Damage build in GT5 - READ FIRST POST before voting

What level of damage should GT5 have?

  • Minimal, less than 25 percent as in Ferrari Challenge

    Votes: 25 8.1%

  • 25 - 35 percent or less, as in Forza Motorsports

    Votes: 40 12.9%

  • 50 percent or less as with ToCA, GRID

    Votes: 57 18.4%

  • 75 percent or less, as in GTR Evolution, rFactor, etc

    Votes: 58 18.8%

  • 100 percent, as close to real life as it gets

    Votes: 129 41.7%
  • Total voters
    309
I keep waffling on this point. I think this is the one true mystery of GT5, whether there will be damage, on which cars, and how much. I haven't read SONY's financial reports, though I know they aren't made of money like Microsoft. And as rich as M$ is, they still couldn't persuade all the automakers they licensed in Forza 2 to allow even the same level of damage on their cars. This is a testament to how hard it is to get car makers to go along with anyone, even waving a briefcase full of cash, and another in the hall outside.

Everyone is aware of how significant Gran Turismo is, how much it has shaped western and even eastern car culture, but especially here in the west. Kazunori is everyone's friend. Everyone wants to be in GT5. The question is, how badly? What pride would they swallow for Kaz that they wouldn't for Dan Greenawald of Turn 10?

Someone mentioned that Polyphony isn't the biggest game company around, which is true, but they are bigger than most. They have around 120 employees (that they admit to anyway) who have been at this for some time, squeezing performance out of the PS2 in Gran Turismo 4 that very few expected. And cars and tracks out the wazoo. How many games can boast of having well over 500 cars, over 700 including duplicates with minor variations? Even lacking some of the things people wanted in GT4, such as damage and online, it was a superb game and sold more than 10 million units worldwide over the past four years. And it sold so well because of all the details and features put into it.

The PS3 is proving that it can outshine most games on any system in the hands of a skilled developer. I posted in another thread of what has been accomplished in some games so astonishing that they are still held up as standards a year later. Developers such as Insomniac, Naughty Dog, Kojima Productions, Guerilla, Zipper Interactive and many more have shown that the PS3 is capable of delivering an experience which is truly as cinematic as any movie, and in real time. Polyphony Digital is no less capable. Even as people point out the shortcomings in GT5 Prologue, even more talk of how realistic it is, especially the graphics. How many people are fooled into thinking they're watching a racing movie when it's a Prologue replay. Kaz's team know their stuff, and they undoubtedly have access to whatever technology, tools and knowledge they need, because Polyphony is as first party as it gets with SONY. When you see a video of the new Ratchet & Clank game, Killzone or Uncharted, keep in mind that what's going on with damage and dynamic physics on small objects could apply just as much to what's in the GT5 Engine. This has to do with damage, weather, destructible scenery, tire physics, even bot A.I.

I don't know what will be in GT5 and what won't, but I know the game is going to be something truly epic.
 
25 - 35 percent or less, as in Forza Motorsports. So that idiots stop bothering us with Forza's damage.
 
100%!

I've always been interested in damage in race games. In 2001 I started playing 1sane (still loving this game). It has damage, mechanical as structural.
the advantage in this game was that you could press a button and your totally destroyed car was repaired ingame, losing a few seconds.

I want 100% damage in GT5, mechanical as structural. 100% damage isn't user friendly but I personally don't care. There should be a damage on/off switch in the game or maybe if possible an option were you can choose the degree of damage you want.
 
My heart wants 100% but the logical choice is 25% or less, though 100% damage my persuade the n00bs to not use me as a bumper online due to screwing up their car in the process.


skingg
I certainly hope they learn a thing or two from Guerilla's Killzone 2 on how to do smoke and particle effects well.
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I agree 100% smoke isnt that hard to do properly, even EA got it right in NFS: Pro Street.
 
GT5 WITH DAMAGE !!!

