Deciding Cadillac's Future: (Post #63) XTS Replaces STS/DTS, ATS Announced

[YSSMAN]

This is very interesting news indeed...

General Motors is faced with several major decisions about the future of its Cadillac brand, according to a new report. Over the next three months, executives will have to decide which models to move forward with as it enters the second phase of its revival.

According to trade publication Automotive News, the following projects are under consideration, and will be either set into motion or scrapped in over the next few months:

* A Cadillac CTS Coupe and CTS wagon, positioning the model line squarely against the BMW 3-Series. GM Vice Chairman Bob Lutz says the automaker has already built clay models of these cars.

* An ultra-luxury sedan or coupe inspired by the Cadillac Sixteen concept or an exotic sports car based on the 2002 Cien concept (pictured). Lutz says the luxury Sixteen would produce higher sales, but the Lamborghini-like Cien would cost less to make. Such a vehicle would be priced at more than $150,000, the report said.

* An entry-level model priced under $30,000. Cadillac General Manager Jim Taylor is reluctant, but Bob Lutz favors the idea. Either way, it won't be Europe's BLS sedan.

* Lastly, the company must decide whether to discontinue the front-wheel-drive DTS. Bob Lutz favors phasing out the model and focusing on the rear-drive STS. Taylor said GM might keep the DTS nameplate, but build the next-generation model on GM's Zeta platform.

- On the CTS: Generally speaking, I see the additional models as a no-brainer personally. The idea of a Coupe is a good one, one in which I could see a lot of possibility with. I doubt many people expected the Cobalt and G6 coupes to sell as well as they do, and I'm certain that much of the same success could be pushed off on the next CTS. I believe the current shape lends itself to be fairly attractive as a coupe, and in CTS-V trim would certainly look stunning no-less. Better yet, get the 2009 CTS as a coupe with the new 2.9L diesel and shoot the breeze with the 2009 Audi A5 3.0 TDI. Sweet... The wagon idea on the whole is a good one, but they can't go too crazy with it, and certainly they must keep the production numbers realistic for the American market, and thereby hope for the best in Europe. The wagon seems like a reasonable option, but as for having a market in America, that is hard to say specifically. Outside of Volvos, Audis, and Volkswagens I rarely ever see wagons, especially BMW and Mercedes versions. But if there is a market, there is no reason why Cadillac shouldn't go after it.

I like the idea, now they just need to show one in production-spec​

- On the "Ultra" Cars: Its hard to say whether or not this is the best idea for Cadillac to persue at the moment. I think that if Cadillac was satisfied in building a low-volume ultra-luxury car or supercar, they could be moderately successful in doing so. However, most people aren't willing to pay too much money for a Cadillac... Or at least a dressed-up Corvette with less power than the $30K cheaper Z06. A true Cien would make for an interesting XLR replacement, and indeed I could see an adaptation of the Y-Body to have the MR setup, possibly with a V12. But the development of the car seems like it would take far too long, and probably cost GM far too much. With the ULS (Sixteen), it would seem to make more sense to build a car that can knock-gloves with the S-Class and the LS460h, and place Cadillac as the unquestionable leader in luxury when it comes to American manufactures. To be honest, I'd be more in it for the V12 development for anything else, heck maybe even a V16, just to show the world what we can do.

Remember the Cien?

Remember the Sixteen?​

- On the Entry-Level Cadillac: I'm going to have to say no on this one, or at least a no until Cadillac can show off a convincing concept. Given that Cadillac is still a well-respected name by most Americans, I'd hate to see some trashy new Cimarron-esque model floating around at GM again. Could it be done? Probably. But the BLS isn't the answer, and I'm happy that GM has realized that. A good "cheap" Cadillac would have to start life either on the Kappa or Zeta platform, as RWD performance would be required to take on the 1-series. I would probably play with the idea of a Kappa-based model, preferably a small coupe, maybe seating four or five, possibly using the Volvo C30 as a good benchmark overall for what I'd be looking for. Zeta would just be too big, particularly with the CTS around.

