Cutting turns and chicanes in Time Trials (mainly Seasonals)

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dadarjapit
2:00.246 on my very first lap :confused:. Stock (all aids off except abs 1, no touching white lines at all).
So I'd say its definitely doable.
edit - second lap 1:59.215
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If you did it cleanly (without crossing white lines and curbs) I want to congratulate you on it. I'm not accustomed to the Rottenboden layout, did only 3 laps with S2000, the best result was around 2:03, I cut the first set of turns and probably slowed down to early on downills. I use the cokpit view although I'm faster on bumper view.
 
What i hate is that there's the option to run SRF... with it off i could barely enter top 500... as soon as switch it on i enter the top 100... something;s not right here, now is it?
 
jsjakesaid
What i hate is that there's the option to run SRF... with it off i could barely enter top 500... as soon as switch it on i enter the top 100... something;s not right here, now is it?
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Yeah, I noticed that. As soon as I turned SRF on, my times were cut almost by 2 or 3 seconds. I didn't want to do that, but it seemed odd how some of my PSN friends managed to take some turns so quickly. With SRF on, I could tell why.
 
Baldgye-I like the way you think. On some courses, that's already true. Cross a white line on NBR when off-track grip is realistic and you're spinning. Hit one of those tall inside kurbs and the same thing is happening.

But, like that chicane after the downhill on Spa, there are always some spots where staying on line means cutting kurbs.

The SRF is a bigger problem. I have no problem with a "legal cut" that lets someone take a corner a little faster or carry a bit more speed. I have no problem with "crutches", like ABS/ TCS/ Driving line, they don't make you faster, just more consistent (and often, slower. TCS slows me down, that's for sure. Driving line isn't always the "racing line".)

I do have a problem with some invisible force pushing players around corners faster than the physics of the game allows for the rest of us, allowing them to get times 3-4 seconds faster while we're struggling to get another tenth. It lets you play 20-50PP above your weight class, it's the steroid of racing and should be forced off for anything serious (aka, ranked).
 
baldgye
Forget a penalty system, why don't PD just make it so outside the white lines there is a massive drop in grip, you know, like real life... If you could cut a corner but it would be quicker not too... People wouldn't cut the corner...
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I think the grip should be realistic in all cases, any artificial lack of grip outside the lines would be a bad thing IMO, better to simply black flag the lap if the car is off track so the lap doesn't count at all but don;t make the grip on Asphalt feel like it is on wet grass or worse do like Forza and put super glue areas around the track so that if you drop a tire off it knocks your speed down by about 90% the second you touch it.

I also have no problem with a legal cut, nor with ABS/TCS/ASM/Auto/Driving Line, SRF is another matter. Personally I think it should only be available to those who are using the other driving aids as well. It definitely should not be available to anyone who is not using TCS 5 or higher and ASM. This would limit the problem quite a bit as the ASM would help offset the added speed that can be attained with the SRF on
 
This thread reminds me of what I noticed during last years 2012 GT Academy (Probably happened in others too) Personally I don't care how people set times in seasonal events as the prize is universal and guaranteed for everyone that participates.
GT Academy has exclusive "prizes" for the top drivers so I feel the morality of players driving is much more important in how much we should and shouldn't push and exploit the game boundaries.

Here's an old post of mine to show the example of how some of the driving was in last years 2012 GT Academy.

Maccer_42
Alot of members of this forum seem to say "As long as you keep 2 wheels on track you are ok" I partialy agree with this but if the centre line of the car is off track I view it as a corner cut.

But it all depends on where you consider the track edge is...

I took some pictures of the number 1 ghost times at what I consider their most controversial points.

Picture from Round 1 Event 2

2mez7dj.jpg


This photo is questionable if its a cut or not, the game allows this, according to the 2 wheels on track rule most people follow here this is 'acceptable' but for me if the only part of your car on the track is about 40mm of tyre tread and 99.5% of your car is in the grass I view this as a cut.


Picture from Round 1 Event 3

DSC01065.jpg


Now this one in my opinion is a undeniable corner cut. All 4 wheels are beyond the white line (which is usualy considerd the offical track edge) But the game allows this. His rear left tyre is beyond the white line and on the bricks, his front left tyre is well beyond the white line and in the grass.

But for any of the members on here who reguarly hold racing leagues with leaderboards etc, would you allow the participating members to drive like this lap after lap?

