Democrats' Health Care bill has been passed - SCOTUS ruling update

  • Thread starter Thread starter Eric Demory
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The Health Care bill.


  • Total voters
    120
Irish Independent website
Democratic congressmen arriving at the Capitol for procedural votes on Saturday were spat on and subjected to racist and homophobic abuse.
Wow. I have two words to say about these people: bad losers.
 
Apparently some protesters have been yelling racial slurs at black Democrats at protests the day before the big vote. Is it just me or are Republicans very bad losers?

It's not just Republicans, but people in general. You are always going to get that and there is no changing it. I can promise you if Obama was a Republican and this thing didn't end up passing you'd have Democrats yelling racial slurs at the protesters too.
 
But that is what you do, do you really think any Congress person cares if you don't like something they support? No not at all. All politicians are disconnected with the people now it seems and I don't care what party they represent.

This is why I think protesting is a huge waste of time and energy.

And of course insurance companies want this, it's a huge pay off to them (indirectly).

Then what's the point of voting if they won't listen to you after the fact.
 
Then what's the point of voting if they won't listen to you after the fact.

I ask myself that every November while staring blankly at a ballot sheet.
 
To help you all out, here is what was voted on:
http://docs.house.gov/rules/hr4872/111_hr3590_engrossed.pdf
It opens a 2,409 page PDF. I haven't read this.

Here is what I understand about this:

To start, how insurance works worked in the US:
Currently, I can buy insurance through my employer so that my monthly premiums are paid for out of my pay check before taxes are taken out. In essence I get a tax bonus for having insurance through my employer. This pre-tax deal cannot be done if you buy insurance on your own. And you cannot buy insurance outside of your own state, or the state your employer resides in (my insurance comes from Blue Cross Blue Shield of New Jersey).

Now, I have options that can cover me from anywhere between 80% and 100% (what I have due to my heart condition). Which plan I take determines my monthly premiums. Mine is expensive, but it is far cheaper than paying 20% of any one of my heart procedures.

But, I also have a family. I can buy insurance that just covers me, or pay a little more to cover my wife and myself, or pay a more to cover any children. Upgrading from 1+spouse to a family plan is expensive, but it does not change if you have more kids.

When one of us sees a doctor we pay a copay of about $30, and something similar for prescription drugs, although I can get a 3 month supply of my heart medicines for as cheap as $4 per medicine.

My heart condition is covered because Kentucky law states that as long as the condition was covered without fail in the past it must be continued. So, I have not fallen victim to the pre-existing condition issues that many bring up. But then I have always made sure to have some kind of coverage, even if minimal. I know a lot of people at my work that failed to do this because either A) they didn't want to pay for it (their fault) or B) they didn't know diabetes (for example) was considered a pre-existing condition (duh).

I have little sympathy for those that did not know how the system works, or didn't research to see how they were affected. My knowing is why I had the paperwork to add my daughter filled out before she was born and just had to fax a copy of the birth certificate to my human resources department so they could fill in the birth date details. Essentially, if it wasn't discovered at her delivery check-up, it is covered. She was given a clean bill of health at birth.

I should also add that if it changed and the only way to cover my pre-existing condition was to pay more, I would understand and accept that.


How I understand things will change.

First, pre-existing conditions are no longer allowed to be denied coverage. This is why I should support this reform. My signature quote is why I do not.

Here is the rest of what the White House statement says will happen this year. http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2010/03/21/reform-begins-now
This year, thousands of uninsured Americans with pre-existing conditions will have the opportunity to purchase quality, affordable health insurance. Beginning in 2010, small business owners will no longer be forced to choose between offering health care and hiring new employees because they’ll be offered tax credits of up to 35 percent of premiums to help insure their employees. Medicare beneficiaries will no longer wonder how they’ll afford their prescription drug bills because they’ll be given a rebate of $250 if they hit the prescription drug donut hole in 2010. And early retirees will be provided help through the creation of a temporary re-insurance program to help offset the costs of expensive premiums.

This year, you will now have the security of knowing that insurers cannot deny coverage to your child because of a pre-existing condition. You won’t have to live every day in fear of having your insurance taken away from you if you get sick. And for new plans, there won’t be lifetime or restrictive annual limits on the amount of care you receive from your insurance companies.
Of course, it leaves out that there are also tax increases this year on those making above a certain amount of money. In other words, any US members here that make above whatever the cut-off line is will cover my heart condition if I lose my job. I apologize to them. That is not your responsibility to bear.

