Default shifting in GT5

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The standard gear shifts in prologue are not good at all. I mean after all we are racing the cars, so my question is, will this change in GT5...?
I prefered the gear shifts for the standard 370Z in the demo. I hope all the default gear shifts can be like this, obviously for those cars that don't have a gearbox like say the California and the Nissan GTR etc.

It shouldn't be as fast or faster than the clutch users, but it also shouldn't be that much slower.
 
Do you know how fast the gearchange is in a California/F430/Enzo etc. ??
60-40 milliseconds
=> its quit a bit faster then you would shift with the clutch method.

I think the automatic transmission should be changed. But only for the upshift.
Example:
GT5:P
The NSX has a max rev of nearly 9k rpm (end of the rpm-scale) but the auto shifts at 7k-7500 (beginning of the red rpm-scale).
The auto should shift a bit later ;)

But i think the animation of the Gearchange should also be changed or modified. But there is plenty of time for PD to do that ;)
 
I think if you had to put a default automatic F40, against the manual F40, against a clutch user F40 drag race, the results would be astounding. The clutch user could pull at least half a car length each gear over the manual. Let's not even talk about the auto...lol
They have to make this better, I hope.
 
Is that true? In a drag race with the manual F40 (pad user) against a manual F40 (clutch user), both can rev to the same limits, but pushing a button to change gear would surely be quicker than pressing the clutch and shifting manually?

By way of real-world example (and I know this is way off the mark, but still...), the DSG version of my car using tiptronic mode is something like 0.2 seconds faster 0-60 over the standard clutch and manual shift.
 
The first thread I started on this forum was called "Automatic Transmissions" ( link in post below ) where i argued for a better replicated automatic function on those cars which were only available IRL with an automatic transmission.
It always bugged me that autos in GT were basically manual shifting itself ( only when those cars were indeed automatic IRL not manual which is logical to be manual shifting itself ), not at all truly replicating the other aspects of automatic ( kickdown, etc. ).

To be honest, manual as it is never bothered me, sure there will be differences according to controller/clutch users, etc. but those probably only extend mostly to speed of shifting.
 
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Thanks Tokyo D for helping out a noob like me....:)
 
Is that true? In a drag race with the manual F40 (pad user) against a manual F40 (clutch user), both can rev to the same limits, but pushing a button to change gear would surely be quicker than pressing the clutch and shifting manually?

By way of real-world example (and I know this is way off the mark, but still...), the DSG version of my car using tiptronic mode is something like 0.2 seconds faster 0-60 over the standard clutch and manual shift.

Well try it. Go do a F40 Fuji tt (Pro physics) using your pad against a clutch top 10 user. Try to keep up with him after the first bend...impossible.
With the pad/button, there is a long pause between 1st and 2nd gear and so on. With the clutch, it drastically shortens that pause.

Another example, also try the Ford GTLM race car (pro) on daytona road.
Just open your eyes and watch how p1 (using clutch) just pulls away.
 
Yes and no to the F40 manual clutch shifter drag thing.

Yes manual shifting is miles faster as sure you press a button but the speed the computer changes is slower than I can do with G25.
However, this will only work if they fix the pathetic thing where by as the car is wheelspinning in 1st from a full bore launch, you short shift into second to cull this and it just jumps into neutral. I can't stand that, it needs to change.

And to the nsx 9k comment, yes it does rev round to it but the power band seems to top out at about 7.5, 9 is handy for keeping the same gear through a section however.
 
Thanks Tokyo D for helping out a noob like me....:)
Hehe noo-b-problem! ;)

DCP
Well try it. Go do a F40 Fuji tt (Pro physics) using your pad against a clutch top 10 user. Try to keep up with him after the first bend...impossible.
With the pad/button, there is a long pause between 1st and 2nd gear and so on. With the clutch, it drastically shortens that pause.

Another example, also try the Ford GTLM race car (pro) on daytona road.
Just open your eyes and watch how p1 (using clutch) just pulls away.
No no, I take your word for it. So clearly the gear changes on the up are not fast enough as people have been saying 👍
 
I think depending on tracks and how many times gears need to be changed, u could be just under a second slower than a clutch user. I'm hoping that GT5 could close that gap to say, .300 of a second. I think it would be unfair to clutch users if it the gap is closer than this, as more effort is needed for the clutch guys.
 
DCP
I think depending on tracks and how many times gears need to be changed, u could be just under a second slower than a clutch user. I'm hoping that GT5 could close that gap to say, .300 of a second. I think it would be unfair to clutch users if it the gap is closer than this, as more effort is needed for the clutch guys.
Haha, yep, purely by choice! For a given car, if a tiptronic-style gear change in real life is faster than a manual shift with clutch, that's how it should be in the game. I'm sure that using a clutch will have other benefits too, so on balance it's all fair!
 