Or for any of the members who hold regular time trial competitions if the number 1 time displayed this kind of driving for every corner when possible would you allow it and consider it a valid time?

Now I know what I feel on this doesn't matter at the end of the day, it's up to PD to decide what's allowed and what isn't, and I dont feel the drivers who do this should be disqualifyed. PD allows it so they take advantage of it, fair play to them. But I certainly do not consider this to be "clean" driving.
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edit: forgot it was 2014 now :lol:
 
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The kerbs are not part of the track. You must not go off the track with all four wheels, if you do you must yield to any cars close behind. You may not go off with all four wheels to pass, you can not use going off track to keep a position. Lap times are usually excluded if it's deemed you got an advantage from going off track.

Those are the rules. There isn't much debating them. Off the track is ALL FOUR WHEELS. The white lines are part of the track, the kerbs are not. Cutting the corner is using all four wheels. Two wheels is always legal. Debate over.

20.2 Drivers must use the track at all times. For the avoidance of doubt the white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not.A driver will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with the track.Should a car leave the track the driver may re-join, however, this may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining any lasting advantage. At the absolute discretion of the race director a driver may be given the opportunity to give back the whole of any advantage he gained by leaving the track.

http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/rules_and_regulations/sporting_regulations/8683/fia.html
 
Any error of application is on PD, by not accurately judging whether no part of the car is still touching the white lines
 
HBR-Roadhog
I think the grip should be realistic in all cases, any artificial lack of grip outside the lines would be a bad thing IMO, better to simply black flag the lap if the car is off track so the lap doesn't count at all but don;t make the grip on Asphalt feel like it is on wet grass or worse do like Forza and put super glue areas around the track so that if you drop a tire off it knocks your speed down by about 90% the second you touch it.

I also have no problem with a legal cut, nor with ABS/TCS/ASM/Auto/Driving Line, SRF is another matter. Personally I think it should only be available to those who are using the other driving aids as well. It definitely should not be available to anyone who is not using TCS 5 or higher and ASM. This would limit the problem quite a bit as the ASM would help offset the added speed that can be attained with the SRF on
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Yeah I don't mean make it unrealistic but race cars on slicks have to back out of corners if they go too deep because there is a lot less grip off line etc
 
I can't even cut corners if I tried, its as if my account has less tolerance on on such penalties, than 50% of top 100 people, that probably hack their PS3's and or game data, or the expensive hardware firewalls behind their devices that fool netcode into their unrealstic -10s laptimes that I couldn't even match if I got away with bribing the officials to back up the finish line by a 500m after the race starts.

I take any top leader times with a huge chunk of salt, and I feel good about myself if I can beat friends I know I play with, that are pretty fair at their skill as it is.

after an hour, I ranked 3,000th at SPA with R18 with only ABS. I feel ok with that, and I know I can practice hard, tune mildly, to shave 1s to place top 1,500, knowing there are at least 100+ top rankers that cheated their way in there, I just wish to see them replicate those times on another PS3 in public.

p.s, that car handles a little too unrealistically easy on this track, albeit it's just a virtual simulator after all.
 
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Corners on tracks all over the world are cut to varying degrees on the fastest driving line. Not all tracks or all corners but some definitely. It's legal in the real races at those real tracks so why should it be any different in GT6? To be clear I'm speaking of controlled driving through corners for the fastest lap times possible NOT blatently cheating by driving lawn mower style across the grass or blasting through a chicane only to allow the wall to slow you down.

GTPlanet Weekly Race Series rules state that:

"01: OLR General Rules:

J:
Cutting the chicanes or "shorting" the track at any point is strictly prohibited on all parts of the track, including the asphalt-areas in behind out-of track-lines. Track specific boundaries will be clarified in the Race Specifics section of any given event."

AND

"16: Offline Racing:

B:
Two wheels (except when airborne, where the vertical projection of the car onto the track counts) must be in contact with the track/circuit which includes the rumble strips and footpaths, but not grassed areas.

C:
On city courses the track border is the limit of the usable track.

D:
All green areas are not part of the track unless otherwise stated in the Race Specifics section of any given event.

E:
Curbs, sidewalks/pavements are not part of the track unless otherwise stated in the Race Specifics section of any given event.

