Death Of The G25 Power Shift

[deadlyz33]

As we all know a realistic and true-to-life aspect of the game has been removed for balancing reasons. I find this appalling.

The fact of the matter is now having the clutch engaged is a disadvantage, due to the greater risk of mis-shift, as well as the fraction of seconds you go without having the throttle 100% (Think controller, throttle constantly 100% so no split seconds off throttle while you change gears. As soon as your gear is changed and throttle is no longer restricted it is back at 100% immediately). I think now what was once an advantage for having clutch enabled is now is disadvantage to the same degree, but punishing you for your extra effort.

Does anyone else feel frustrated that PD reduced the level of fun in this game by at least by a miniscule amount?

I find this hurts the most when drifting.

The part that really bothers me is that there is a much better way to level the playing field than adding a completely unrealistic punishment for having your foot even touching the gas, making you to mis-shift. In real life this is just not the case.

The way they could have made it fair for everyone is if instead of having you mis-shift if your touching the throttle they could have simply disabled the throttle while shifting. That would have made it so you wouldn't be punished for something that is perfectly fine in real life. That would have also completely removed the miniscule advantage the clutch gives you, while not adding more difficulty to the clutch.

Another way (The much better, and realistic way IMO) Would be to implement a clutch button for controller users as an option. This way if people want the added simulation feel of a clutch, and the small advantage for doing more work, there would be the option there. I figure they could have made L3 (or whatever button you wanted) to be the clutch. That is what we expect and deserve out of this game. Realism. Not blatant disregard for bringing you a realistic, and untampered-with driving simulation.

Powershifting is true-to-life. When damage is implemented power-shifting could cost you clutch damage, while still giving you the option to push your car extra, like say at the very end of a race.

Discuss.

 

[Blackbird.]

So wait... the clutch is still in the game but if you have the clutch still in and you press the throttle it counts as a mis-shift?

 

[deadlyz33]

So wait... the clutch is still in the game but if you have the clutch still in and you press the throttle it counts as a mis-shift?

Correct. If you are so much as TOUCHING the throttle while shifting into gear (001% throttle) You will invoke a mis-shift.

 

[Blackbird.]

I see no logic in that... since I was considering buying a PS3 just to play this game even the tiniest bull**** thing like that might make me not. Since i'm going to be buying an entire gaming system to play GT5.. or not.

 

[deadlyz33]

I see no logic in that... since I was considering buying a PS3 just to play this game even the tiniest bull**** thing like that might make me not. Since i'm going to be buying an entire gaming system to play GT5.. or not.

I think it was a quick-fix on PD's part to silence the "waaah, G25 is like cheating waaah" people.

It is a slap in the face to clutch users and g25 owners.

I have faith that PD will tweak it further, allowing power-shifting while not giving anyone unfair advantages. I have started this thread to make sure of that, and so that PD will hear that it is NOT ok to their fans.

 

[Blackbird.]

I think it was a quick-fix on PD's part to silence the "waaah, G25 is like cheating waaah" people.

It is a slap in the face to clutch users and g25 owners.

I have faith that PD will tweak it further, allowing power-shifting while not giving anyone unfair advantages. I have started this thread to make sure of that, and so that PD will hear that it is NOT ok to their fans.

If the people that whine about the difference in times between an old DFP and the G25 those are probably the people that are diehard GT people and probably should have a G25 if they care that much about racing games.

 

[Cold Fussion]

more annoying is the mis shifting into 2nd if the wheels are spinning in first.

 

[ej815]

so does that mean no more heel toe? i get my g25 2morrow!!

 

[deadlyz33]

so does that mean no more heel toe? i get my g25 2morrow!!

Unfortunately since shifting at the wrong RPM does not effect the balance of a car while cornering in GT5p heel-toe is completely useless. You can still do it but it is harder now than it was before. That is something else I hope greatly that PD will apply. Not using heel-toe shifting while racing in real life would really hurt your clutch AND car balance if cornering. I hope these aspects will be addressed, as heel-toe is fun and rewarding to get right. ( I do it practically daily in my 350z )

 

[Jay]

so does that mean no more heel toe? i get my g25 2morrow!!

Heel toe does still work, upshifting is the problem.

Unfortunately since shifting at the wrong RPM does not effect the balance of a car while cornering in GT5p heel-toe is completely useless.

