Deciding Cadillac's Future: (Post #63) XTS Replaces STS/DTS, ATS Announced

[YSSMAN]

Why bother making the Cien or Sixteen?

They're just going to end up giving it a price tag of a Lamborghini or Maybach without actually having the performance to mimic either.

Just look at the XLR-V. $100,000 for a roadster that can't even steal sells away from BMW or Mercedes. Hell, that overpriced V8 probably can't even steal a sell from Jaguar.

...Well, they aren't building the Cien (yet). The Sixteen has been semi-greenlighted, but will only use a V12, not the full-size engine. Granted, the Cien may still be on the table, given that there have been discussions of a mid-engine variant of the Corvette, which would presumably be a Cadillac model. Light weight and the big V12 would certainly be a decent idea for Porsche 911 and Mercedes SL money...

As for the XLR-V, it was never intended to be a big-time seller, but they have moved enough of them to make GM happy. Most of the engine technology has gone into the STS-V anyway, and I certainly am in the camp in which the STS-V's version of the 4.4L S/C Northstar would be a better idea than the 25 BHP-short XLR-V. But when you really weren't expecting to sell more than 1000 a year, and people are buying them, complaints from average people aren't going to mean much.

Solution(s) for Cadillac:

* Kill the XLR with a sawwed off shotgun blast to the face
* Build the Sixteen or much more desired Cien concept
* Graft two 6.0L LS2 engines together
* Add one small roots/screw supercharger (~5psi) just for the noise
* Sell it for $120k
* Watch me sell most of my duplicate organs to afford one
* Watch me kill myself drifting around a corner @150mph


Note: the last 2 are subjective and meant for humorous purposes only. The Cien would probaby sell well if the engine technology was there AND it handled well enough to actually compete with the likes of the SL65 AMG.

1) The XLR is a good idea, they just need to fine-tune it. My guess is that they will keep building them. Sales have been good enough, and the press/public seems to have accepted the car well enough.
2) They are doing the Sixteen (as noted earlier), the Cien is still up in the air.
3) The V16 idea is pretty much dead, given that they are doing a V12 based on the LY7 V6. They could do a twin LS2 V16, but the origional concept used twin LS7s, and it was a completely functional design... But the V12 is it, for now...
4) Supercharger? Dunno. Could happen with the V12...
5) $120K is the price range they were considering for both cars, but a good guess puts the 'ULS' (thats what I'm calling it from now-on) in a start range probably in the $70K-ish range, north of $100K for the full-fledged V12 version.

I, though, don't think the XLR should be killed off (it's a good idea by Cadillac to sell a conv.), I just think they should drastically drop its price.

How much is drastically? The XLR starts at $78K, which isn't too bad considering that similarly-equipped models start at about $81K for the XK, about $82K for the 650ci, about $95K for the SL550... The only major competitor to undercut it is the SC430 at about $66K. But the SC430 sucks, so you get what you pay for...

The only change I would demand from Cadillac is more-power for the XLR, given than 320 BHP isn't quite enough anymore. Maybe a "S/C-lite" version would be an acceptable idea?

If they build the Sixteen and do that, you should add:

* Watch it sit on dealer lots.

If they do it with the Cien, it would sell like mad.

Certainly so. Given that the 'ULS' will likely replace the DTS at the top of the heap, they're going to need to spread the wealth around, and keep a low-priced model on-hand. However, if they could produce the Cien as a MR sports car with a 600 BHP V12, they would sell like hot-cakes... Delicious hot, hot-cakes. As I understood the origional post, GM would stand to make the most money on a Cien-type car, but it would cost less to develop an S-Class competitor. Hence the "confirmation" of the 'ULS.'

If Cadillac tries to take on Mercedes' S-Class (or even Lexus, for that matter) then they are in serious danger of being outclassed.

Unless the quality improves quickly, they might not stand a chance...