F:
Tarmac/Asphalt or any other kind of surface mentioned above that are situated beyond the normal limits of the track, Run-off areas for example, are not part of the track unless otherwise stated in the Race Specifics section of any given event.

G:
Any kind of rumble strip made of concrete, stone etc are part of the track unless otherwise stated in the Race Specifics section of any given event."

These are the rules I live by when racing for fun or competition.

Sark
 
Lambob
that probably hack their PS3's and or game data, or the expensive hardware firewalls behind their devices that fool netcode into their unrealstic -10s laptimes

I take any top leader times with a huge chunk of salt, and I feel good about myself if I can beat friends I know I play with, that are pretty fair at their skill as it is.

knowing there are at least 100+ top rankers that cheated their way in there, I just wish to see them replicate those times on another PS3 in public.
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These threads are always fun because they almost always end up with posts like these. Which might as well just say in giant bold letters "I can't compete so they must cheat". :crazy:

SRF - I don't know what it is or why it's there. What I do know is everyone has the same ability to turn it on. Either turn it on and compete, or don't and enjoy your non SRF driving. But people who are using it are not cheating. Period.

On the cuts, again, noone's penalty system is perfect. And those who are truly sim minded will be the ones learning the ins and outs of the penalty system and taking advantage of whatever they can from it. Yes I said sim. Because that's what EVERY real race driver would do. Period.

And I always find these cheater arguments funny on sim(cade) racing games. I've been called a cheater (and seen it alluded to around here even) for using a controller. Really? I'm the cheat for using the bone stock equipment the system came with, but the guy with the 1000 dollar wheel/cockpit setup is somehow legit. In every other game on the planet, the guy who shows up with the expensive aftermarket controller is going to be seen as the cheat. Go on one of these competitive shooters and announce you've got a $500 special controller and you're going to be labeled a cheat in a hurry.
 
I dunno if this is true but pd seem to make corner cutting less tolerant depending on speed, I've been cutting corners on de la sarth in my x2011, even though I keep 2 wheels on track pd seem to consider it invalid, wtf?
 
Sadly a lot of you forget that the whole point of seasonals is seeing where you place among the average player. With SRF being an option, tuning, cutting and other variables it really destroys the purpose.
 
An easy way to stop corner cutting is to do what they did in GT Academy and put CONES on the corners, hit a cone and you're disqualified.
 
To me the time trials are more about seeing how much of the track you can cut and get away with than anything else, and by cutting I mean seeing how far you can get your car off a corner.
 
For the casual player, who will probably not be playing gt6 much longer, I can understand SRF being on. They want to earn millions of credits too.
An easy fix would for PD to make a smarter leaderboard or database where you can select options and truly compare yourself. Even if it was web, or smartphone based. I would check it. As is the leaderboards are vapid and utterly useless to me.

Edit: sorry this thread is about chicane cutting.
 
On the Mario Antretti one, if you look at the fastest guys replay his car goes 70% off track on some places.
Yet do that on another corner you get a Lap Invalidated.

The penalty system is screwed.

I get Next lap invalidated when I go wide on the last corner.
So not only was my current lap screwed cause of the going wide, I also lost speed onto the pit straight making my next lap a bit worse but PD dont see it this way.
 
HBR-Roadhog
I'm not sure what some people are complaining about. two wheels on track is legal, your can run on the kurb, in the grass or whatever so long as you keep 2 wheels on the track it should be ok other than the fact that you may loose control by hitting the curbs or grass.

I think PD do a pretty good job on this though maybe not everywhere but most places at least unlike Forza which will disqualify your laps in some places for just touching a curb. It seemed better on Forza 4 than it was on 3 but still an issue.

On Forza 3 if you ran the ideal racing line through the chicanes on the straight at LaSarthe you would incur 6 ! flags and that is just for getting the tire on the curbs even if you do not cross them at all. In other places you could have 90% of the car off track and still be ok, took a lot of time to learn where you could and could not use the proper fast racing line without having your lap DQed
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I have to correct you re: "you can run on the kurb, in the grass or whatever"... you most definitely can't, I have tried it in Cote D'Azur and i can assure you it just doesn't work... i had to keep all four wheels on track all of the time...