Ongoing, there will be a mandate that unless you make below a certain amount each year (that is how the poor don't get hurt by the fine Famine) you have to have an insurance policy for yourself, and any dependents. So, if I covered myself, but not my perfectly healthy daughter, I still pay a fine. Also, employers who pay over so much in payroll every year have to provide a plan, which meets the new minimum standard of coverage, or also face a fine.

And insurance plans will have new regulations, requiring they cover so much, like the pre-existing coverage deal. I am unsure how they will do this and meet the promise of cheaper insurance without some form of price controls in place, so I have to assume that is there, or it is subsidized with taxes.

Either way, I am unsure how they are supposed to promise lower costs with better care unless there is a lot of subsidizing going on.

There is also a tax on what they are calling Cadillac tax plans. These are plans that have premiums, paid by employee and employer, over $8,500 for a single plan and $23,500 for a family plan. I believe I fall into this category, but I don't know since I can't see what my employer pays. But based on what I can see it looks like I might fall under that. That tax is supposedly going to be 40% of the exceeded amount. I don't get this. Well, I get that it punishes rich people for buying better insurance, but it is also a punishment for employers or employees who take an active roll in ensuring they have the best coverage.


As for deficit reduction, the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) predicts deficit reductions over 10 years, and can only say they expect similar reductions in the next decade, but note that it is too far out to assume the details and economic factors affecting how people buy insurance will change.

My personal thought is that the government won't quit tweaking the reform until it is more costly.




My overall opinion on this thing is that I will benefit from this, but it will be at a cost I am not willing to pay. This will reduce the freedom of those who are healthy, and force them to help pay for me. President Obama is correct, it is not fair to me that I was born with a heart defect. But that does not make it someone else's problem. It is one thing to provide coverage for those few who cannot take care of themselves at all, it is a wholly different thing to take care of me when I can drive to and from a middle management job every single day.





EDIT: I see Danoff's link has more updated information than I said above.
 
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What we're witnessing is the birth of an entitlement program that 20 years from now will be considered absolutely essential to modern society. Nobody will be able to imagine how anyone survived without government healthcare (which, 20 years from now it will have totally grown into). You'll tell them that private insurance companies used to exist that you could buy custom policies from and they'll laugh in your face. They'll tell you that you're counting on the market to do something that it wouldn't do. They'll tell you that more people would be dying in the streets, that society would collapse, that we'd all be dead by age 55 if it weren't for the underfunded, deficit-running government plan that was enacted 20 years ago in 2010.

There is so much not to like about this bill... namely... all of it. Not only does it ignore the problem that we have in our healthcare industry, but it attempts to put out the fire with gasoline. If our lawmakers understood even the most basic economic concepts they would recognize that what they are doing is guaranteed to exacerbate the problem.

Oh well, everyone get used to the US government healthcare system. It will only get bigger over the next 50 years.
 
Voted Yes and For the Bill to pass...


Better try a new formula than to reuse what is not working for everyone.
Nothing is perfect, certainly not the current health care system which is exclusive only to those have the means to pay.

I say give it a try!
 
Better try a new formula than to reuse what is not working for everyone.
People were suggesting a new formula, one based on a free market system, one that didn't only give tax incentives to those who buy through their employers, and one that allowed you to buy it from anyone anywhere in the country, one that did not force plans to cover a specific minimum, thus creating the costs we have today.

Instead, the president took all our current problems and put the government stamp on it, and forced us all to buy in that broken system.

Nothing is perfect, certainly not the current health care system which is exclusive only to those have the means to pay.
Yet, you are supporting a plan that uses our current system to make you pay, and draws a line at who the government says can afford. Everyone else pays one way or another or gets labeled a criminal.

If you don't like the current system, then why on Earth would you support this bill?

I say give it a try!
And if we don't like it? Or if it fails? When was the last time you saw government say, "Oops bad idea on our part. Lets get rid of that now." instead of just throwing more money at it?

And why would anyone want to give something a try that takes away part of your freedom?

But here is a question for you. What is so horrifically awful about choosing not to have health insurance that it should now be a crime?



As for what can be done to stop this, I had suggested that no one in the citizenry could do it because they must only challenge it after being charged with the heinous crime (HOW DARE THEY!!!) of not buying health insurance.

