Damage in GT7 Discussion

[Eager Snake]

What myth about damage in games did they debunk? That is takes up GPU/CPU or something etc?

Oh no, there was this "myth" for quite some time, that for example, Mercedez Benz or BMW, didn't want to see their cars damaged in the game.

 

[Johnnypenso]

What myth about damage in games did they debunk? That is takes up GPU/CPU or something etc?

The myth that manufacturers put limitations on game devs about how much damage their cars can show. I've seen it used dozens of times to explain why GT doesn't have extensive damage modeling. Stefano Casillo said in an interview that it was an "urban myth" and that the only restrictions imposed on him for Assetto Corsa involved not displaying blood and guts and nothing to do with car damage. I can find the interview if you like, I've posted it several times.

GT's big elephant in the room when it comes to damage is standard cars IMO. They are essentially a big shell with painted on body panel separations, not individual pieces like a premium car. So what do you do with standards if you want damage in the game, that's the dilemma. Do you have two levels of damage? Two cars collide, one loses it's rear bumper and the boot, and the other one gets a scratch and drives on? How will that look on Youtube? How will it play out in the game?

 

[Noname0529]

Just putting my opinion out there, but what if PD kept the cars looking the same with markings and scratches like in GT6, but the car's components would take damage. For example if you crash in to a wall at a high speed, the car would look slightly damaged, but it would handle and accelerate much worse.

 

[JKgo]

Do you have two levels of damage? Two cars collide, one loses it's rear bumper and the boot, and the other one gets a scratch and drives on? How will that look on Youtube? How will it play out in the game?

.......................Actually that would be quite funny to watch, frankly speaking.....

 

[Griffith500]

.......................Actually that would be quite funny to watch, frankly speaking.....

Nuh-uh, games is srs!
OK, it'll be slightly jarring, maybe even annoying. But I don't know why I should care what others think of it; what matters is my experience, that's why I'm playing games.

I'm personally more interested in the driving implications of damage than the aesthetic, although having a visual indication of what's broken is useful if you can't figure it out from the control interactions.

 

[05XR8]

With current graphics and know-how, there is nothing to hold PD back from making the standard car damage look like damage from ToCA 1(bonnet off or shaking, exposing the engine, bumper off exposing bumper bar, wobbling wheels, missing tyres). As mentioned in earlier posts, it comes down to PD.

The GT6 scratches and grime build-up from wet races are fine. We're just missing consequences from too much curb, contact with AI, shifting to early and over revving and drafting too much. Overheating/worn tyres is fine as well. We need more blow outs and tyre debris on the track.

And another thing: damage and AI go hand in hand. There is no more worrying feeling, having to nurse damaged steering and a damaged gearbox, along with a missing drivers door, defending your 1st Place position at Brands Hatch and hearing over the radio, "Eight laps to go!", with 15 hungry AI drivers.

 

[Zuku]

The myth that manufacturers put limitations on game devs about how much damage their cars can show. I've seen it used dozens of times to explain why GT doesn't have extensive damage modeling. Stefano Casillo said in an interview that it was an "urban myth" and that the only restrictions imposed on him for Assetto Corsa involved not displaying blood and guts and nothing to do with car damage. I can find the interview if you like, I've posted it several times.

GT's big elephant in the room when it comes to damage is standard cars IMO. They are essentially a big shell with painted on body panel separations, not individual pieces like a premium car. So what do you do with standards if you want damage in the game, that's the dilemma. Do you have two levels of damage? Two cars collide, one loses it's rear bumper and the boot, and the other one gets a scratch and drives on? How will that look on Youtube? How will it play out in the game?

OKay I do remember that too from long back think in GT4 days as matter of fact, but it also doesn't help and this is probably the most irrelevant post in the world, but played Forza 5 and you know what there is officially nothing GT can do to bring me back I felt like I've seen the light playing Forza 5 and it wasn't even damage either that did it. It was the doggone scenery/backdrop of a living breathing city man it made me cry

Carry on!

 

[Griffith500]

With current graphics and know-how, there is nothing to hold PD back from making the standard car damage look like damage from ToCA 1(bonnet off or shaking, exposing the engine, bumper off exposing bumper bar, wobbling wheels, missing tyres). As mentioned in earlier posts, it comes down to PD.

This all requires modeling and rigging effort from PD, which is effort they're not going to put into Standards. That said, it may be what the semi Premiums are about, if only in part.

The GT6 scratches and grime build-up from wet races are fine. We're just missing consequences from too much curb, contact with AI, shifting to early and over revving and drafting too much. Overheating/worn tyres is fine as well. We need more blow outs and tyre debris on the track.

And another thing: damage and AI go hand in hand. There is no more worrying feeling, having to nurse damaged steering and a damaged gearbox, along with a missing drivers door, defending your 1st Place position at Brands Hatch and hearing over the radio, "Eight laps to go!", with 15 hungry AI drivers.

Extra mechanical consequences are duly welcome. The AI may yet get improvements in GT6, the BSpec update will give clues at the very least.