Well, in earlier posts I did show the improving interior quality of Cadillac, and given that they are the third-highest rated company in America in terms of quality (behind Lexus and Buick), if anything the others should be worried. The improvements of Cadillac in the past five or so years has been astounding given where they have been in the past 25 or so years. Just the fact alone that they are doing this proves that GM has their balls back, and they certainly won't face the competition without packing some kind of heat.

The General has been surprising a lot of people lately, and this is another good instance where it could work out well. The S-Class may be a spot too hard to shoot for, but even if they benchmarked the S-Class, they would be farther ahead than the majority of the competition, so it may work out well for them...

 

[Philly]

Props to Caddy for going the road less travelled and attempting to go straight to the top, Mercedes. I guess it's either that or a wanna-be wanna-be BMW (wanna-be Lexus).

If they are going to actually sell this car, they probably should price it at less than $70K. I would bet money that this first attempt will not get them very close to the S-class, and in order to sell an inferior car, prices will have to be lower. It would make the same sense as trying to sell a Sebring at Audi prices. Plus, Caddy doesn't have the brand image to compete as well, and the American public will likely want bigger power and a lower price from an American company. When buying an S, you get class and exclusivity. American cars don't come with that.

 

[harrytuttle]

I harbor no illusions that this will beat the S-Class, or even the A8, but I fully believe it will be another step forward for Cadillac. Since the debut of the CTS, each next release has been an improvement in one way or another. This should be no different (in that it will be better than any other recent Cadillac). I eagerly await photos, sketches, and more specs. 👍 to Caddy.

 

[JCE]

...Well, they aren't building the Cien (yet). The Sixteen has been semi-greenlighted, but will only use a V12, not the full-size engine. Granted, the Cien may still be on the table, given that there have been discussions of a mid-engine variant of the Corvette, which would presumably be a Cadillac model. Light weight and the big V12 would certainly be a decent idea for Porsche 911 and Mercedes SL money...

As for the XLR-V, it was never intended to be a big-time seller, but they have moved enough of them to make GM happy. Most of the engine technology has gone into the STS-V anyway, and I certainly am in the camp in which the STS-V's version of the 4.4L S/C Northstar would be a better idea than the 25 BHP-short XLR-V. But when you really weren't expecting to sell more than 1000 a year, and people are buying them, complaints from average people aren't going to mean much.



1) The XLR is a good idea, they just need to fine-tune it. My guess is that they will keep building them. Sales have been good enough, and the press/public seems to have accepted the car well enough.
2) They are doing the Sixteen (as noted earlier), the Cien is still up in the air.
3) The V16 idea is pretty much dead, given that they are doing a V12 based on the LY7 V6. They could do a twin LS2 V16, but the origional concept used twin LS7s, and it was a completely functional design... But the V12 is it, for now...
4) Supercharger? Dunno. Could happen with the V12...
5) $120K is the price range they were considering for both cars, but a good guess puts the 'ULS' (thats what I'm calling it from now-on) in a start range probably in the $70K-ish range, north of $100K for the full-fledged V12 version.



How much is drastically? The XLR starts at $78K, which isn't too bad considering that similarly-equipped models start at about $81K for the XK, about $82K for the 650ci, about $95K for the SL550... The only major competitor to undercut it is the SC430 at about $66K. But the SC430 sucks, so you get what you pay for...

The only change I would demand from Cadillac is more-power for the XLR, given than 320 BHP isn't quite enough anymore. Maybe a "S/C-lite" version would be an acceptable idea?



Certainly so. Given that the 'ULS' will likely replace the DTS at the top of the heap, they're going to need to spread the wealth around, and keep a low-priced model on-hand. However, if they could produce the Cien as a MR sports car with a 600 BHP V12, they would sell like hot-cakes... Delicious hot, hot-cakes. As I understood the origional post, GM would stand to make the most money on a Cien-type car, but it would cost less to develop an S-Class competitor. Hence the "confirmation" of the 'ULS.'