I CANT IMAGINE HOW THATS COME IN THE GAME

FRANKLY THE DAMAGE IN Ferrari Challenge,FORZA,GRID LOOKS SOOOOOO BAD !!
IN ALL WAYS (MINIMAL-MAXIMAM)

SO GUYZ !! HOW CAN U FEELS SATISFACTION ABOUT WHAT GONNA POLYPHONY DIGITAL 2 DO ABOUT THIS !!
 
i want damage like PD could do... PD work perfect.. they do always best...
if they will put it, 25 50 75 % it will be the best...im sure..

but im also sure that they will put nothing....
 
You know what, I don't want damage when it comes to licenses and other tests in GT5. I only want damage during races and online (on or off possibility).
 
I'm beginning to wonder if the complete lack of ANY information at all on Gran Turismo 5 less than a week from E3 isn't a significant hint that damage is coming. My reasoning runs like this:

It's pretty much announced that Forza 3 will be shown in some form or fashion at E3. Everyone knows there will be more cars and tracks. Damage is there already in the earlier versions. The number of cars per race off and online isn't known, but supposedly the Forza 3 engine was built from scratch, so maybe this time they can get their 12 car races. And bug free game, maybe. What Big Thing would Forza 3 offer? I'm thinking not much new, just a bigger race field to remotely match Prologue. Turn 10 had quite a bit of egg on their faces when they had to eat many of the promises made for Forza 2, and then suffer the humiliation of a field of cars in Prologue which was twice as large, and everything looking much, much better.

Forza 2 was an indication to me that the easier to program console just didn't have a lot of untapped resources, when they couldn't do much better than increase the in-race framerate and add a lot of layers to the paint shop from Forza 1. And Gears 2, with its whopping 5 on 5 online matches. Wii. But what could bring Forza 3 to ZOMG status? Weather? Speedboat and helicopter races? Doubtful. More than likely, a little boost here and there with much the same game as Forza 2, which really would be all it needed to sell pretty well. Pretty much all the 360 library has been about for three years.

So what about GT5? What is everyone so hot n bothered about? Even though there are about a dozen things most gamers would tack on from return of all the old tracks from previous games, custom music playlists, private lobbies and races, racing mod and livery editor with an online auction feature and so on, two things I think stick out as Big Things:
  • Damage
  • Season Mode, and Season Mode Online, with possibly Career Mode as well
Nearly as big are race mod with liveries, weather and day/night changes, especially if it's variable weather. But personally, since so many games have had paint and decal shops, I don't think it would be too hard at all to deliver that, so I fully expect race mod and liveries to be there, and as big a deal as weather and time changes could be, I don't think too many people would miss it. The hue and cry for weather in Forza and many racing games is pretty muted.

Likewise, a Season Mode wouldn't really be hard to code at all. For starters, it would be restricted to a handful of cars, since it would be a recreation of league play of a certain racing class. For the rest, it would simply be a matter of creating a reasonable calendar like any other sports game has, assigning specific tracks to certain racing days, adding in a stat tracking database, involving a structure of sponsorships, and it's done. It would be basically the same thing as GT Mode, just restricted to a class of cars. How hard is that? Online is a different matter, but the major hurdle there is having servers in place, and I'm sure that's either coming or is there already.

Gran Turismo fans are already used to having a lot of cars and tracks around. So what Big Thing is left, which everyone is calling for? No, not reverse lights. :P

Damage.

I might be wrong, and even if it is in, I don't know what form it will take, but I expect it now, and I think it'll make everyone happy. Well, in the case of damage just for race cars and possibly tuners, most people happy. And by the way, yes it will be adjustable, so don't sweat it.
 
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Im pretty sure there will be damage

To what extent im not sure, but if you think about it all that matters is that there is a down side to crashing

In real racing, and a rule for driving any car, crashing is THE last thing you want to do!!

You do everything in your power to not crash, because it will cost you money

So all i want is there to be some form of consequence for messing up and smashing into a wall at 300kph, or using other cars as brakes.

Who cares how realistic the 3 inch deep cut to your carbon fibre front aero looks, as long as the performance suffers its realistic. As a race driver, your only worry is finishing, not looking good, or realistic for that matter.

But damage has been the main, (and only in my opinion) downside to GT, Kaz knows that, and now that he has the hardware to pull it off, he will!