Haha, yep, purely by choice! For a given car, if a tiptronic-style gear change in real life is faster than a manual shift with clutch, that's how it should be in the game. I'm sure that using a clutch will have other benefits too, so on balance it's all fair!

But a tiptronic is a semi-auto unlike a full manual with clutch, so to fully replicate it truthfully in game you would have to distinguish between different types of transmission ( that's why I created that thread ).
You can't ( or at least that's my opinion ) make a manual act like a semi-auto if accuracy is wanted or desired.
Best way is probably reducing the time differences for none clutch users but there should still be a replicated gap to illustrate it has a clutch instead of a semi-auto/paddleshift, etc.
 
Regarding The action itself:

The Automatic and systems such as DSG, or systems found on high end, more expensive cars (Ferrari), will always be much faster than any human being can manually shift gears....
What makes the difference is: Anticipation


But for the human being who shift and clutch, that person can anticipate well in advance before the action has to be done... the time of mental preparation save valuable seconds and, that's what currently make the difference.
that's why we say that Clutch shift is "faster" than Automatic shifts.

Per design, the automation of shifting gears will be limited in terms of anticipation... it can only react to inputs from the driver...




We are not talking about the action of shifting...
but rather we are talking about the whole processing:


- From deciding to shift, to actually shift, and complete the shifting.


All in all:
by the time the driver using the automatic control of shifting, has activated the lever or paddle,
the driver who manually shift already has engage the clutch and ready to release ;)


Both the action and the process of manually shifting will be longer than if done by the computer/automation...





BUT what is the difference again is anticipation... No computer now is able to make that slip second decision for you and anticipate, other than yourself ;)
 
But a tiptronic is a semi-auto unlike a full manual with clutch, so to fully replicate it truthfully in game you would have to distinguish between different types of transmission ( that's why I created that thread ).
You can't ( or at least that's my opinion ) make a manual act like a semi-auto if accuracy is wanted or desired.
Best way is probably reducing the time differences for none clutch users but there should still be a replicated gap to illustrate it has a clutch instead of a semi-auto/paddleshift, etc.
It's a tough one, because as you know, in-game we have all these different cars that regardless of what their transmission options are like in real life, can be driven in fully-automatic mode, manual sequential and manual with clutch. Historically, automatic cars had much slower gear changes and acceleration, but with the advent of dual-clutch systems, that's all changed. Like I said, the DSG version of my car can out-accelerate my normal manual car with clutch, so I'd expect that to be replicated in-game. When set to auto, the game should know that IRL, this car has faster gear changes than are possible with a manual clutch. Overall performance is down to whether you opt for fully automatic (auto), or squential (manual) mode. Clutch users would have to suffer in this example.

Obviously there is more to performance than just shifting speed, but I would have thought that it would be pretty easy for PD to include a variable in their physics model to control shifting speed for each car and transmission type.

Having said all that, I'm not really that consistent or fast enough for any of that to matter! :lol:

Edit: Interesting post on the whole anticipation thing, but as described it sounds counter-intuitive. If you are in identical cars, but one has a manual clutch, and the other has flappy paddles in sequential mode, why should "anticipation" have any bearing on performance? In both cases, you are accelerating, listening out for the revs, and deciding when to change gear. Once you have made that decision to change gear:

- With a manual car you have to press the clutch, select the gear, then disengage the clutch. This takes time.
- With flappy paddles, you just have to flick the paddle when you want to change gear, and depending on the car, a few milliseconds later the gear has been changed for you.

I would have though then, that from the time you decide to shift, to actually completing the process, would be quicker using the new dual-clutch systems out there. My car is certainly proof that the DSG version can hit 60mph faster than the manual, and it's all down to the speed and efficiency of the automated gear changes.

Very interesting - we should let the Mythbusters tackle this one! :)
 
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It's a tough one, because as you know, in-game we have all these different cars that regardless of what their transmission options are like in real life, can be driven in fully-automatic mode, manual sequential and manual with clutch.

Yes true, but in the Automatic Transmission thread I explained the in-game auto function ( which indeed transforms all cars into auto-mode ) should remain for those people who simply can't be bothered to shift themselves.
It is therefore not accurate as it's just manual being shifted itself by the game engine deciding when to shift ( apart from the fact a lot of these cars aren't even available as automatic IRL ).
If you chose manual for all cars as default, I suggested some cars should still be only driven as automatic ( but truthfully replicated ) if they were only available as automatic IRL ( unless you fitted them with a custom manual bought in the tuning-shop ).
 
Sounds logical to me, analog.

Thanks, it also makes perfect sense to me as it is both logical as more truthful or realistic than the current system.
But I don't want to further hijack this thread by DCP whose argument for reducing the clutch-time differences which currently seems to depend on hardware choices also make perfect sense to me. :)
 
A typical example is the merc on gt5p. Whether u chose auto or manual, the result is still the same, but with manual, u can run the revs in the red. I don't think u are allowed the clutch in these types of cars, as well as cali, GTR and ISF. I'm sure there will be quite a few of these models in gt5, LFA, ZR1, Lambo etc. Offcourse racers will go for these options when racing online to avoid losing out using an average car default shift.
To prevent this, Kaz/PD must look at the delay in manual pad shifts and make it slighty even.