Well, in earlier posts I did show the improving interior quality of Cadillac, and given that they are the third-highest rated company in America in terms of quality (behind Lexus and Buick), if anything the others should be worried. The improvements of Cadillac in the past five or so years has been astounding given where they have been in the past 25 or so years. Just the fact alone that they are doing this proves that GM has their balls back, and they certainly won't face the competition without packing some kind of heat.

The General has been surprising a lot of people lately, and this is another good instance where it could work out well. The S-Class may be a spot too hard to shoot for, but even if they benchmarked the S-Class, they would be farther ahead than the majority of the competition, so it may work out well for them...

The XLR is decent looking and has a semi-decent interior for an American car--my problem is it can't compete with cars half its price--much less Porsche or Merc.

 

[McLaren]

...Well, they aren't building the Cien (yet). The Sixteen has been semi-greenlighted, but will only use a V12, not the full-size engine. Granted, the Cien may still be on the table, given that there have been discussions of a mid-engine variant of the Corvette, which would presumably be a Cadillac model. Light weight and the big V12 would certainly be a decent idea for Porsche 911 and Mercedes SL money...

If they built the Cien and priced it at $100,000 and made it perform like a Porsche or BMW, it would sell very well.

As for the Sixteen, worthless to price it at Porsche/Mercedes levels, aka $100,000-$160,0000. It's competitors will have high mark ups above it, but they'll be worth $120,000-$160,000 tag than a $110-120,000 Cadillac.

5) $120K is the price range they were considering for both cars, but a good guess puts the 'ULS' (thats what I'm calling it from now-on) in a start range probably in the $70K-ish range, north of $100K for the full-fledged V12 version.

$120K for a V12 Cadillac...will never sell. The Cien, maybe. Again, it'll have to sport the performance to match its looks. But a $120,000 Sixteen-derived sedan won't sell.

How much is drastically? The XLR starts at $78K, which isn't too bad considering that similarly-equipped models start at about $81K for the XK, about $82K for the 650ci, about $95K for the SL550... The only major competitor to undercut it is the SC430 at about $66K. But the SC430 sucks, so you get what you pay for...

Drastically is $30,000 mark down. In other words, price the V model at the XLR's MSRP. Any XLR is overpriced. It does not matter if the BMW is $4,000 more, you get what you pay for, and that is high-quality German craftsmen ship. The Caddy's interior looks like cheap plastic that just came off the Chevrolet it's derived from.

As for the other Merc, XK, and SC430, I'll say this. I see more Mercedes SLs, and BMW 650s so both companies must hold something that makes their more expensive cars sell better than the Cadillacs. I also see more SC430s, and I wil disagree on it sucking balls compared to a XLR-V.

Because at least Lexus is smart enough to know not to sell a "competitor" to BMW and Mercedes at BMW/Mercedes prices. But apparently, General Motors hasn't figured this out yet.

The XLR-V is just worthless. You don't get anything you pay for except a V8. If I wanted power from a $100,000 conv., I'd easily go out and buy a $105,000 M6 Convertible. That's right. For just $5,000 more at MSRP, you can buy a M6 Conv. over the XLR-V. For $5,000 more, you get 80 horses out of a more performanced-V10, higher quality, a car that will slap the XLR-V on the race track, and something GM could never afford to do.

Free Maintenance for any BMW Owner as part of their warranty. GM would go bankrupt in a heartbeat just offering this exclusively to Corvettes.

The XLR-V has the price tag of a BMW without any joys of the BMW.

The General has been surprising a lot of people lately, and this is another good instance where it could work out well. The S-Class may be a spot too hard to shoot for, but even if they benchmarked the S-Class, they would be farther ahead than the majority of the competition, so it may work out well for them...

Who are these "people", and what are they so surprised at? Is it that Cadillac is improved within the years, but think they're at the level of the German luxury? I will say they have greatly improved. But this doesn't give them the right idea to start messing with the Germans.

As for the S-Class, I doubt they can come near Mercedes' top-of-the-line sedan.

 

[Tornado]

I also see more SC430s, and I wil disagree on it sucking balls compared to a XLR-V.