May God save us from this car once again...​

- On the Future of the DTS: Kill it now. I personally find it embarrassing that the DTS is still considered to be a "flagship" model at Cadillac despite the fact that it would be slaughtered against the modern S-Class and 7-series. GM is going to need to realize that although the DTS was indeed relevant back in the '90s against the Germans, today it just won't cut it. I'm all for the use of the new "expandable" Zeta platform for a true large-car replacement. The L-Body just isn't what it used to be, although, I think it worked out great as the Buick Lucerne. However they do raise an interesting point with the STS... There is a long-wheelbase model on-sale in China, and there really isn't any reason why it couldn't be done here. But my big problem is that if the Sigma I chassis was stretched pretty far with the current STS, how will Sigma II fare when the STS update comes in a few years from now? I guess it will be the Zeta chassis then, although, it may need a thorough reworking by Cadillac to be up to the standards that the Germans have set thus far.

Kill me now!​

 

[Jim Prower]

Remember the Cien? Do I ever! Despite its slow GT4 upshifts, it's a morbidly fast car, and it looks kickass with a big silver GT wing.

I feeel sorry for my Mopar boys.

 

[1X83Z]

I got the Cien in GT4 and used it in every single race in which it was qualified for. I think it single-handedly took me from 20% to 40%.

If they build it exactly like that it might have a chance at tearing apart the Diablo for most aggressive looking car ever.

But probably not.

 

[Tornado]

With the ULS (Sixteen), it would seem to make more sense to build a car that can knock-gloves with the S-Class and the LS460h

The problem is that the current (and undoubtably the next) STS already does that very thing.

But the BLS isn't the answer, and I'm happy that GM has realized that.

Could I ask why? Quality wise it is the best car Cadillac (and nearly the brand as a whole) makes. And in driving dynamics it isn't actually that bad. If Cadillac wants to go after BMW as bad as they say they do, they have to raise the quality up before tackling the dynamics part, which was something the current STS forgot to do to an extent.

A good "cheap" Cadillac would have to start life either on the Kappa or Zeta platform, as RWD performance would be required to take on the 1-series.

If Cadillac goes downmarket, they won't go after the 1-series for two reasons:

1. RWD cars of that size are essentially useless.
2. The 1-series isn't very good.

There are also problems in the patform. The Kappa is too small in its normal config, and the Zeta isn't refined enough and is too big (at least for a 1-series sized car).

Kill it now. I personally find it embarrassing that the DTS is still considered to be a "flagship" model at Cadillac despite the fact that it would be slaughtered against the modern S-Class and 7-series.

Completely disagree. It costs Cadillac $0.09 per car to build each one. All Cadillac needs to do is reposition the DTS as the old people's car instead of the flagship and that problem solves itself. Simply put, there is NO ROOM for a RWD DeVille in Cadillac's current line-up, and I can't see them shaking things up to much.
And either way, the DeVille doesn't compete with the 7-Series or S-Class. It competes with the Avalon and Town Car. Bring the DeVille's quality up to the level of the current Toyota Avalon and reposition it as the second-in-command.

 

[JCE]

Kill the DTS? Yes, only if they don't fill that gap with a RWD saloon car. I think Cadillac should dump the rubbish XLR and make the Cien instead. And the Sixteen would be an awsome alternative to the Phaeton. (I'd still drive the Phaeton) An entry level Cadillac? I call that a CTS. If they are talking about a small saloon car or hatchback that would be interesting. But having said all that I still prefer anything German over anything Cadillac. And I always will.

 

[YSSMAN]

The problem is that the current (and undoubtably the next) STS already does that very thing.

Sort of. Technically the STS is meant to be the E-Class and GS-class competitor. Does that mean that it shapes up on every level? Not quite, and I'd never try to fake that. It does a good job doing what it does, and with the updates that are coming for 2008 (check the new interior and exterior), its sure to jump a few pegs forward in the luxury segment.

Could I ask why? Quality wise it is the best car Cadillac (and nearly the brand as a whole) makes. And in driving dynamics it isn't actually that bad. If Cadillac wants to go after BMW as bad as they say they do, they have to raise the quality up before tackling the dynamics part, which was something the current STS forgot to do to an extent.

You do realize that the BLS is pretty much a redressed Saab 9-3, correct? If I'm not mistaken, you and M5Power have been two of the most critical people I know of Saab itself. So why would having a Saab turn Cadillac that costs the same as a "true" Cadillac (ie CTS) be worth anything in America?

