Did PD Change Demographic?

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Debris9uk
Let me start of by saying I've been playing Gran Turismo since the first game, although I don't remember much seeing as I was only a nipper at the time at the age of 11. I love them and have enjoyed the progression of the series as far as challenge and simulation goes. I played a fair bit of 2 and 3 as well with my friends, but only ever split-screen racing (those were the days!). The first one I took seriously was GT4.

Now I realise this is subjective but from what I can remember, GT3 was fairly easy (I played about half the career and won most events without too much bother), GT4 more difficult and 5 the hardest one yet.

Gran Turismo has always been, as far as I'm aware, focused on realism whilst at the same time being playable and completable by even the most casual of gamer. But as time has gone on and as the series has grown, a lot of the casual gamers that played the earlier games have grown into more hardcore drivers; they're more capable and expect more realism from GT and so the game gets more and more difficult and challenging to cater to these people.

This may have left some of the casual gamers behind. GT5, for example, is the most challenging GT I have played. I know many people who have played since at least the third game but have yet to complete everything in 5, let alone gold everything. I also know some who have got gold on everything in 5 and were expecting an enormous challenge with the next one and they lead me to my next point.

GT6 is a lot easier and a lot less challenging than recent games in the series. It's not without challenge but a good case in point would be the comparison between the Sebastian Vettel challenges in GT5 and GT6 and the fact that SRF is forced on in some other events.

In addition, in 6 with the Red Bull series you can cut corners and use the AI as mobile brakes to get gold if you so desire without fear of penalty.

Gold on the licenses too have been said to be surprisingly easy to obtain in some cases.

The AI :rolleyes:...

And for the first time I can remember there's a mandatory tutorial at the start of the game.

All this (and more) makes me think Kaz and the team realised they weren't too focused on the beginner or casual gamer any more. GT had become to difficult. They shifted demographic to a new generation of gamers to repeat the cycle, to make GT even more accessible to a new generation of 11 year olds like me when the first game came out.

Only problem is those of us who find this game too easy have to artificially make it harder and more fun for ourselves by racing on comfort tyres instead of slicks, for example.

So my question(s) is/are: Do you think PD changed demographic or do you think there is another explanation? Do you have other thoughts on the difficulty of GT6? I'd love to hear the community's thoughts on this.

TL;DR - GT has got more challenging over the years but GT6 has taken a step backwards regarding this. Thoughts?
 
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"GT5, for example, is the most challenging GT I have played" Well, that's the first time I've heard an experienced Gran Turismo enthusiast say that. In all seriousness though, yes Gran Turismo is now stepping away from it's hardcore fanbase and looking to grab in more casuals. Unfortunately, it seems that the casuals are satisfied with the Moon missions and long delays with the updates...
Challenging as far as getting Gold in every event, yes I think so. I know what you mean though.

It makes sense to attract newcomers to the series but I feel the experienced players have been moved aside somewhat. Would be nice if PD could cater to both types.
 
I understand your entire post because I started playing since the first chapter and I was a child (maybe the same age of you)
The easy aspect of the game disappears when you race online with other good drivers: online, you have to work hard to win and you can get the challenge you want

I'd love to see an option to tune the difficulty of the AI in the career, like in many other racing games.
But I think that it will be possible in the future chapters, when I hope they will improve the AI by using all the hardware resources of PS4 and by deeply rebuild the scripts.
 
You know, for some reason I thought of GT6 as a game that could make the wait for the PS4 title much less painful and for Polyphony to get used to how the online works and how to communicate to the Gran Turismo community (Which to be honest they're not doing such a good job on that lol). I expect Gran Turismo 7 to be much better than GT6 in terms of A.I., Sound, Graphics, Gameplay, and most importantly for you, difficulty.
I thought so to, it does indeed fill the time though. Updates will make that better with more to do. 7 will be great I have no doubt but I still worry it will lack the challenge of games gone by.

@GattigerPlay my experience with GT6 has been marred by a poor internet connection. I've yet to fully experience a competitive online lobby. I'm moving house soon though so maybe I'll have a better connection there and can have a go at some tough competition.
 