To the XLR-v, it does. To the XLR, it is a bit behind. And this is coming form someone who almost loathes the XLR.

 

[McLaren]

To the XLR-v, it does. To the XLR, it is a bit behind. And this is coming form someone who almost loathes the XLR.

Ok, I'll agree there. But I would rather get the SC430 than the XLR. Not only is it cheaper, but I find the interior incredibly more nicer than the Caddy. Being someone who was given a short XLR test drive, I can say from that the SC430 had more pickup, and seemed to be a better handler. Of course, the salesman at Caddy wouldn't let me try the XLR's U-Turn capabilities, so I can't compare.

I did notice that the SC430 was also quiter. The XLR sounded like something was clinking inside the engine at every up-shift.

But I don't hate the XLR or XLR-V. I think they're ok, and that Caddy's idea is in the right place. I just don't think the price is worth it at all, esp. when one of the XLR-Vs Sport Convertible competitors is a BMW M6 at only $5 grand more.

 

[JCE]

The XLR-V for $65~75k and the normal XLR for $50~60k would be a decent enough deal. If Cadillac reduced the price to something in this range I would automatically become an XLR supporter.

However, the SC430 is hideous compared to the XLR on the outside. The Lexus interior is 1000% better--but the exterior the XLR wins hands down.

 

[YSSMAN]

The price gripes have one huge issue: Cutting them by that much puts them down in Corvette range, as nicely-equipped Corvettes can easily go near the $60K mark, not including the $70K Z06. I would agree that they could slash the prices just a bit, maybe by $10K or so to make the XLR seem like a logical step-up from the Corvette, but in that they would need to pack-in more BHP.

My suggestions for improvement (overall):

- Ditch the 4.6L Northstar V8 in favor of the 6.2L L92 V8 from the Escalade, good for 403 BHP. By doing so, they would also move up to the nice 6L80E automatic with the paddle-shifters from the Corvette, skipping the semi-good idea of their version of manumatic.
- Redo the interior by borrowing extensively from the all-new CTS, the updated STS, and the updated SRX. Most of those pieces would translate well into a $70K car, particularly those from the STS, and would drastically improve the look and feel of the XLR from the inside.
- Offer a sportier suspension from the get-go, or at least a sportier tune with the Magnaride suspension... I want to see the XLR being able to chase-down the Europeans a little easier...

Reasonable demands, all of which could be done easily by Cadillac. We are due for a freshening of the car pretty soon I would imagine, and with the number of new-car debuts in New York (I believe it was close to twelve), chances are good that the XLR could be there in updated form...

BTW: The only car that keeps me away from the XLR in most-cases is the Jaguar XK, and then the obvious ultra-powerful Mercedes models...

 

[YSSMAN]

Uh-oh...

Last week, a report by AutoWeek magazine claimed General Motors had approved development of a Cadillac sedan designed to tackle the Mercedes S-Class. The report said testing of a new V12 engine for the car was "well underway" by Holden in Australia. GM product planner Bob Lutz and Holden's engineering boss have both flatly denied the report.

"It’s definitely not happening," executive director of engineering Tony Hyde told Australia's GoAuto. The AutoWeek report claimed GM vice chairman Bob Lutz stated in an interview that development had already begun at Holden for a 7.2-liter V12 made from two 3.6-liter V6s joined at the crankshaft.

"We are definitely not doing it," Hyde said. “It might be possible to join two V6s, but we are not doing it. None exist in our part of the world and we are certainly not testing anything like that at Lang Lang."

"We are not working on any Cadillacs," he continued. "Nothing. We’re full-up in terms of resources with Camaro and our own cars. The G8 is a challenge from a timing point of view."

Lutz denies

In an email response to a member of the GMInsideNews chat forums, Lutz also denied the report.

"Sadly, that article was about 90 percent pure invention," Lutz said. "We have kicked off no such program."

Baseless rumors?