Well it does unbalance cars in my experience but only when ABS is off, when ABS is on the rough downshifting makes no difference (prior to August update, havent tested since)

 

[Hyper-Dan]

I am getting used to it now, but I really do miss flat shifting, I think it is possibile to still be on the throttle a little bit, and shift qiucker than using a controller or the paddles. But it is very annoying when you miss shift, and like someone else already mentioned, If you are spinning the wheels and try and change up.

 

[alexpez]

Id love to see flat shifting brought back, but then id need to see clutch wear and engine damage instituted.

pez

 

[Lion-Face]

Powershifting is true-to-life. When damage is implemented power-shifting could cost you clutch damage, while still giving you the option to push your car extra, like say at the very end of a race.

Discuss.

Thats the problem there. Sure its true to life, but in the real world, you have damage. In GT5P before the update, there was no reason NOT to power-shift. There was no consequence whatsoever....and thats not realistic. Seeing as theres no damage, G25 owners had an advantage, and now that advantage has been balanced.

Now if/when they implement damage, as long as the damage isnt just cosmetic and you can blow parts of the car out, then theres no reason for it not to come back. Hence if someone wants to damage/risk blowing out their clutch and ending their race...then they can power-shift all they want. I'm a G25 owner, and i dont race Gran Turismo without it...ever...and the loss of power-shifting doesnt bother me. Probably because i rarely used it because i felt it was unrealistic to do so without the risk of damaging my car.

 

[Jay]

like someone else already mentioned, If you are spinning the wheels and try and change up.

Oh yeah that is awful, especially for drifting, even when you lift the throttle if the wheels are spinning a fair bit it doesn't like it

 

[deadlyz33]

Thats the problem there. Sure its true to life, but in the real world, you have damage. In GT5P before the update, there was no reason NOT to power-shift. There was no consequence whatsoever....and thats not realistic. Seeing as theres no damage, G25 owners had an advantage, and now that advantage has been balanced.

Now if/when they implement damage, as long as the damage isnt just cosmetic and you can blow parts of the car out, then theres no reason for it not to come back. Hence if someone wants to damage/risk blowing out their clutch and ending their race...then they can power-shift all they want. I'm a G25 owner, and i dont race Gran Turismo without it...ever...and the loss of power-shifting doesnt bother me. Probably because i rarely used it because i felt it was unrealistic to do so without the risk of damaging my car.

You are right, but also consider the other two ways I spoke about which would have made it fair to non-g25 owners. Theres got to be a better way than just turning it off. My concern is even after damage is applied clutch wear won't and we will never see power shifting again. Thats what this thread is trying to avoid. I want to raise awareness about the importance of this issue. You are right, it is unfair to flat shift when not everyone can do it. I hope in the full tuning menu you can purchase a flat-shift unit. In real life they have little programmers that automatically cut throttle when you hit the clutch so you can shift with the throttle floored. It will go back to 100% throttle when clutch is released. Many race cars use this technology in some form or another.

Instead of PD penalizing you with a miss-shift if you are touching the throttle, they could have replicated a flat-shift box and simply cut the throttle while clutch is engaged. Its so simple yet makes a big difference. You think people lift up their foot when shifting with paddles?! Unfair advantage IMO! Now using the clutch, which is just another thing to do while trying to move up the positions, is actually a disadvantage, forcing you to lift off the throttle to shift when no one else does such a thing!

 

[Jay]

they could have replicated a flat-shift box and simply cut the throttle while clutch is engaged.

No thanks, unless it was optional. How will GT5P distinguish when I want to change gears or just clutch kick?

 

[deadlyz33]

No thanks, unless it was optional. How will GT5P distinguish when I want to change gears or just clutch kick?

Didn't think of that, lol. It would have to be optional in that case. ORRR Pd could make it so clutch doesnt cut throttle, but when you actually shift gears the throttle is then automatically cut. As not to interfere with tapping the clutch every now and then.

 

[chrisr1984]

to be honest mate, you dont really need to worry about it that much as the 'powershift' as you call it is still in the game and you have to click the triangle button (on the g25 shift unit) to engage manual clutch, so it should start off i.e not needing to use the clutch..

also i think the best way to resolve this is make it so that you have to be lifting off the throttle at least 50% to change instead of 100%.. because in the road cars changing gear flat out is not good.. and you will find that its only cars with a sequential gearbox where this is done.

and i have noticed that in the F40 you can change gear quicker using manual clutch.. well i noticed it did anyway.

i do agree on the fact that you have to lift off 100% to enable a smooth gear change but if you hate it that much then just dont use it.. (just pretend lol)

i did a time yesterday int he GTi and it was 0.2 seconds faster using the manual clutch .. from 1:25:240 to 1:25:000 so it really doesnt make that much a difference.

just take your time with the changes.. you will get used to it.

p.s. i read only your thread.