I forgot one group that can challenge it now: The States.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/storie...T_STAND?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
States line up to challenge health care overhaul
By DENISE LAVOIE
Associated Press Writer

States are already lining up to sue the federal government over the constitutionality of President Barack Obama's health care overhaul.

Officials in at least 10 states have agreed to file a lawsuit challenging the legislation.

Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott said he planned to file the complaint "the moment Obama signs the bill."

Abbott pledged to pursue the case "to protect all Texans' constitutional rights, preserve the constitutional framework intended by our nation's founders and defend our state from further infringement by the federal government."

Other states planning to challenge the bill were Alabama, Florida, South Carolina, Nebraska, North and South Dakota, Pennsylvania, Utah and Washington.

Nebraska Attorney General Jon Bruning said the measure "tramples on individual liberty and dumps on the states the burden of an unfunded mandate that taxpayers cannot afford."

Bruning, a Republican, is president of the National Association of Attorneys General. His statement did not explain why he believes the bill is unconstitutional. But other attorneys general have said it violates state sovereignty by mandating that all Americans have some form of health insurance.

The House voted 219-212 late Sunday to approve the overhaul, which would extend coverage to 32 million uninsured Americans and make a host of other changes. Obama could sign the bill as early as Tuesday.

And a video report as well.
 
Just been reading through the latest posts and there's a lot take in. As as UK citizen I hate the idea of having to purchase an insurance policy to cover my health. Knowing that whatever problems I have will be covered when I walk into a hospital is reassuring.

One concern I have about the current US health system is for those people who cannot get insurance to cover themselves or there family due to an existing condition. That must be a horrible situation to be in and a horrible burden to bear knowing that if you become ill you could end up with a huge bill or no treatment at all.

So (this may have already been suggested in this thread) but could the government have not introduced there own insurance policy for those people who cannot afford healthcare due to an inflated premium on an existing condition? So rather than forcing everyone to have health insurance, they simply offer those people in need a helping hand by way of easier payments or a slightly government subsidised policy.
 
So (this may have already been suggested in this thread) but could the government have not introduced there own insurance policy for those people who cannot afford healthcare due to an inflated premium on an existing condition? So rather than forcing everyone to have health insurance, they simply offer those people in need a helping hand by way of easier payments or a slightly government subsidised policy.
The original House bill had the public option, but there were so many burdens being placed on private plans that it became obvious it was a backdoor approach to a full government takeover. This bill pretends to do away with that by allowing co-ops or extensions so that large groups of people can band together and buy a large group plan without being connected in any way, and with government subsidies. Of course, the only way they could make that work was to force the 30+ million without insurance into it.


But then anytime you suggest government subsidies it means that you have to get that money somewhere and the public recently became all too aware of our deficit. And people are beginning to recognize that taking money from one group, just because they can afford it, in order to give it to another group is just socialism, no matter what you call it. And after Obama had his face photoshopped like The Joker with the word Socialism under it he has been trying to avoid that.


I should also add that buying insurance is only scary because you haven't done it. In a country of over 300 million people roughly 30 million fail to do it, and some of those are by choice.
 
So (this may have already been suggested in this thread) but could the government have not introduced there own insurance policy for those people who cannot afford healthcare due to an inflated premium on an existing condition? So rather than forcing everyone to have health insurance, they simply offer those people in need a helping hand by way of easier payments or a slightly government subsidised policy.

Most states have a form of health insurance(it's called Minnesota Care here in Minnesota). However the problem with that is that it doesn't cover a whole lot and you have to make next to nothing to get it.

Back on the bill, I don't see how pointing a gun down an uninsured persons throat will help them. Chances are if they could afford insurance they would have it already.:dunce:
 
Back on the bill, I don't see how pointing a gun down an uninsured persons throat will help them. Chances are if they could afford insurance they would have it already.:dunce:

If you are that poor already you either have Medicade or a going to be put on Medicade, that's how I read it at least. Poor people won't be forced to buy a policy they can't afford, they will just be "given" one so to speak.

This article outlines the winners and losers here:
http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/theg.../health-care-reform-s-winners-and-losers.aspx
 
But here is a question for you. What is so horrifically awful about choosing not to have health insurance that it should now be a crime?


You are seeing the problem from the wrong end... you are seeing the problem from the top down... which of course cannot see the problem.

You have to see the problem bottom up...
meaning that you should see it from the poor!