 

[05XR8]

Looking at the little car in the bottom left hand corner gets annoying in offline racing. It has lights, front grill and windows. Makes me wonder what's in store for the diagram when GT7 drops. Headlight/tailight malfunctions, damage to windscreen, it even has outboard mirrors.

 

[Griffith500]

I think it's just meant to be recognisable as a car; and it's on the left, incidentally. To be fair, I only really "understood" right and left when my Dad showed me how a steering wheel worked in a car: it's how I remember to this day! Haha. I've yet to come up with a way to remember east from west, aside from using right and left instead...

Anyway, yeah, it's just a convenient background for the animated red overlays used for indicating wheel and suspension (alignment) damage. How do you ensure players know which end is the front, for instance? They could easily add more overlays, for different things, of course.

 

[05XR8]

Just edited.

Seeing as how the Heavy Damage is non-existant for offline players (I don't know if it's used online), and no tyre wear in Single Player, it should be left out.

 

[Griffith500]

Just edited.

Seeing as how the Heavy Damage is non-existant for offline players (I don't know if it's used online), and no tyre wear in Single Player, it should be left out.

Oh I see. It still serves as a useful directional reminder for the "tyre temperature" guages that the wear gauges remain as, even with everything turned off. No point fiddling about with too many special case UI elements, either.

 

[ZedMan1996]

Damage I feel is the least well done aspect of GT. Behind AI, behind sound, behind all that is damage.

And for those who think damage isnt important and adds little to nothing, please watch this video. If :57 doesnt make your heart skip a beat not much will

Well considering I've seen a side-by-side 3 car crash at 120mph during the 24Hrs of Nurb about 200m after The Carrusel happen right infront of me just 2m from me, with a Porsche kartwheeling in the air, and me being the only witness there, suddenly with hundreds of people gathering around me and asking me awhat happened, this game crash here doesn't even make me blink.

Anyway, back to topic, you have to consider that real manufacturers dont like having their cars smashed up too much, thats why games with official manufacturers that have them in their games officially as standard, dont have that brilliant crashing models, but if you're talking crashing physics, then yes, thats one thing GT certainly needs to learn, plus it will reduce contact during race, because as of now, you can get away with a bit of contact.

 

[Bede]

Maybe PD should fire and smoke in the crash physics for GT7
Not many games have that

 

[Bede]

Maybe PD should add fire and smoke into the crash physics in GT7
Not many games have that





Might have sent this twice?

 

[ZedMan1996]

Maybe PD should add fire and smoke into the crash physics in GT7
Not many games have that





Might have sent this twice?

I dont blame you if you're using a phone, it sends double messages sometiems.

 

[sk8er913]

I dont blame you if you're using a phone, it sends double messages sometiems.

Its a slow internet connection + processing lag, happens on my PC, not my phone. Because my phones connection is 20 times faster and my phones processor is 70% as fast.

 

[ZedMan1996]

Its a slow internet connection + processing lag, happens on my PC, not my phone. Because my phones connection is 20 times faster and my phones processor is 70% as fast.

I take that back then hahaha!

 

[Vspectra]

Procedural damage with door/body panel removal from pre-release GT5 will probably make its comeback in full glory. They already have the tech and modelling individual body parts.

They probably removed it in GT6 because the final version in GT5 ended up looking weird a lot of time and probably wasn't to Kaz's standard. There was a bunch of clipping issues.

 

[ZedMan1996]

Procedural damage with door/body panel removal from pre-release GT5 will probably make its comeback in full glory. They already have the tech and modelling individual body parts.

They probably removed it in GT6 because the final version in GT5 ended up looking weird a lot of time and probably wasn't to Kaz's standard. There was a bunch of clipping issues.

Well in GT5 all of those panels used to flap around and get smashed off if you tried hard enough, even online.

I remember one time in a drifting lobby, someone was drifitng a Blitz R34, Nomuken's car, and he scraped past me and WHEEEE his door flew off and hot another drifter, and actually span him out hahaha!

 

[oli440]

Procedural damage with door/body panel removal from pre-release GT5 will probably make its comeback in full glory. They already have the tech and modelling individual body parts.

They probably removed it in GT6 because the final version in GT5 ended up looking weird a lot of time and probably wasn't to Kaz's standard. There was a bunch of clipping issues.

I actually believe that this type of damage was removed from GT6 because of hardware limitations. It correlates with how the rain effects were downgraded, and the fact that the lighting engine is a little less consistent than it was in GT5.

On top of that, door panels and opening bonnets on cars will be highly unlikely across all cars unless they are re-scanned under the bonnet (which will be time consuming), as those WRC cars are one offs. I'm pretty sure those cars are the only ones to support that level of damage. Other premium cars are less so.

I have no doubt that, at minimum, body deformation will return in GT7. They just need to make it more believable. Like I said, it should by no means be a priority, but with hardware as powerful as the PS4, there is really no excuse towards adding an upgraded version of GT5's damage modelling.

It's no crashing simulator, but when I hit a wall, I expect to have cosmetic proof for the insurance company

 

[Tokyoracer247]

Damage doesn't really make or break the game for me.
-------------------------------
But they should really include all of the old tracks from previous installments and make as many of them time/weather variable instead of using space to have static tracks AND variable counterparts
Ex: Costa di Amalfi, Hong Kong, Citta di Aria, Grindelwald, Tahiti Maze, Complex String, Rome 1st gen., Chamonix 1st gen., Special Stage Route 11 (both generations), etc.