It's not known how AutoWeek could make an error of this magnitude. The report was based around a purported interview with Lutz at the opening of a dealership in Europe. While Lutz may have commented on a super sedan project, it appears he didn't state anything near what the magazine claims.

The report also cited "sources" within Holden that were adamant about the Australian firm's involvement in the project.

In December, AutoWeek claimed Ford was developing sedan and station wagon versions of the popular Mustang for the 2011 model year. After the report was published, Ford was inundated with hate mail from Mustang fans. This prompted Ford to take the unusual step of issuing a press release denying the baseless rumors.

Well that is unfortunate, but it does make sense. Holden has their hands full with the Camaro and the presumed development of the Monaro as well, so I doubt they would want to work on another Cadillac as well. It just wouldn't make much sense...

 

[Danny]

We are definitely not doing it. It might be possible to join two V6s, but we are not doing it

...So are they gonna do it?

 

[YSSMAN]

They might do it, eventually, but they aren't doing it right now... Or, they won't tell us they are doing it now. Remember, Cadillac had a working Northstar V12 program not too long ago, and one would assume that there are still a few examples running around... But, it sounds like Cadillac (and thereby GM) wants to stick with V8s for their high-power offerings...

 

[Danny]

Well, what would the V12 really add to Cadillac's arsenal?

Well, prestige for the people who buy it, but I imagine that if someone had money enough to buy the Cadillac V12 Supersaloon, they'd take the German route anyway.

As not-poor as the current Caddy's are, the large saloon is possibly the most brand-image driven sector.

Bad memories of the 90's quagmire will haunt Cadillac. Anyone wanting a V12 luxury saloon is likely very concious of this.

But don't get me wrong, I'd dearly love to see Cadillac pull off a good car and raise their game, but a direct challenge to Mercedes, Audi, BMW and Jaguar without a gargantuan price advantage is almost hara-kiri.

 

[Slicks]

Oh, I see the problem here...

Somebody's been reading AutoWeek.
I mean, come on. I thought it was generally accepted that AutoWeek sucks. They're so far behind in the news every time I see them, that they've probably found the original press releases for the Northstar V12 program and published 'em.

 

[Jay]

and the presumed development of the Monaro as well

More likely work on wagon and ute replacments before the Monaro, to free up the factory of all VZ (OMEGA) based cars. Although they could be doing the Monaro the same time.

 

[Pupik]

I wish more people would look at the XLR as an SL alternative, but it's hard to convince people that Cadillac is a viable player in the field.

Which is exactly why Cadillac shouldn't have two $70,000+ cars in its lineup. The XLR already exists as a flagship. An S-Class competitor isn't going to bring many new buyers to the brand at this time, so it's wise to put that idea on the back burner for now...I'm sure the car will arrive when GM can rake in profits consistently for the next two years.

Even then, it's a tough market: The Lexus LS and the S-Class pretty much have this market to themselves, with the 7-series not far behind. Chasing Jaguar and Audi's flagship territories is sort of like Spain invading Andorra.

 

[YSSMAN]

Interesting news that had been discussed on GMI for ages...

For eons, the image of a Cadillac ingrained into our minds was that of an XL cruiser wafting down the highway consuming asphalt and small rodents without complaint. That perspective is set to change, as Cadillac plans to drop the slow-selling STS and DTS models, and instead focus its efforts on creating another CUV, a new mid-sized sedan and an entry-level RWD offering.

The plans to redesign the SRX crossover have been nixed due to poor sales, and in its place a new V6-powered, five-passenger CUV, likely to be dubbed the BRX, will go on sale in 2009. More importantly, Cadillac plans to focus its sporting credentials by expanding the CTS lineup to include both a wagon and a coupe, all in an effort to sway consumers interested in the segment-leading BMW 3-series.

Going after the Bavarian boys won't be easy, so in addition to the expansion of the CTS line, Cadillac's replacement for the STS and DTS will take aim at the BMW 5-series, with a high-performance RWD sedan. That, coupled with a proposed entry-level sedan will round out the new Cadillac lineup.