...On the issue of quality, I think you're neglecting the fact that the new Caddy models debut this year. The all-new CTS hits the streets this fall, the STS and SRX get a healthy update, and well, the DTS does what it does best... Stays the same.

If Cadillac goes downmarket, they won't go after the 1-series for two reasons:

1. RWD cars of that size are essentially useless.
2. The 1-series isn't very good.

There are also problems in the patform. The Kappa is too small in its normal config, and the Zeta isn't refined enough and is too big (at least for a 1-series sized car).

Its a suggestion, and it is one that they are considering. The problems come mostly from the fact that Pontiac has had plans of the table to do a 1-series fighter with the G5 and G6 in the not too distant future, so it wouldn't make much sense to have Cadillac get in the same boat. But, I'm just happy to hear that the ideas are floating around. Hell, Cadillac may surprise us and do a smaller version of the Sigma II chassis, or maybe they'll up-size the Kappa platform. Its hard to say. I doubt GM would want to design something entirely new.

Completely disagree. It costs Cadillac $0.09 per car to build each one. All Cadillac needs to do is reposition the DTS as the old people's car instead of the flagship and that problem solves itself. Simply put, there is NO ROOM for a RWD DeVille in Cadillac's current line-up, and I can't see them shaking things up to much.
And either way, the DeVille doesn't compete with the 7-Series or S-Class. It competes with the Avalon and Town Car. Bring the DeVille's quality up to the level of the current Toyota Avalon and reposition it as the second-in-command.

Here is the problem. The Lucerne is a lot better than the DTS, and seems like a far more rational purchase given that you are getting essentially the same car for $15K less. So you may lose a few inches in size, and certainly you would do without the "exclusivity" of the Cadillac badge, but I'd even dare to say that the Lucerne (esp in CXS form) looks stunning, far better than the DTS. Technically speaking, the Buick is the Avalon and Town Car competitor, the DTS is pretty much hung out to dry, drawing in the few senior citizens looking to buy a Cadillac because they can, and then they strap the cloth top on the roof. No one in their right mind would drop $46,710 MSRP on a DTS Luxury II, and I see no reason in having it in the Cadillac lineup other than "we've always had a DeVille... No reason not to!"

I'd settle for bringing the STS Long-Wheelbase to America, re-skinning it slightly, and calling it a DeVille. That would be just fine, and I'm sure they would move more at the lower price. But hey, I may just be a crazy GM guy. God forbid some of us have some level of common sense. It kinda took over for a while, and certainly has a solid grip on the company, and with Cadillac at the lead of the company, there is no room for stupid behavior.

 

[1X83Z]

The problem is that the current (and undoubtably the next) STS already does that very thing.

You think the STS is an S-class competitor? Lord. Let's add this to the Equinox/Optima debate.

 

[harrytuttle]

Sort of. Technically the STS is meant to be the E-Class and GS-class competitor. Does that mean that it shapes up on every level? Not quite, and I'd never try to fake that. It does a good job doing what it does, and with the updates that are coming for 2008 (check the new interior and exterior), its sure to jump a few pegs forward in the luxury segment.

I, too, see the STS as aimed at the S-Class et. al., but it still has many revisions to go. My impression of the market (which, with the few people I have spoken to, is very unscientific) is that STS buyers had considered an S-Class and LS430/460, but not vice-versa. The Sixteen, on the other hand, would definitely leapfrog the S-Class and head right into the Maybach/Rolls Royce fray...and still miss, if Cadillac's current reputation is anything to go by.

You do realize that the BLS is pretty much a redressed Saab 9-3, correct? If I'm not mistaken, you and M5Power have been two of the most critical people I know of Saab itself. So why would having a Saab turn Cadillac that costs the same as a "true" Cadillac (ie CTS) be worth anything in America?

I think the BLS in the USDM would be a big mistake. Cadillac is looking to move upmarket, and the BLS is a distinct down-market move. Now that Cadillac has all but removed front-wheel-drive from their lineup, it would be an entire weekend's worth of omelettes on their face if the BLS went stateside within the next 5 years.