 

[deadlyz33]

to be honest mate, you dont really need to worry about it that much as the 'powershift' as you call it is still in the game and you have to click the triangle button (on the g25 shift unit) to engage manual clutch, so it should start off i.e not needing to use the clutch..

also i think the best way to resolve this is make it so that you have to be lifting off the throttle at least 50% to change instead of 100%.. because in the road cars changing gear flat out is not good.. and you will find that its only cars with a sequential gearbox where this is done.

and i have noticed that in the F40 you can change gear quicker using manual clutch.. well i noticed it did anyway.

i do agree on the fact that you have to lift off 100% to enable a smooth gear change but if you hate it that much then just dont use it.. (just pretend lol)

i did a time yesterday int he GTi and it was 0.2 seconds faster using the manual clutch .. from 1:25:240 to 1:25:000 so it really doesnt make that much a difference.

just take your time with the changes.. you will get used to it.

p.s. i read only your thread.

Cars with sequential gearboxes certainly aren't the only ones doing it. When you have a triple carbon plate clutch for instance you could give two ****s. lol Or if you can afford new clutch plates (factory support?) Also like I mentioned, there are programs in real life which can disable throttle while you hit the clutch so that you don't have to lift to shift. A lot of race cars use this, even without sequential (sequential sometimes uses the same technology)

 

[Jay]

Also like I mentioned, there are programs in real life which can disable throttle while you hit the clutch so that you don't have to lift to shift. A lot of race cars use this, even without sequential (sequential sometimes uses the same technology)

A lot of sequential boxes has a switch on the shifter it self that you press as you shift which cuts ignition during that short time.

 

[Lion-Face]

i did a time yesterday int he GTi and it was 0.2 seconds faster using the manual clutch .. from 1:25:240 to 1:25:000 so it really doesnt make that much a difference.

.2 seconds faster in a time trail? over one lap? I know that you could have taken a corner faster or gotten a better drive out of a couple to gain that .2 second advantage...but for examples sake, lets say the laps were identical in everyway apart from the .2 seconds you gained from using a manual clutch...
you would, after 5 laps be 1 second faster, over 10laps 2 seconds faster..over 50 laps, 10seconds faster....so it really doesnt make much of a differnce? i think so.

You are right, but also consider the other two ways I spoke about which would have made it fair to non-g25 owners. Theres got to be a better way than just turning it off. My concern is even after damage is applied clutch wear won't and we will never see power shifting again. Thats what this thread is trying to avoid. I want to raise awareness about the importance of this issue. You are right, it is unfair to flat shift when not everyone can do it. I hope in the full tuning menu you can purchase a flat-shift unit. In real life they have little programmers that automatically cut throttle when you hit the clutch so you can shift with the throttle floored. It will go back to 100% throttle when clutch is released. Many race cars use this technology in some form or another.

Yes i'm with you on that. As long as they bring it back when its appropriate to i wouldn't have a problem, i hope they do. I agree with your concern in that now that its gone, will we see it again? i certainly hope so. If not, making it an optional part, or optional per game mode...say for drift modes as that seems to be the biggest loser of all the modes when powershifting went. Or, as you said, have it assignable to normal controller buttons would also be a good solution. I would agree with you on that one that it would have been better for them to assign it to a button so that no matter the controller, it can be implemented by the end user on their preffered control, than to remove it entirely.

 

[Type_R_]

I want this game to be 1on1 to real life with G25.If something has to be change,then adjust pad.

 

[craste]

I think you should be able to flat shift (but over time you damage your car and have clutch slip etc) and the best way to make this fair when racing is that when we have private lobys etc you can enter races where everybody in that race is using the same wheel - like the G25 user race and the DFP user races - that way the racers will be on a level playing field and they can all damage their clutches together.

 

[chrisr1984]

.2 seconds faster in a time trail? over one lap? I know that you could have taken a corner faster or gotten a better drive out of a couple to gain that .2 second advantage...but for examples sake, lets say the laps were identical in everyway apart from the .2 seconds you gained from using a manual clutch...
you would, after 5 laps be 1 second faster, over 10laps 2 seconds faster..over 50 laps, 10seconds faster....so it really doesnt make much of a differnce? i think so.

yea you would be right, i tried a couple of times and my best was about 1:25:2 and i couldnt get better, did 1 lap and managed the 1:25:000

but i dont think that you would be so consistant to get the exact same time on every lap, im a fairly good consistant driver and i feel that to get the exact same time every lap would be pretty damn hard.

so in your words...