It is (and should) not be a crime for someone to refuse health insurance. (we agree here)

But it is (and should) be a crime for someone TO BE REFUSED health insurance and/or health CARE. (the point you seem to be missing)

This bill is supposed to make it a crime for the corporation to refuse to cover or for a health group to refuse to administer care to someone who is in need AND who is unable to pay for the charges.

This bill is NOT intended to punish those who refuse to buy health care or deny the service.

At least that's my understanding of the intention of this bill...


Now will it succeed or will it have the proper effect, i dont know... NOBODY knows! Just like pills the doctors give you, there will be side effects! But you gotta try it first in order to at least have a chance of getting better ;)


There will be a cost, but what do you prefer, which is more human?...
self-greed or care for others? this is the ultimate question.





Just been reading through the latest posts and there's a lot take in. As as UK citizen I hate the idea of having to purchase an insurance policy to cover my health. Knowing that whatever problems I have will be covered when I walk into a hospital is reassuring.

One concern I have about the current US health system is for those people who cannot get insurance to cover themselves or there family due to an existing condition. That must be a horrible situation to be in and a horrible burden to bear knowing that if you become ill you could end up with a huge bill or no treatment at all.

So (this may have already been suggested in this thread) but could the government have not introduced there own insurance policy for those people who cannot afford healthcare due to an inflated premium on an existing condition? So rather than forcing everyone to have health insurance, they simply offer those people in need a helping hand by way of easier payments or a slightly government subsidised policy.

Being a French Citizen at some point in my life, i appreciated the healthcare system i had benefited from when i was there!

That's why i understand and i agree with Mark T.

I wish it could be the same here in the States for those unfortunate family who are BEING DENIED (health) CARE in times of need because they dont have money or they dont have proper insurance to cover them.

Do you think that's right... for a doctor to say:

"Sorry, i cannot treat you, you first have to find a way to pay me first, then i will consider treating you..."

that's the crime.

PS: of course you will never hear it that way, the answer is always buttered up to cover the greed.
 
It is (and should) not be a crime for someone to refuse health insurance. (we agree here)

It's about to become a crime.

But it is (and should) be a crime for someone TO BE REFUSED health insurance and/or health CARE. (the point you seem to be missing)

Why?

Do you think that's right... for a doctor to say:

"Sorry, i cannot treat you, you first have to find a way to pay me first, then i will consider treating you..."

that's the crime.

Do you think that it's right to force others to do what you want without recompense?
 

Do you think that's right... for a doctor to say:

"Sorry, i cannot treat you, you first have to find a way to pay me first, then i will consider treating you..."

that's the crime.
[/B]

No it's NOT. The doctor has something I need: medical skill. What on earth about that means he must be forced to give it to me?! Nothing. The same with farmers or people who build houses: if I want medicine, dinner, and a roof to sleep under tonight, I bloody well better have something to offer them in exchange!

PS: of course you will never hear it that way, the answer is always buttered up to cover the greed.[/B]

So lets see: if a doctor, farmer, or builder already owns something I want, then he's greedy for wanting money in exchange for that item... but somehow I'm NOT greedy for expecting that thing to be given to me?

That makes no sense whatsoever.
 
How do you know a majority of America didn't want the bill though? I think I know more people who supported it then didn't, but that isn't any form of scientific fact. You will always have people complaining about something the government is doing and the media will always spin it so it looks like a bigger issue then it actually is.
37 states & over 50% of Americans have been reported as "Nay" to the bill. That screams majority to me.
This is why I think protesting is a huge waste of time and energy.
History will probably say otherwise in the US.

Do you think that's right... for a doctor to say:
"Sorry, i cannot treat you, you first have to find a way to pay me first, then i will consider treating you..."

that's the crime.
It's also a crime when Medicaid/Medicare are not paying a doctor's full cost of operation. There's a reason doctors do not take these patients & now that this bill has passed, many more people will be getting on Medicaid/Medicare.
 

Do you think that's right... for a doctor to say:

"Sorry, i cannot treat you, you first have to find a way to pay me first, then i will consider treating you..."

that's the crime.


Yes, it's perfectly fine. If you were to go to a car dealer and just ask if you could drive a car off the lot do you really think they would let you without proving you can pay for it?
 
Let's say Mr A was born with some kind of condition that will gradually deteriorate over say 20-30 years. In the beginning he can get health insurance without too many problems. His symptoms are relatively minor and he pays a small extra premium to cover it.