An idea for the GT7 UI for track selection could be like this:
1) Select type of circuit (rally, original, world, city)
2) Choose track (let's say Silverstone)
3) Choose layout (will show maps) (Stowe, Int'l, etc.)
4) Select track settings (time/weather)
-------------------------------
And include more cars used in the past to replace some of the model copies (Not everyone wants 29 R32 skylines and miatas)
Ex: Opel Tigra Ice Race Car, Venturi Atlantique 400GT, Toyota GT-One Road Car, Ford GT90, etc.
-------------------------------
I feel like the combination of elements from the earlier games minus some modern ones will really tie Gran Turismo 7 together and bring in more fans of the series that enjoyed the style of the other games.
(Of course while staying within hardware limitations yet using as much of the system for performance sake)

 

[Farushi]

On top of that, door panels and opening bonnets on cars will be highly unlikely across all cars unless they are re-scanned under the bonnet (which will be time consuming), as those WRC cars are one offs. I'm pretty sure those cars are the only ones to support that level of damage. Other premium cars are less so.

I'm pretty sure that they scanned and modelled all those parts for every premium, including the engines. Polyphony has said several times that the premiums are future proofed, and they were actually the first to state the (now standard) 6 months per car timeframe.

Why are the WRC cars the only ones with that kind of damage? No idea, but probably just another one of PD's weird design decisions, because it's pretty clear that the models we have in the game are not full thing.

Just look at some of the things from before GT5 release:

Toyota FT86 engine:

youtu.be/8QZacNDd6vI?t=30s

---

SLS doors:

youtu.be/SC4a9Ml3K40?t=1m39s

---

Laser scanning the Audi R8 with it's doors open:

 

[KilzoneStrife]

So, based on what Kaz has said recently, there will be better damage in GT7. From what I gather, car manufacturers will allow extensive damage to some parts of their cars and not others.
Is it true that damage can be extensive as long as it doesnt intrude into the cockpit/cabin in such a way that occupents would likely die in a crash where damage like that is to occur? Thats how I understand it.

I would honestly like damage in Gt7 to atleast be a "next gen" version of damage in Forza 2. Bonnets crumpling up etc. I actually dont remember damage being better in any other Forza since then so Im hoping we get similar, but better. (parts falling of roadcars etc)

 

[MrYasser]

I don't have high expectations for the visual damage in GT7 and I kinda believe the "myth"

Forza 5 damage


Driveclub damage

 

[05XR8]

I see first damage being scrapes. Second damage will be doors dented in showing some structure and crumpled bumpers rubbing on tyres to make smoke. Third damage will be bumpers hanging, doors swing open and may flap around and possible headlights gone and tailights gone. Fourth damage will be missing body panels.

I believe PD will still have cars driveable but with limp mode for engine/dribetrain damage. I'm not certain of wheel damage like GT5. I can't see PD having wheels fall pff as I think they want people to pit to fix damage rather than restart or DNF.

 

[MishaStarjk]

Damage doesn't really make or break the game for me.

[...]

GT can still be a great game without damages, but... Damage does really make or break a race IRL, so I do want them in GT. Makes more sense to me.

 

[Huks]

I'm pretty sure that they scanned and modelled all those parts for every premium, including the engines. Polyphony has said several times that the premiums are future proofed, and they were actually the first to state the (now standard) 6 months per car timeframe.

There's also this little-known Staple Design article from 2008 that shows PD scanning the engine bay and boot of a Maserati Spyder (I think?). The car isn't in the game though.

 

[Johnnypenso]

So, based on what Kaz has said recently, there will be better damage in GT7. From what I gather, car manufacturers will allow extensive damage to some parts of their cars and not others.
Is it true that damage can be extensive as long as it doesnt intrude into the cockpit/cabin in such a way that occupents would likely die in a crash where damage like that is to occur? Thats how I understand it.

I would honestly like damage in Gt7 to atleast be a "next gen" version of damage in Forza 2. Bonnets crumpling up etc. I actually dont remember damage being better in any other Forza since then so Im hoping we get similar, but better. (parts falling of roadcars etc)

In a video interview, Stefano Casillo of Assetto Corsa called damage restrictions in video games an "urban myth" and said that AC had been given no damage restrictions from any manufacturer outside of showing injuries to the driver. Their car list is quite limited compared to GT, but it does include manufacturers like Ferrari, Lotus, Mercedes, BMW and McLaren.

There's also this little-known Staple Design article from 2008 that shows PD scanning the engine bay and boot of a Maserati Spyder (I think?). The car isn't in the game though.

I'd call that photography, not scanning.

 

[Tokyoracer247]

GT can still be a great game without damages, but... Damage does really make or break a race IRL, so I do want them in GT. Makes more sense to me.

What I mean is that the quality of the visual damage doesn't sway my opinion of the game, while the option of having mechanical damage when you want is a good choice. I would like it to be more in depth, but making games is gradual, so it's just one-step-at-a-time right now.