On a more serious note... i agree with you completely, as long as you keep 2 wheels on the track... it is considered a legal time... no excuses whatsoever, the only thing i don't like about these seasonals is the SRF on option, at least if it's going to be this way, put 2 separate leaderboards
 
I really think that they should tie the SRF to the ASM and TCS forcing both ASM and TCS on if you activate SRF. I think that would allow the lesser drivers to have a chance using the assists and cause the fastest out there to be slower if they opt to use it. Of course I haven't tested this to be sure in GT6 but I remember on GT5 ASM killed a bit of speed in the corners where SRF adds some, I think they should cancel out and possibly make the car a bbit slower but much easier to drive for those who can't handle a bit of oversteer
 
Time trials seem to me more "Rally" rules... I saw a clip of a German Rally that ran the Nurburgring backwards for a lap... all as you would expect. Except this driver drives through Adanaur Forst, clean over the kerbs. And does the same trick up the hill at Hatzenbach...


In Real life Rally, anything goes. And seasonals are hot laps. You can get away with clobbering kerbs and mowing the grass and hooking the inside wheel on the wrong side of kerbstones. Without the risk of cracking a wheel or breaking a strut let alone picking up a puncture.

Cones would be nice. Hit one and you are done - Out of the car. Hang up your helmet. For you, the Time Trial over! -

Driving Aids (Thought we were talking about cutting corners here?)
 
phil_75
I noticed the fastest time in the S2000 Matterhorn TT is 1.40!
I am at 1.51!
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yeah im always a good 10 seconds off the current leader... makes you wonder what kind of witchcraft they posses to find 10 seconds that i cant do in an already flawless lap.
 
HBR-Roadhog
I really think that they should tie the SRF to the ASM and TCS forcing both ASM and TCS on if you activate SRF. I think that would allow the lesser drivers to have a chance using the assists and cause the fastest out there to be slower if they opt to use it. Of course I haven't tested this to be sure in GT6 but I remember on GT5 ASM killed a bit of speed in the corners where SRF adds some, I think they should cancel out and possibly make the car a bbit slower but much easier to drive for those who can't handle a bit of oversteer
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I'd say allow all aids on every TT or Seasonal, but the leaderboards only display those laps completed with ABS1. Everyone wins.
 
Without corner cutting, I think lap times would be running much longer. Though, it seems that all the rulebooks seem to condone corner cutting to the extent mentioned above with 2 wheels on track.

If you don't like corner cutting, try doing Super License 5 and getting gold without cutting the first S Turn on Ascari. You had two options, one is to plow straight through cutting both corners with 2 wheels on track at all times, or you could try performing a 3 point turn in the cruise ship- I meant Bugatti. :P
 
Johnnypenso
I'd say allow all aids on every TT or Seasonal, but the leaderboards only display those laps completed with ABS1. Everyone wins.
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Why would it display only those laps? Everyone should have a chance at posting a time on the leaderboards not just those who use a specific set of settings.

My point was that some drivers need to have some assists and others don't If they were linked I think it would solve the problem. I know a few drivers who are definitely faster when using ASM and TCS where as I am faster without it. The reason they are faster with the assists is because without them they have a hard time controlling the car and get into trouble in corners. The assists actually are slower but they are faster with them. if SRF forced the use of TCS and ASM that very well may solve the issues people have with fast drivers using SRF.

I do not use SRF nor ASM, I do use some TCS on some cars and none on others.
 
HBR-Roadhog
Why would it display only those laps? Everyone should have a chance at posting a time on the leaderboards not just those who use a specific set of settings.

My point was that some drivers need to have some assists and others don't If they were linked I think it would solve the problem. I know a few drivers who are definitely faster when using ASM and TCS where as I am faster without it. The reason they are faster with the assists is because without them they have a hard time controlling the car and get into trouble in corners. The assists actually are slower but they are faster with them. if SRF forced the use of TCS and ASM that very well may solve the issues people have with fast drivers using SRF.

I do not use SRF nor ASM, I do use some TCS on some cars and none on others.
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Why would limiting leaderboards to ABS1 only, disqualify anyone from laying down a time? Answer: It wouldn't.

For the Seasonal TT's to have any meaning, they have to put the physics to the test, that means the most realistic settings possible. Your idea of forcing them to use TCS and ASM with SRF has some merit, but if for some reason it turns out to be faster on some tracks then that's what all the top drivers will use. I see no problem with limiting results to ABS1 only. If a slow driver really wants to get on the board, run a few laps with SRF, get your money, then switch to ABS1 like everyone else and lay down a time. No one is left out.
 

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