One day his situation clearly begins to get worse. The insurance company (who are tired of paying for his bills and clearly see that his condition is getting worse) decide that they are going to substantially increase his premium which makes it unaffordable. He then goes to several other insurers and they all are quoting ridiculously high premiums. Mr A cannot get insurance because of the affordability.

What option does Mr A currently have under the current US health system?

What option does Mr A currently have under the new health system?
 

You ask "why" it would be a crime not to treat someone who is in need of care?

>>> because that would be the same thing as pulling the trigger at someone.
you know someone can die because of you not doing anything...



Do you think that it's right to force others to do what you want without recompense?
the answer to this question, i agree with you...

but which one, between my question and yours has a more severe consequence if you answer "no" ?

If a dog owner refuse to pick up behind his pet in the street on a common area, are you going to give money to that person and recompense him/her in order for him/her to do what is "right"?! c'mon guys...

we are talking about health here, that should be the basic living rights...
sharing is caring... even if you do not care directly with thy neighbor, you should at least care indirectly... this earth is round, what goes round comes around.

Same thing with Firefighters.... should they come to your house and ask to be paid FIRST before they can put out the fire?


Now coming back to this specific subject, let's put your question in another light...
"Do you think that it's right to force doctors/surgeon/health care administrators to do what a person in need of car want without recompense?
NO, that's why they will be recompensed and not be put in jail if they take care of those patients. The recompense now is a jail free card.



No it's NOT. The doctor has something I need: medical skill. What on earth about that means he must be forced to give it to me?! Nothing. The same with farmers or people who build houses: if I want medicine, dinner, and a roof to sleep under tonight, I bloody well better have something to offer them in exchange!

So lets see: if a doctor, farmer, or builder already owns something I want, then he's greedy for wanting money in exchange for that item... but somehow I'm NOT greedy for expecting that thing to be given to me?

That makes no sense whatsoever.

A house is not the same thing as your health...

you can live without a house, but you cannot live without your health...
of course you cannot live without food, but we dont deal directly with the farmers nowadays...

As for the doctors, it is a direct relationship with the patients...
Doctors have skills and so they are very powerful people, they have the knowledge, but they cannot decide who should live or who should die based on their time's worth. There should be a little more fairness in all these.

Right now, the balance is tipped more on one way than another.

Some may think this is an immigration problem... but this problem does not only touch the immigrants.

Put yourself in the situation of a family, whose parents are in dear need of health care in order to support their family, but the solution is denied because they have insufficient fund... right now, that family must go home and wait for the end. The end of the kids' education, the end of the kids' chance to have a brighter future.


There should be a cap as to whom can sign up on Medicare/Medicaid and for how long...

How about some considerations? You might be thankful the next time someone returns you the favor.
 

You ask "why" it would be a crime not to treat someone who is in need of care?

>>> because that would be the same thing as pulling the trigger at someone.
you know someone can die because of you not doing anything...



Do you think that it's right to force others to do what you want without recompense?
the answer to this question, i agree with you...

but which one, between my question and yours has a more severe consequence if you answer "no" ?

If a dog owner refuse to pick up behind his pet in the street on a common area, are you going to give money to that person and recompense him/her in order for him/her to do what is "right"?! c'mon guys...

we are talking about health here, that should be the basic living rights...
sharing is caring... even if you do not care directly with thy neighbor, you should at least care indirectly... this earth is round, what goes round comes around.

Same thing with Firefighters.... should they come to your house and ask to be paid FIRST before they can put out the fire?


Now coming back to this specific subject, let's put your question in another light...
"Do you think that it's right to force doctors/surgeon/health care administrators to do what a person in need of car want without recompense?
NO, that's why they will be recompensed and not be put in jail if they take care of those patients. The recompense now is a jail free card.



No it's NOT. The doctor has something I need: medical skill. What on earth about that means he must be forced to give it to me?! Nothing. The same with farmers or people who build houses: if I want medicine, dinner, and a roof to sleep under tonight, I bloody well better have something to offer them in exchange!

So lets see: if a doctor, farmer, or builder already owns something I want, then he's greedy for wanting money in exchange for that item... but somehow I'm NOT greedy for expecting that thing to be given to me?

That makes no sense whatsoever.

A house is not the same thing as your health...

you can live without a house, but you cannot live without your health...
of course you cannot live without food, but we dont deal directly with the farmers nowadays...