Although the Automotive News article doesn't cite a time-frame for this somewhat radical proposal, we'd expect to see some of Cadillac's new wares popping up in quick order, beginning in Detroit next year.

Its really not anything particularly surprising. The first post here clearly pointed towards that idea, moving the cars about in a way that would basically put the CTS as the "middle of the road" model, undercutting it with a RWD Alpha-based BLS, and then choosing either the STS or the DTS to make up the "big sedan" duty with a Zeta-based chassis.

The SRX deal however is a bit surprising, but then again, it is where the market is moving. As long as they base this BRX on a decent chassis (I'm going to assume Alpha for now), they should be fine. Using the new direct-injection V6 should make the CUV more than adaptable in the future, and furthermore, the oft-rumored Ultra V8 should be worth it as well (rumored outputs are getting closer to 400 BHP).

We'll see. Cadillac is still the golden child at GM, but when they are also throwing more and more money into Buick, Saturn, and Pontiac at the same time, they do need to keep watch of the flagship as well.

 

[YSSMAN]

UPDATE!

The rumor that the Cadillac DTS and STS will be nixed has officially been confirmed in an interview with the brand's general manager, Jim Taylor. Sales of both models are down for the year, and Taylor admits that one premium-luxury sedan will be developed to compete in the segment.

In the Automotive News interview, Taylor and his superior, Troy Clarke, GM's president of North America, also confirmed that a new entry-level model, designed to slot in below the CTS, is a distinct possibility. Both execs feel that Cadillac's brand image could sustain such a vehicle, likely to be priced in the $28,00 to $32,000 range.

No time frame was given for either new model, but Mr. Taylor also mentioned that a high-end, ultra-luxury flagship is still alive and well.

Its what we had expected for the most part. The big question largely remains;

1) Will the new large sedan be a larger version of Sigma II?

2) Will the new large sedan use a premium version of Zeta?

3) Is this the end of the L-Body (given that Buick may switch to Zeta)?

 

[High-Test]

Look! I solved the problem!

Kill the DTS, and STS

Replace with one model:

The El Dorado Brougham.

Although, the last El Dorado won't be kindling many fond memories. But, a nice RWD sedan/coupe with the right styling could be a great move on Cadillac's part. Hey, the CTS is working, so they're doing something right.

 

[Kent]

I'm pretty sure "Eldorado" was one word instead of "El Dorado."
Can't be perfectly sure of that but I'm close.

Also, I'm not sure what Cadillac plans to do but I get the feeling it will be good (whatever it is) since they've already found a positive response from the public with the CTS.

Maybe Cadillac will really work to compete with Mercedes? I think that's asking for a lot but I'm not going to count them out yet!

 

[YSSMAN]

My guess would have been that they could call the CTS coupe the Eldorado, but I have no idea if that was ever certain or not.

Maybe its just me, but I'd want to see the STS name stick around, or use the new ULS name like it has been discussed before. Assuming they supersize either the Sigma II chassis or utilized a highly-modified Zeta chassis, there are a wide variety of applications that could be utilized by the time this car goes onto market... I'm sure there will be a wide variety of V6 and V8 options, God forbid GM actually gets around to a V12. I'm guessing everything will be direct-injection (DIG) formulated, which mean power should probably shoot from 304 BHP to about 500 BHP. That is, of course, dependent on what the "Ultra" V8 has in store, assuming that it is a DIG engine. Furthermore, my guess is that the cars will debut the new 8-speed gearbox GM is working on, and will probably have AWD as an option as well.

We'll see.

---

As for the BLS, remember that its going RWD for 2010 or later. That means its on the Alpha chassis, basically a shrunken Zeta, much in the same way Kappa was in relationship to the Y-Body (read Corvette, XLR). That car should be a bit smaller than the CTS, much closer to the 3-series in size and performance, and should be quite cheap as well. Hoping for the best, there will be a good variety of V6 and V8 options, probably with six-speed gearboxes and the option of AWD.