And in spectacular fashion. jaw dropping, social life ruining, astonishing, unbeleivable spectacular fashion
 
Tenacious D

PD has confirmed the cars in GT5 are built from components as confirmed by a PD spokesman. I know for a fact the bumpers are separate and can be removed from the car, as I heard that in an interview with a PD spokesman. How many components of a car can be removed I am not sure, as he did not elaborate.

So I ask you, if Damage in GT5 turns out to be parts of the car falling off in impact, like the bumpers, lights, or maybe even doors, where does that fall in your Damage Build categories? 25%? 50%? 75%? 100%?
 
There is no doubt that all want 100% damage so it will be as real as possible.

I'm not sure if all read the first post before they voted here. So still I think the Poll may not intierly be correct.

My point of opinion to this is simple after reading the first post and voted accrodingly.

25 to 35% as in forza motorsport.


So that atleast ther will be some damage...
 
Codename L
25 - 35 percent or less, as in Forza Motorsports. So that idiots stop bothering us with Forza's damage.
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Yeah man, I think FORZA 2 damage was not perfect, but I liked it, going over bump at high speed messed up the suspension, you could crash the car, sure you could drive at 5 MPH but it was enough for you to stop the race. I like it, GT5 does not need anything TOO MUCH over that system.
 
if PD put in damage will be more perfect than any other kind of racing game...
damage is a chimera, if we will see it only in racing cars im happy...

about the composition of the cars in gt, yes PD told that this is the "key", many parts are assembled and we could wonder about damage, but i think is more easy that they do it not for damage but for tuned parts...
 
Earth
So I ask you, if Damage in GT5 turns out to be parts of the car falling off in impact, like the bumpers, lights, or maybe even doors, where does that fall in your Damage Build categories? 25%? 50%? 75%? 100%?
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That's the million dollar question. What will the car companies allow?

Kazunori himself has said more than once that damage was coming, and to me it indicated that they were making progress with the car makers, or had even sealed a deal. But then there's the matter of how much they would allow, and this question can't be guessed at. Kaz can't just tell them, "I'm going to tear up your cars." That wouldn't fly, and he's too respectful of their wishes. You have to be, if you want to be on good terms with them, and have the cars in your game for that matter, so they had to come to an understanding. The bad global economy might have pushed them a bit.

Scaff and others in the car biz or formerly so have mentioned how hard it is to crack that nut with many car companies, especially overly protective ones like Ferrari. So this is going to be the boundary, what Ferrari allows, and as has been mentioned, Ferrari hasn't allowed much, at least not visually. And I have little doubt Kazunori would produce a game like Forza where other makes would have a biiit more damage. Now race cars and maybe tuners 100%... I'm not too sure. That would make GT5 kind of lopsided, where you had street car gameplay and something different for pro racing gameplay, and I'm thinking he wouldn't like that.

It's possible he has non-street cars suffering 100% damage or close to it and the rest none, but I have a feeling he's scored some kind of coup, and we'll see all cars taking something between Forza and GRID level damage. In five days, we should know. Something...

GAH! The torture...:lol:
 
Surely it can't be long now? - Of course - even when E3 starts - we won't know when the GT5 section of it will be... will it be the First out of the blocks? Or will they save it for last - the ultimate trump card?

C.
 
Speaking of trump cards, I thought about it a little more through the day, as work is mind numbingly boring and literally puts me to sleep. The people love me so much there...

Anyway, once again I vacillate. The post I made a couple weeks ago popped into my head, where I played out a scenario where Kazunori came on stage at E3, and after speaking about GT5 at length, said something like, "I am saddened to tell you that Gran Turismo 5 will not have damage at release."

I forget how many car companies Kaz is dealing with... 60? 70? The chance for a couple of malcontents to derail the whole damage program isn't small. And who is the new big player in the game? Ferrari, one of the companies who are the hardest to please. I suspect that the Polyphony team have gone ahead and modeled some amazing damage effects that haven't been authorized by the car makers yet, and Kaz is working his Kissinger skills to death to sway the car companies to allowing it. So if damage is still pending, what would be the reason for such secrecy?