As for the doctors, it is a direct relationship with the patients...
Doctors have skills and so they are very powerful people, they have the knowledge, but they cannot decide who should live or who should die based on their time's worth. There should be a little more fairness in all these.

Right now, the balance is tipped more on one way than another.

Some may think this is an immigration problem... but this problem does not only touch the immigrants.

Put yourself in the situation of a family, whose parents are in dear need of health care in order to support their family, but the solution is denied because they have insufficient fund... right now, that family must go home and wait for the end. The end of the kids' education, the end of the kids' chance to have a brighter future.


There should be a cap as to whom can sign up on Medicare/Medicaid and for how long...

How about some considerations? You might be thankful the next time someone returns you the favor.





Yes, it's perfectly fine. If you were to go to a car dealer and just ask if you could drive a car off the lot do you really think they would let you without proving you can pay for it?

How is a car the same thing as your health...?
Again, you can live without a car, just like we can still live without GT5,
But can you even try living without your health?


So now i have to choose between living and dying...??

how can i choose to live if i am dying?
 
You ask "why" it would be a crime not to treat someone who is in need of care?

>>> because that would be the same thing as pulling the trigger at someone.
you know someone can die because of you not doing anything...

It's not the same thing at all - if you don't do anything in your example, no-one dies.

I'm asking why it needs to be a crime to not offer someone insurance, or to not treat their illness. What about insurance companies and medical provision requires you to force them to do things on penalty of imprisonment?


the answer to this question, i agree with you...

but which one, between my question and yours has a more severe consequence if you answer "no" ?

Yours. If you believe it's fine to force doctors to give up their lives to look after others without any recompense, you undermine the entire concept of economy.

A house is not the same thing as your health...

you can live without a house, but you cannot live without your health...
of course you cannot live without food, but we dont deal directly with the farmers nowadays...

So why isn't food and water on your radar, when they are much more vital? Why is it only healthcare professionals who don't have a right to earn a living?

I won't die in 2 weeks if I don't receive healthcare. I will if I don't receive food or water. So where's my free food and water, given to me by people who must be forced under penalty of prison to provide it for me?


You're also missing the point - quite badly - that all the new Bill does is make it compulsory for people to have insurance, and that those who opt not to have it will be fined by the federal government - the fine constituting an insurance premium for public healthcare insurance. Who does this benefit?
 
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You are acting as if someone that is sick and has no insurance is sol when they aren't. If you are truly sick and in need of immediate care you can go to the ER where they will get you the treatment you need. Granted you will have to pay out of pocket but the medical attention is available.
 
You are seeing the problem from the wrong end... you are seeing the problem from the top down... which of course cannot see the problem.

You have to see the problem bottom up...
meaning that you should see it from the poor!
I am not exactly rich. But I also know the difference between need and want and have modeled my life to reflect that. Maybe you didn't read all my post: This bill benefits me because I can be bitten by the pre-existing condition clauses many insurers have. But, as my sig quote says, I refuse to ask another man to live for the sake of my life.

See, I am the Democrats' nightmare; the Libertarian principled health case. They should be trotting me out with my newborn daughter, showing how much they are helping me. But they aren't that stupid because they know the first words out of my mouth would be, "Get the hell out of my way." It is a literary reference. Look it up if you don't get it.

It is (and should) not be a crime for someone to refuse health insurance. (we agree here)
Then why does this bill do it?

But it is (and should) be a crime for someone TO BE REFUSED health insurance and/or health CARE. (the point you seem to be missing)
Why? And at a cost to whom?

This bill is supposed to make it a crime for the corporation to refuse to cover or for a health group to refuse to administer care to someone who is in need AND who is unable to pay for the charges.
No, this doesn't penalize insurance companies for refusing to help the poor. It makes the rich pay the insurance companies for them. The only corporations being punished are those that don't offer plans to their own employees, or the ones that offer too nice of a plan to their employee. Because we don't want people to have really good health insurance, right?

That right there shows the concern is more about image than helping. They don't want everyone to have health insurance just to see some people having better insurance. That is a case of haves and have nots still. No, you cannot get even better insurance without being punished. How dare you or your employer try to provide more for yourself and your family?

One could even draw a conclusion that they are punishing teh employer because it hurts that Evil Corporation BS line Obama has been spewing as he supported a bill creating 30 million new customers for them.

This bill is NOT intended to punish those who refuse to buy health care or deny the service.
Then why is it doing it? Answer that. Why is there a mandate? Why? Why? Why?