...And given that it will share a platform with the next Pontiac G5, my guess is that it will be quite exciting indeed...

 

[TopHat]

I'd want a BTS-V!

I was just wondering how the power trains would work out(pure speculation on my part).... Like this I'd suppose:

BLS: 2.8L LP1 V6 w/ -230 horses
BTS: 3.6L LY7 V6 w/ `260-270 hp
BTS-V: 4.6L LH2 "Northstar" V8 w/ 320 horsepower


^That'd be great! ^

The next CTS would have to have more "premium" engines with the introduction of the BLS/BTS:

CLS/CTS: 3.6L High Feature LLT V6 w/ 302 horsepower
CLS/CTS: 4.6L Northstar V6 w/ 350-375 horses
CTS-V: Whatever they're stuffing in the current CTS-V.

 

[Philly]

Didn't they just debut a new STS? Is there actually a DTS in production? Cadillac must really be failing. I rarely see any STS's, and I could swear they launched a redesign in the last 6-8 months. As for the DTS, I can't ever remember seeing one on the road. I thought they were still on the "thinking about it" stage.

Hopefully the new big sedan will be a decent vehicle. I think that if they tried they could at least hold a candle to some of the lesser models in that segment. But I would rather them make a BLS instead of a ULS if only one was going to be made. Smaller is better, and in the ULS market, you will be dealing with people who won't mind throwing away a little extra dough to take it to the next level.

 

[YSSMAN]

My guesstimates for what will happen:

BLS Models

BLS 2.8: 230 BHP V6
BLS 3.6: 270 BHP V6 (DIG engine with 300 BHP possible)
BLS-V: 350 BHP "Ultra" V8 (DOHC replacement for Northstar program)

---

CTS Update

CTS 3.6 DI: 300 BHP DIG V6
CTS V8: 350-400 BHP "Ultra" V8
CTS-V: 650 BHP LS9

===

As for the STS and DTS, they aren't going anywhere until the end of the decade. The STS just had an exterior and interior refresh with the addition of the DIG 3.6L V6, so it will be around for a while. The DTS just had its refresh less than a year ago, and that will likely stick around as long as the L-Body holds-up, or probably until 2010 or 2011.

 

[McLaren]

So they're going to hack off the good looking models, and keep the ugly one?

Nice GM......

 

[TopHat]

I've got to be honest with you YSSMAN.... I like the DeVille. Alot. I don't know why either!

 

[YSSMAN]

So they're going to hack off the good looking models, and keep the ugly one?

Nice GM......

Well, you've got a few years to enjoy them. My guess is the BLS will look somewhat like the current car, obviously modernized just a bit, and the ULS (replacing the STS and DTS) will probably look like the Sixteen Concept.

...And there's nothing wrong with liking the DTS, the problem is, the Buick Lucerne is sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much better.

 

[V1P3R]

Cien Please! As for the rest... who cares. xD

 

[YSSMAN]

Cien is still a distinct possibility. My guess is that this "mid-engine Corvette" program is all for the Cien... I just want GM to give us a proper V12 this time around...

 

[Tornado]

I'm totally flabbergasted. Bob Lutz may have entered the company and made great decisions, but his recent ideas are quite stupid (and I'm sure its probably Wagoners fault). Sales being down for the two big cars or not, its hardly as if they are cannibalizing sales for each other, and you can't stand there and tell me it costs GM anything to make the DeVille.
Kill off the DeVille? Makes sense, but that essentially sends all traditionalist old people packing to Toyota and Lexus. And pretty much all of the sales from the car is probably profit.
Kill off the STS? The car that was just made perfect? And I hardly see why they feel the reason to drop the name now that they made the car good.
I wanted the BLS, but that was just because it had better build quality than the other Caddy's. Basing it on the same platform as other GM cars will probably ruin that, and it will probably only manage to steal CTS sales.
And the ULS? Cadillac isn't even close to coming near that segment.