And the Cien? Don't get me started.... 👍 👍

 

[Philly]

Those "ultra" cars seem like a neat idea, but I'm having mixed feelings about them. On the upside, it would be cool to have a decent high class luxury limo (same purpose as the S and 7), but at a slightly lower level, maybe something VW can produce too so they can duke it out. I think they may be able to find quite a few sales from the wanna-be rich if such a car was very well done. Yet, I think that would require a lot more time and effort than GM is willing to put forth, and the result would be pretty much rubbish. We're not talking Lucerne or DTS here, but something more genuine.

As for a supercar, I don't know. I saw the Cien as mostly a design excercise previewing Caddy's new styling direction, and it seems a bit late to revive that car. Although, it could be that mid-engined Corvette that we discussed in another thread. I do not doubt GM's ability to build a hard-core supercar, and I think that given a few years they could put forth an amazing car. But then again, we saw what happened to the ME 4-12. I'm not thinking that a supercar from Cadillac is a very large possibility.

 

[Tornado]

You think the STS is an S-class competitor? Lord. Let's add this to the Equinox/Optima debate.

Before you turn into the typical smart-ass, how about you look at the sizes of the cars.
I believe you were the one that had been complaining that the CTS was too large to compete with the 3-series, so why the double standard?

 

[1X83Z]

Before you turn into the typical smart-ass, how about you look at the sizes of the cars.
I believe you were the one that had been complaining that the CTS was too large to compete with the 3-series, so why the double standard?

I mean. Have you been in an S-class?

I'm sorry but that ain't no S-class. Honestly I had my first ride in an STS only a month ago and I was so taken aback by the lackluster quality of materials that I almost threw up. What the hell is with the font they use on the radio? And why do they have to throw the cheapest plastic in the single most visible place?

The Uplander and the Lincoln Town Car are probably about the same length, but we don't compare them. That's what you're doing here.

The slot between the DVD and the CD: two inches that cost GM two cents

 

[YSSMAN]

Meet the new STS interior. It should move things up a bit.

 

[Frizbe]

What would they call the Cien now?
would it be "Cien Ocho" (assuming 2010 release)?

 

[1X83Z]

Meet the new STS interior. It should move things up a bit.

Admittedly significantly better (the Neon's interior would've been significantly better) but still leagues behind the S-class. They're still using the three-dollar fake chrome plastic around the gear lever, I see.

 

[Tornado]

I mean. Have you been in an S-class?

Yes (a 1996). And I understand your point. But the STS is far closer to an S-Class competitor than anything else GM has produced since the 1940. And it is sure as hell closer than the DeVille.

The Uplander and the Lincoln Town Car are probably about the same length, but we don't compare them. That's what you're doing here.

Niether does the DTS compete with the S-Class. But the STS at least has a theoretical chance of competing with it based on everything but quality, no matter how much it may be slaughtered. So, again (and this is to YSSMAN as well), the DeVille should be positioned to go after old people after a price slash and quality review, and the STS should be used to go after the S-Class.
If Cadillac suddenly comes out with a new model priced at near $100,000, it will probably go over as well as the XLR-v did. If they pump up the STS, it will go over much better.
Similarly, as harry said, if Cadillac made a "Super Flagship" it would go right after the poor-sales, ridiculous brand-loyalty Roller and Bentley market. I can't see Cadillac getting any more market share than Maybach has, if not less.

You do realize that the BLS is pretty much a redressed Saab 9-3, correct?

Yes.

If I'm not mistaken, you and M5Power have been two of the most critical people I know of Saab itself.

Yes. Of every Saab ever made except the current 9-3. That is how much I like the car.

So why would having a Saab turn Cadillac that costs the same as a "true" Cadillac (ie CTS) be worth anything in American?

Because the Saab 9-3 is, as of right now, one of the best cars GM makes in quality of intrior/ergonomics. The CTS is decidedly not (though this is based on the current CTS, not the next one), and pushing the BLS as a less-sporty more-luxury alternative wouldn't really harm CTS sales that much, because they would appeal to two different clientele.
As such, speaking of the BLS as a redux of the Cimmaron simply is not accurate, because the general concensus among Europe as I see it is that the BLS is a better car than the CTS if it wasn't front wheel drive.
Keep in mind that the only way I would see this as beneficiary is if it was done rather soon, and if GM pushes it as far off as, say, 5 year, it won't make a difference, as the CTS may fix its current problems.