I don't know if you guys can remember the Peugoet (spelling sorry) race car in GT4.
Terribly long breaks between shifts. Major disadvantage.
 
DCP
A typical example is the merc on gt5p. Whether u chose auto or manual, the result is still the same, but with manual, u can run the revs in the red. I don't think u are allowed the clutch in these types of cars, as well as cali, GTR and ISF. I'm sure there will be quite a few of these models in gt5, LFA, ZR1, Lambo etc. Offcourse racers will go for these options when racing online to avoid losing out using an average car default shift.
To prevent this, Kaz/PD must look at the delay in manual pad shifts and make it slighty even.

I don't know if you guys can remember the Peugoet (spelling sorry) race car in GT4.
Terribly long breaks between shifts. Major disadvantage.

Well that Peugeot 905 was probably realistically modelled, so the disadvantage for players using that same car would be equal ( just a characteristic of that particular car ).
The Mercedes you mentioned is a full-auto IRL without clutch and I think even without paddleshifts unlike the other cars you mentioned.

You should make a distinction between in-game function which applies to all cars and the distinct differences all cars have ( when realistically modelled ).
Some cars will shift up and down sooner than others ( that's just the way it should be ) but the difference between using a controller without clutch being quite big ( as in time ) compared to a steering wheel set-up is debatable ( debatable as in reducing the time for controller users ), although what CTznOfTime said about anticipation is also very relevant to explain this time gap ( when you first engage the clutch physically before shifting the game can react quicker than when it doesn't "know" when you're going to shift using a controller ).
 
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It's not the gear change in the game that is slow... it's the rev matching.

When you use the clutch on the G25, it doesn't cut out the throttle and it doesn't revmatch, at least I don't think so.

Two examples:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-x12vDRILlI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZhmgt18D7w

The clutch function was disabled in the time trial demo. I think we should reserve judgement on this for the final game. I would have thought automatics like the one in the Nissan GTR would be the fastest.
 
Kaz said all transmission typres are replicated in GT5, as far as manuals go, not sure about true auto slush box
 
DCP
Well try it. Go do a F40 Fuji tt (Pro physics) using your pad against a clutch top 10 user. Try to keep up with him after the first bend...impossible.
With the pad/button, there is a long pause between 1st and 2nd gear and so on. With the clutch, it drastically shortens that pause.

Have you ever tried to release the gas when upshifting with the pad? It really helps to change gear faster, it's like a little bonus for you when you do it correctly. 👍
 
Have you ever tried to release the gas when upshifting with the pad? It really helps to change gear faster, it's like a little bonus for you when you do it correctly. 👍

Haha, I started doing that and was convinced I was faster. Not sure if it was just a mental thing.

As for the gear changes, Seismica is spot on. The "rev-matching" is the "problem". It waits (and waits...) for the revs to drop to where they should be for the next gear, which, in a normal road car, takes a long time, owing to the "poor" responsiveness of the engine.
Now, with the clutch system, you can just hammer it in and let the revs drop down on the clutch (after a brief surge through the transmission, sometimes "chirping" the tyres in the right car). You can't quite drag it on the clutch though, to effectively "broaden" the power curve - in fact, the clutch control in general is atrocious (but then so is mine...)

Of course, the real skill is rev matching yourself, but rather than waiting for the exact rpm, re-engage the clutch a bit before in anticipation. Helps immensely, not least in terms of ironing out that boy-racer shift-sound...
In online races I've been able to recover from mid-corner errors simply because I can get my shifts down to about 200-300 ms, as opposed to 500-600 for a typical GTmatic. (Alright, I pulled those numbers out of my arse, but I'm sure most have some experience of this :dopey:)

And the GTR has, since the first prototype in one of the GT Concept versions way back when, had the proper Dual-clutch-type behaviour. It was a revelation at the time, since I was already fed up with the shifting - my favourite mods were clutch / flywheel combos to try to speed things up a bit!
 
It's not the gear change in the game that is slow... it's the rev matching.

When you use the clutch on the G25, it doesn't cut out the throttle and it doesn't revmatch, at least I don't think so.

Two examples:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-x12vDRILlI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZhmgt18D7w

The clutch function was disabled in the time trial demo. I think we should reserve judgement on this for the final game. I would have thought automatics like the one in the Nissan GTR would be the fastest.

Cheating is different, I hope this can be eliminated frm GT5 completely, but yeah, the default gear change shouldn't drop the revs so much.
It also sounds very boring, compared to the clutch, which sounds awesome.
The 370Z tuned in the demo sounded great, so that was a way forward.
 
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