If I didn't think I would get in trouble for spamming I would just copy and paste "Why is there a mandate?" in response to every post that supports this bill. Why would I do that? Because I believe the mandate is unconstitutional, as do at least ten states attorney generals. But I bet those guys are just greedy corporate shills.

At least that's my understanding of the intention of this bill...
Great, you got one out of 2,406 pages understood. Now explain the rest of the BS in there

Now will it succeed or will it have the proper effect, i dont know... NOBODY knows! Just like pills the doctors give you, there will be side effects! But you gotta try it first in order to at least have a chance of getting better ;)

There will be a cost, but what do you prefer, which is more human?...
self-greed or care for others? this is the ultimate question.
So, compassion is a mandate now too?







Do you think that's right... for a doctor to say:

"Sorry, i cannot treat you, you first have to find a way to pay me first, then i will consider treating you..."

that's the crime.

PS: of course you will never hear it that way, the answer is always buttered up to cover the greed.
So, are you saying it should be illegal for a doctor to not treat someone? Are you saying that a doctor must, by law, treat someone who is sick without having any say in what his compensation should be for working?

Last time the law told someone they had to do a certain job without any say in their wages we called it slavery.

And that is something you will never hear any Democrat say. Forcing someone to work without an agreed upon compensation is wrong. Plain and simple. If the government told me I had to do my job because the products I produce are the right of my client and I am trained for the job, but I couldn't discuss my pay first, I would walk out the door. Even if they chained me to my desk, I would refuse to work under those conditions, and I refuse to ever ask another person to do that, no matter what.

Liberty or death. If I am in a life or death situation and my life depended on the loss of someone else's liberty I would willingly choose my own death.
 
Voted Yes and For the Bill to pass...


Better try a new formula than to reuse what is not working for everyone.
Nothing is perfect, certainly not the current health care system which is exclusive only to those have the means to pay.

I say give it a try!

+1

No one can ever see the outcome until they try. I mean if you look at it this way, they thought that the stimulus package was a waste. Believe ot or not, from where I live its working! I see a lot of construction being done in my commute. More highways= more jobs! A tractor store is being built along with a new car dealership. More buildings= more jobs! More jobs= more business. I went through a road. Used to be full of forsets. After obama, all I see is Red lobster, best buy, sonic's, boarders, Five guys burgers and fries, pet smart, olive garden, Lowes, red robin (yum!), and a lone star resturant. So if this happened from stimulus. With health care reform, who knows what wonders it may pull.

I PITY THOSE RACISTS WHO SPIT ON HEALTH CARE REFORM VOTERS
 
We've had a lot businesses start showing up on the outskirts of Dallas as well, as far as Rowlett even along with the new DART stations & GWB Tollway extension.

But, all of this was happening well before the stimulus package & I blame it more on lowered costs of living in Dallas & high desirability of people wanting to live here on a lot of open land. For me, this is just our economy in the south getting back on its feet from the recession.
 
The USA health system is one of the worst in the world, I don't know how is this new system, but I'm sure it's better than the current.
I read that about 50 million people don't have health insurance, How can that happen in a first world country?

PS: This week I'll watch Sicko, seems an interesting movie.
 
The USA health system is one of the worst in the world, I don't know how is this new system, but I'm sure it's better than the current.
I read that about 50 million people don't have health insurance, How can that happen in a first world country?

PS: This week I'll watch Sicko, seems an interesting movie.
At least the people without health insurance aren't being fined for not doing so. If I was uninsured, I'd rather have the current system than be told I need to pay $1,000+ for not having any.
 
The USA health system is one of the worst in the world, I don't know how is this new system, but I'm sure it's better than the current.

It's exactly the same, only with poor people being fined $800.

PS: This week I'll watch Sicko, seems an interesting movie.

Just don't expect to see fair, unbiased reporting from that waste of space.

Lancia_stratos
I PITY THOSE RACISTS WHO SPIT ON HEALTH CARE REFORM VOTERS

Gross, yes. Racist?
 
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I'm starting to see the whole issue with the Constitutional slant. What I'm still struggling to grasp is the socialism aspect. Why is this so wrong?

I mean, it's not like there isn't other aspects of the American society that isn't socialist; the pensions for one.

I think the line that is trying to be drawn through what should and should not be expected by all is an issue of basic human rights.

Yes there is an element of the rich paying for the poor but seriously, is a few bucks here or there mean more than helping your country, your society?
 
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