 

[1X83Z]

Yes (a 1996). And I understand your point. But the STS is far closer to an S-Class competitor than anything else GM has produced since the 1940. And it is sure as hell closer than the DeVille.

If your point is 'GM's closest S-class competitor' then yes, of course the STS fits the bill. But I can't see too many people cross-shopping an STS and an S550. I wouldn't be too surprised if people looked at the STS and the E-class (hell, they should) but the S-class is a bit of a stretch.

By the way, despite my comments about the STS's interior, which I hate, I admire the car greatly. I wouldn't buy it, but I can't fault those who do. It's a very competent vehicle. My only two gripes are the interior, as I mentioned, and the heinous option packages, which require other packages, which can end up costing more than most of Hyundai's product line.

Yes. Of every Saab ever made except the current 9-3. That is how much I like the car.

Same. The 9-3 is a very competent car. Again I wouldn't buy one simply because I dislike the brand, but the vehicle is a very competitive one in that class - and I'm saying this knowing that it's five years old. Frankly the Aero wagon is so compelling that I'd consider purchasing one if not for the existence of the Audi A3.

 

[Tornado]

If your point is 'GM's closest S-class competitor' then yes, of course the STS fits the bill.

That was my point.

But I can't see too many people cross-shopping an STS and an S550.

Niether would I, but the only Cadillac I could see that happening with anyways is the XLR and maybe the CTS.

 

[YSSMAN]

Meh, its no big deal. It has been clear time and again that Cadillac isn't sure what they want to do with the brand, much less with GM deciding how they want to approach the segment. After Oldsmobile died, there has been a lot of confusion over how they want to do things. Cadillac is somehow supposed to take on all three of the German companies, plus Jaguar, Lexus (to some extent), and Infiniti. Buick was deemed the main Lexus competitor, but I have yet to see any fruits come of that outside of the rather-good Lucerne. Then there has been the recent plays made by GM to make Pontiac a "cheap BMW," Saturn as some kind of Honda/Acura fighter, and Chevy to do the rest of the dirty work against the Americans and Toyota.

...But none of that is really all too solid anymore...

The STS is undoubtedly the closest that Cadillac has come to the S-Class, but it is meant to be the 5-series competitor, most of us know that. The updates should help with all of their models, but I would ave to agree that until they get the full Sigma II swap going beneath the STS and the SRX, they aren't likely to be as competitive as they once were now that the foreigners have come out with their new models.

 

[1X83Z]

Niether would I, but the only Cadillac I could see that happening with anyways is the XLR and maybe the CTS.

I wish more people would look at the XLR as an SL alternative, but it's hard to convince people that Cadillac is a viable player in the field. Cadillac doesn't help themselves out by not advertising the vehicle - ever - and building up probably the smallest customer base in the history of time.

People who buy a C-class over a CTS are dip****s.

 

[YSSMAN]

...Someone give Vader a call, they're building him a Cadillac...

General Motors product boss Robert Lutz has confirmed plans to build a V12 sedan, likely based on the popular Cadillac Sixteen coupe car. The luxury sedan will compete with the Mercedes S-Class and Lexus LS, according to Lutz.

Mr. Lutz said in an interview while visiting England that development is underway by Holden in Australia for the new V12 powerplant that will be used in the range-topping model.

The new V12 is essentially two 60-degree 3.6-liter V6 engines mated to a common crankshaft, according to AutoWeek magazine. Like the 1000 hp V16 Sixteen concept, the V12 Caddy will feature direct injection, cylinder deactivation, and an advanced automatic gearbox to provide reasonable fuel economy and efficiency.

Holden has reportedly built early test mule prototypes on its rear-wheel-drive Zeta platform, which underpins the new Chevy Camaro and Pontiac G8. However, the chassis might only serve as a test bed for the engine.

The engine will have 7.2 liters of displacement with 600 horsepower and 540 pound-feet of torque. It's not known if GM plans to offer lesser versions of the sedan with V8 powerplants, as Mercedes does with its S-Class. In 2003, Lutz said he wanted to develop a Cadillac luxury sedan with three models: V8, a high-performance V8 and a V12.