"you would, after 5 laps be 1 second faster, over 10laps 2 seconds faster..over 50 laps, 10seconds faster....so it really doesnt make much of a differnce? i think so. "

im not really sure you mean on a race or on time trial, as on time trial you wouldnt be getting 1 sec a lap faster at all because it starts again each lap.. and if it was a race you would never get the same lap times unless you was first or there was a big enough gap infront of you.

 

[BreakerOhio]

I think the G25 changes are giving you the difficulty that you seek if you went as far as purchasing and using the G25. It's like playing that Ferrari Arcade machine with the shifter and clutch. If you go into that mode, be prepared to suffer the simulation aspect of it.

With that, the clutch is an option for gamers. I think the powershift penalty is reasonable and understandable from the same way the Ferrari Simulator Arcade machine demands you to prepare for simulation mode when you want to use the clutch and shifter.

From a manufacturer standpoint, they would welcome and encourage this to be implemented so that gamers do not form the bad shifting habits from video games and take that bad habit into real life cars.

 

[Wolfe]

The problem was never that the wheel users had an "unfair advantage." It was that G25 users were the only ones enlightened and spared from Gran Turismo's embarrassingly clunky shifting.

The only solution to this problem (and the one that should have been bleeding obvious) is for PD to return G25 shifting to the way it was and finally, finally get rid of the awful "granny shifting" that has plagued the series for years. There isn't even any clutch wear in the game -- why does it matter that even the littlest amount of clutch slip should be 100% avoided? Surely they've driven an S2000 and know it doesn't take a second and a half to shift gears in that car?

 

[MustangSVT]

so does that mean no more heel toe? i get my g25 2morrow!!

Majority of racing games (even ones that support clutch) does throttle blip for you on downshift automatically.

In LFS for example, I think you must have it off if you use clutch pedal. LFS is the only one I know of though that seems to do mis-shifts and blip properly.

 

[deadlyz33]

The problem was never that the wheel users had an "unfair advantage." It was that G25 users were the only ones enlightened and spared from Gran Turismo's embarrassingly clunky shifting.

The only solution to this problem (and the one that should have been bleeding obvious) is for PD to return G25 shifting to the way it was and finally, finally get rid of the awful "granny shifting" that has plagued the series for years. There isn't even any clutch wear in the game -- why does it matter that even the littlest amount of clutch slip should be 100% avoided? Surely they've driven an S2000 and know it doesn't take a second and a half to shift gears in that car?

Yes it does? maybe around a second or so? Same with my 350z. I have a stock flywheel and the sucker is heavy, making you shift a bit slower. You have to wait for your RPM's to drop in real life just like in the game. Not sure if their "shift times" would be dead accurate because that would be hard to find out for every car. Does every car in the game take forever to shift? No, just the cheaper ones with stock clutch. I think it was the G37 tuned that shifted really quick. Try it out, It seems like that car was fitted with an aftermarket flywheel.

They are just being true to life, when you have the full game you will be able to buy a lighter flywheel for your S2K.

 

[BLACK86]

Well it does unbalance cars in my experience but only when ABS is off, when ABS is on the rough downshifting makes no difference (prior to August update, havent tested since)

hmmmm haven't tried with the new update but before it definitely unbalanced the cars in corners, even coming down the long fuji straight braking in a straight line and downshifting with no heel and toe made me spin out a few times, even with the mines 4wd skyline.

 

[Wolfe]

You have to wait for your RPM's to drop in real life just like in the game.

In real life you have the option of letting the clutch out anyway, "forcing" the engine down to the RPM for the next gear and immediately moving on. Should this not even be an option in the game?

I drive a kinda-sporty '80s economy car with a stock flywheel, and even though I wait for the RPM to match the next gear for the sake of clutch longevity when driving all-out, I still don't have to wait as long to shift as the S2000 does in GT4. If your 350Z really is the same way, you have my pity, though I don't remember it acting like that when I test drove one.

Maybe things aren't as bad in GT5. I don't really know, I only had a chance to try a few cars. What I do know is that GT4's flywheel/shifting simulation ruined all of the high-RPM screamers, and it would be worthless to include them in GT5 if the game is going to have the same problem.