Maybe it's everything else in the wishlist.
  • Career and Season Mode, and Season Mode Online
  • Weather, maybe dynamic
  • Time of day changes
  • Racing modification, with a wide selection of racing spec bodykits and upgrade components to suit a car to a particular racing league
  • Perhaps blank race cars and tuners, or cars with paint jobs which can be painted over
  • A paint shop, and along with that, a full blown livery editor with a range of decals, fonts and national flags
  • Extensive online structure including voice chat, private lobbies and races, online event tools and race series creators
  • Photo and Movie mode with extensive editing features
  • A staggering number of cars and tracks, including all the fantasy tracks from previous GT games. In addition, a massive list of used cars structured for timed release through dealerships.
  • Etc.
We all know the wishlists. I still expect damage to be included, but I would think the dead silence means we're in for Amar's feast, and a feast means an abundance.

Darn, I'm hungry... :lol:
 
Theres no doubt they will have modelled a damage engine, but as you say its getting it approved that is the problem.

But even if they wont allow their cars to be smashed to peices, surely they wouldnt have an objection to the cars suffering mechanical and performance damage.

I mean im sure nobody would be turned away from buying a car if it doesent work as well after plowing into the wall at 200kph, like, no F ing kidding its going to break something!
 
TiZzla
I mean im sure nobody would be turned away from buying a car if it doesent work as well after plowing into the wall at 200kph, like, no F ing kidding its going to break something!
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I can see it now...

Hello - is that Ford.

Yes

I crashed my car into a motorway barrier the other day - and now the wheels are no longer connected to the suspension - I want a refund.

No.

But I played Gran Turismo and I did that at twice the speed - and I could still drive perfectly fine.

Click burr.
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C.
 
Well, now I have another question.

If I was playing the odds in Monaco, I would say, chances are that the level of damage in GT5 would be about what a Ferrari would suffer in Forza 2, with the possible exception of race cars and tuners which could be anything. Maybe. Kaz has had two years or more time to work on the stubborn officials, so who knows, but chances are a damage build of approximately 25% reality.

But, suppose with additional incentives - and money, Kaz could win over even Ferrari to something approaching 50%. The sticker is that it would require more time to both seal the deal and come up with the cash, beyond the point it could be included in the release build. Frankly, I'd rather have the whole game use the same damage build, as street cars having little or no damage versus race cars having awesome damage would be out of whack to me.

So, my question is, would it be okay for GT5 to have no damage at launch and have all or most of the wishlist in the game, if something substantial could be added later? Would that be enough to make you guys happy? Or would you rather GT5 have something for now, even if it's just piddling stuff like paint scarring, dents and wheel misalignment? And keep in mind that patching a game engine properly is harder than getting it right from the start, so it might be a lot easier to patch in an entire damage build than a tweak of an existing one later, meaning a delay and possible intermittent bugs.

So what say ye?
 
As stated by KY previously - he'd planned on updating Prologue with damage...

So - if it's there or not at release - I don't think it will be that difficult to update it to have damage at a later date.

(As a software developer I can't see much difference except for perhaps physical download size)

C.
 
Tenacious D
Well, now I have another question.

If I was playing the odds in Monaco, I would say, chances are that the level of damage in GT5 would be about what a Ferrari would suffer in Forza 2, with the possible exception of race cars and tuners which could be anything. Maybe. Kaz has had two years or more time to work on the stubborn officials, so who knows, but chances are a damage build of approximately 25% reality.

But, suppose with additional incentives - and money, Kaz could win over even Ferrari to something approaching 50%. The sticker is that it would require more time to both seal the deal and come up with the cash, beyond the point it could be included in the release build. Frankly, I'd rather have the whole game use the same damage build, as street cars having little or no damage versus race cars having awesome damage would be out of whack to me.