Oh yeah, thats how we get things done. Wow, and to think there was a time in which I doubted Mr. Lutz. I'm game for the big V12, as it sounds like a riot when compared to the "lesser" units from Mercedes and BMW (ha ha ha, yeah...).

If they're really going to do it, more power to 'em. Lets hope they do it right...

 

[Dave A]

You do realise that when it said It's not known if GM plans to offer lesser versions of the sedan with V8 powerplants, as Mercedes does with its S-Class, he didn't mean that the S-Class is powered solely by lesser units, jsut that this V12 Cadillac will be targetting the V12 S-Classes ect, not the V8 S-Classes and it's unknown if they will build one to do so.

 

[YSSMAN]

I know what you mean, but I was personally referring to the "lesser" V12 units. But then I thought about it, and I realized that the 6.0L TT V12 from the SL600 is still awesome no matter what...

...And my guess is that they will do a V8 model just to make money. Chances are, Cadillac will use it to debut the "Ultra" V8 that will replace the Northstar program currently in use...

 

[Dave A]

They'll need to get the quality spot on as well as the engine, or like every other Cadillac when compared to a premium rival, it will fall short. All being well they will do it right, the more good cars in the world the better right.

 

[YSSMAN]

If the new CTS is a sign of whats to come, I wouldn't expect it to do too bad. Figure maybe Lexus LS levels of quality by comparison to an S-Class. Good enough, almost there, but certainly not an S-Class by any means.

Still, my only concern is the Zeta chassis. Given that it will be running an enlarged version of the same thing that sits beneath the Camaro, Commodore, et al. you do have to wonder if it will be capable enough to meet the standards of luxury at that level. I'd assume so, but of course, you can never be certain.

...Considering that this will probably be replacing the DTS, all I can be is happy. The L-Body needs to go, and this will be a huge step forward for Cadillac when everything goes through...

But it does make me wonder: If Cadillac is presumably ditching the L-Body, does that mean the same for Buick by the end of the decade? Will we finally see the Invicta/Statesman that we've been promised?

 

[m7ammed]

I'm not sure but over here Cadillac will need a couple of years until its revived properly , the problem with Cadillac is that they screwed up for so long the competitors got stronger (Audi ,BMW ,Lexus )

 

[McLaren]

Why bother making the Cien or Sixteen?

They're just going to end up giving it a price tag of a Lamborghini or Maybach without actually having the performance to mimic either.

Just look at the XLR-V. $100,000 for a roadster that can't even steal sells away from BMW or Mercedes. Hell, that overpriced V8 probably can't even steal a sell from Jaguar.

 

[JCE]

Solution(s) for Cadillac:

• Kill the XLR with a sawwed off shotgun blast to the face
• Build the Sixteen or much more desired Cien concept
• Graft two 6.0L LS2 engines together
• Add one small roots/screw supercharger (~5psi) just for the noise
• Sell it for $120k
• Watch me sell most of my duplicate organs to afford one
• Watch me kill myself drifting around a corner @150mph

Note: the last 2 are subjective and meant for humorous purposes only. The Cien would probaby sell well if the engine technology was there AND it handled well enough to actually compete with the likes of the SL65 AMG.

 

[McLaren]

There goes JCE again. Thinking like a Texan would.

I, though, don't think the XLR should be killed off (it's a good idea by Cadillac to sell a conv.), I just think they should drastically drop its price.

 

[Tornado]

• Build the Sixteen or much more desired Cien concept
• Graft two 6.0L LS2 engines together
• Add one small roots/screw supercharger (~5psi) just for the noise
• Sell it for $120k

If they build the Sixteen and do that, you should add:

• Watch it sit on dealer lots.

If they do it with the Cien, it would sell like mad.

The Cien would probaby sell well if the engine technology was there AND it handled well enough to actually compete with the likes of the SL65 AMG.

That wasn't the case with the XLR-v in relation to the SL55, so why would it be the case for the Cien?

 

[Danny]

If Cadillac tries to take on Mercedes' S-Class (or even Lexus, for that matter) then they are in serious danger of being outclassed.

Unless the quality improves quickly, they might not stand a chance...