per week on it. It is well taken care of, AND, I have a separate fan attached to the left side to force more air into the base for increased cooling as Oval racing puts stress & heats up the motors. The base gets warm at best
 
AGP5000
Question:

My beta CSW is now making slight "motor straining" sounds under FFB load. It is nothing I am too worried about right NOW, and just want to know what this might be leading to....? I am NOT sure this is the beginning of the end of the motors, or just aging characteristics......? I also have to increase the FFB +-1 on the in game slider as the race goes on, as there is a slight weakening over 30 minute races. Any info would be greatly appreciated!

Again, NOTHING is permanently wrong or damaged with the base, still works tremendously! Got me a few wins :), and a few last places :grumpy: (product of the beast) @ Daytona this weekend!

FYI: I put +-10-15 total hours per week on it. It is well taken care of, AND, I have a separate fan attached to the left side to force more air into the base for increased cooling as Oval racing puts stress & heats up the motors. The base gets warm at best
Click to expand...

How about an audio clip?
 
AGP5000
Question:

My beta CSW is now making slight "motor straining" sounds under FFB load. It is nothing I am too worried about right NOW, and just want to know what this might be leading to....? I am NOT sure this is the beginning of the end of the motors, or just aging characteristics......? I also have to increase the FFB +-1 on the in game slider as the race goes on, as there is a slight weakening over 30 minute races. Any info would be greatly appreciated!

Again, NOTHING is permanently wrong or damaged with the base, still works tremendously! Got me a few wins :), and a few last places :grumpy: (product of the beast) @ Daytona this weekend!

FYI: I put +-10-15 total hours per week on it. It is well taken care of, AND, I have a separate fan attached to the left side to force more air into the base for increased cooling as Oval racing puts stress & heats up the motors. The base gets warm at best
Click to expand...

What game is it? what are you running the FFB at?
You mention, well taken care of, what is it you do?
 
RacerXX
How about an audio clip?
Click to expand...

I will need to get a friend by to tape as I race. But will do my best by this weekend! When it is cool, the sound is non-existent. After 10-15 laps, the noise begins



@Cote- iRacing. I follow this setting, and it works perfect for me! http://f-wheel.com/settings/iracing-csw However, with the new update, my slider is around 34-35, not 8-15

As for what I do- Weekly vacuum & compressed air cleanings. Also, just attached a PC fan to the left side to force more air in to keep motors cooler. I primarily do oval racing, and the constant strain to the left causes the base to warm up a bit. The fans do kick in, but too late for my liking. Now, it never gets even lukewarm!
 
bumer
Yeah, I would also like to hear that. My motors also make some strange noises (not very loud of course) when FFB is applied but still everything works fine.
Click to expand...

And, same here. They are not loud, just noticeable. I do not know if it is the beginning of failure, or just an aging thing...
 
AGP5000
@Cote- iRacing. I follow this setting, and it works perfect for me! http://f-wheel.com/settings/iracing-csw However, with the new update, my slider is around 34-35, not 8-15

As for what I do- Weekly vacuum & compressed air cleanings. Also, just attached a PC fan to the left side to force more air in to keep motors cooler. I primarily do oval racing, and the constant strain to the left causes the base to warm up a bit. The fans do kick in, but too late for my liking. Now, it never gets even lukewarm!
Click to expand...

Thank you, I was thinking about adding an other fan as well, or even a small AC unit, if I can find one, realising it is far from beeing as efficient than some kind of peltier spot cooling, but a lot less intrusive.
 
eKretz
Vittorio, in the wheel modding thread I have a post about a test I did. The wheel lost about half of its power in around 30 minutes.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your objective measurements!

I had 50% previously in my nonedited post because of my subjective feelings. But i corrected this to 30-50% cause my brain told me that Fanatec can't do this. I had to wait one day to post a reply because this makes me really angry!

Fanatec promotes their products by utilizing the internet a lot. Their organized beta testers reviews or reviews like
http://f-wheel.com/reviews/csr-elite-wheel-benchmarked
are selling their products.

My CSR Elite's motors died. A lot of other customers motors died, and Thomas Jackermeier (CEO of Fanatec) answered to their customers (via internet again, the channel they sell their products), that this is due to a bad batch of motors and not a problem by design:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7959883#post7959883

And in the same time they change their firmware (757. 722 didn't degrade FFB strength) that the FFB degrades to the level of the much cheaper G25/G27.

Well, as i said before, this makes me really angry (after putting >1000€ into Fanatec products)!

EDIT: I have to correct the angriness in this post after reading in the "Fanatec CSW/CSR Elite Modders" Thread that this happens with other wheels like the T500 too. I hate this effect but it is probably necessary :(
 
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Vittorio, the benchmark link is legitimate, but it only shows the results for a cold wheel. I'd love to see those tests run again on a wheel that has been heavily raced for 30-45 minutes.

I have had 2 separate FFB motor failures also. I am starting to wonder if they are retuning the wheels through firmware to try to lengthen the motor life.

Edit to add: I went ahead and did a hot vs. cold graph of my CSW with F1 rim on page 7 of the wheel modding thread if anyone's interested, using the same program as in Vittorio's link. This was with firmware 037.
 
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