So, my question is, would it be okay for GT5 to have no damage at launch and have all or most of the wishlist in the game, if something substantial could be added later? Would that be enough to make you guys happy? Or would you rather GT5 have something for now, even if it's just piddling stuff like paint scarring, dents and wheel misalignment? And keep in mind that patching a game engine properly is harder than getting it right from the start, so it might be a lot easier to patch in an entire damage build than a tweak of an existing one later, meaning a delay and possible intermittent bugs.

So what say ye?
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Personally i would still be happy without damage

But there has been too much hype, and the fact that Kaz has actually been talking about damage is just too much to deny us any damage yet again
 
yeti
As stated by KY previously - he'd planned on updating Prologue with damage...

So - if it's there or not at release - I don't think it will be that difficult to update it to have damage at a later date.

(As a software developer I can't see much difference except for perhaps physical download size)
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So here we are. GT5 is a couple of months or so from release, and word from The Man himself is that only selected cars are going to have damage. There was a small riot here on the boards, though things have quieted down a lot.

Damage is most likely only going to be on race cars. 170 cars sounds like too small a number to include Tuners. Then again, Kaz has also said that the 170 figure may not be the final amount.

I think we may never see damage on street or super cars. Because of the stubbornness of certain carmakers like Ferrari, which are notorious for wanting no damage in a video game at all, it looks pretty bleak. It's not a matter of having to model damage on 1000 cars, as has been speculated. Look at FW3... okay, Forza 3. ;) 400 some-odd cars, and most likely, just as in FM1 and 2, different makes will suffer different amounts of damage. MS must have paid Ferrari an astronomical sum to get the damage builds they were allowed. This is something Kazunori-dono wouldn't tolerate in Gran Turismo, different makes taking different levels of damage. Why race anything but the most impregnable cars? I like his choice, personally. I mean, look at my doomsday scenario in the first post. SONY would never pay a king's ransom to get minimum damage on Ferraris.

But then there's the future. I'm leery of patching, because it's almost always less stable and bug resistant than doing your coding right to start with. But suppose GT5 sells like hotcakes, and certain manufacturers are slightly more accomodating. Would you like street cars taking Ferrari level damage, while race cars and Tuners, and possibly Race Modded street cars took full damage? Frankly, I'd find it a bit silly, but... I'd accept it. What about you?
 
mechanical: between 0-100% variable by player.

Visual: I doubt we will ever see over 25% of what should have happened in any console game. The "power" behind them is far too limited to make any decent crash damage physics without sacraficing other things
 
Well, keep in mind on that point that the console games DiRT, GRID, MotorStorm and Burnout absolutely smoke any visual damage I've seen in a PC sim. It's pretty clear that convincing damage doesn't have much to do with system power. Besides, the PS3 is capable of as much processing as a high end PC.
 
Well the 'real driving simulator' should simulate real driving, so I guess that includes simulating real life crashes - mostly minor, and a few big and disastrous
 
Realistic damage or no damage apart from tire wear and engine wear.

What's the point if it's not 100 percent realistic?

I would much rather have realistic weather than half assed damage, I don't crash that much but I am getting fed up driving in summer sunshine all the time.

I just hope PD haven't paid too much attention to all the whinging about no damage and focused too much time and effort on this instead of a decent weather system.

And like someone said before, I don't agree that the level of damage is proportional to processing power, in that way the OP is very misleading, if a body panel gets bent 50 degrees with a 100mph impact with 10 percent damage then for 100 percent damage it gets bent 50 degrees with a lower impact, it's not the "level" of damage that takes the processing power, it's how realistic it looks and reacts to it's surroundings.
 
Although i'm slightly disappointed at the news that it's probably only the race cars that will have the damage model implemented on them, is it really going to make that much difference to the playing experience?

I suspect most people will be using either the bumper or cockpit cam so any damage, with the exception of an open bonnet/hood, is likely to largely go unseen. It's only those who use chase cam, or religiously watch race replays, who will be mainly effected. As long as whatever level of mechanical damage that sits alongside the visual damage is also implemented on the non-damage model road cars then it should still give everyone a level playing field.

It's also fairly likely that races you enter with a race or rally cars, are mostly going to be against other race or rally cars, so the disparity between the two is unlikely to arise all that often.
 

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