GT has always been a great game in every way imaginable suitable to the genre for me. The only way Gt games could be improved would be with more content. Often there are easy shortcuts or tactics to winning but I never used these until GT5 and it was much harder to risk your position in some races in the earlier GT's.

I would say licences have gotten easier leading upto GT5 from GT1. But GT always starts off easy and gradually gets harder except for GT6. You just have adjust to the feel of GT1/2 GT3/4 GT5/6 and youll be able to learn to become a better racer. Just look at the contents of the all the first 5 games to see how it can easily become hard because of the competition and length of the races. Even if you can guarantee a win with your car you still have to push yourself or find the time to complete endgame races. But there have always been some or many races that you cannot guarantee a win just by your choice of car.

I think back to previous GT's and majority of the races are easy enough with fewer difficult races and challenges. With the GT's pre GT5 its almost just learning to handle the cars breaks and turning. I think I do also agree that 5 was the hardest game just because of the amount of content and all the different styles of driving throughout them. GT5 is the biggest GT and has the most variations of challenges and car physics to master. GT5 has a fair amount of beginner gameplay but also has alot of difficult races comparing to the previous GT's just because they had less overall.


I hope they bring back the real challenges in GT7 to prolong gameplay and push my abilities and concentration.
 
From GT1 - GT3 the GT-mode/Life contained just of A-spec races and licenses. The A-spec races was fairly easy (if I remember correctly). It was also fairly easy to at least get bronze in the licenses. Golding them was a challenge.

GT4 had the same but it introduced the mission races also. I think the difficulty level was about the same as the previous titles concerning a-spec and the licenses, but the mission races was hard.

I think from GT5, already PD lowered the level of difficulty. All the licenses and mission races had SRF forced on.
Although it was the first GT game that I didn´t complete.
Mainly because of horrible exp. points. It took me two years to get to level 40 :crazy:. And by then I had given up on completing the endurance races, completed only the shortest ones. Totally skipped B-spec (boring), skipped all the X-1 missions.

And it seems that PD, with GT6, has lowered the difficulty even more. One of the reason for this is to catch the "casual" gamers in to the series.
It might also have to do with the trend of console games in general. I feel that single player campaigns of most PS3-, Xbox360 games have become much easier and shorter. The online part have taken over the focus of the developers.

My hope for future GTs (GT7) is that PD makes it a little more challenging. Introduce a slider for changing AI or difficulty for the A-spec for example. :)
 
You know, for some reason I thought of GT6 as a game that could make the wait for the PS4 title much less painful and for Polyphony to get used to how the online works and how to communicate to the Gran Turismo community (Which to be honest they're not doing such a good job on that lol). I expect Gran Turismo 7 to be much better than GT6 in terms of A.I., Sound, Graphics, Gameplay, and most importantly for you, difficulty.

I honestly don't have the faith you have. Apart from graphics all these things could already have been done better in GT6. It is not really due to the limitations of the PS3 but due to PD's choices. Unfortunately, I have a feeling these choices won't look much different in the next GT.
 
You know, for some reason I thought of GT6 as a game that could make the wait for the PS4 title much less painful and for Polyphony to get used to how the online works and how to communicate to the Gran Turismo community (Which to be honest they're not doing such a good job on that lol). I expect Gran Turismo 7 to be much better than GT6 in terms of A.I., Sound, Graphics, Gameplay, and most importantly for you, difficulty.
I expected GT6 to be much better than GT5, It isnt and i now expect the same staleness and lack of improvement for GT7
 
However GT7 turns out I just hope it somehow has something for newcomers and experienced players alike. As has been said in other threads; more customisation is key.

If PD are indeed targeting a new audience they need to remember the people who have been playing the series for a while too. We're still playing and we want different things to those who are playing for the first time.

If I'd never played the GT series before 6 I'd probably think it was a great game. Fairly challenging for a driving game (I admit the kart races do offer a challenge, although less so with 1.05). A bit limited content-wise but decent enough and with more content coming at some point to remedy that. And so I would buy 7.

But I have played it before and I find that 6 is missing that certain je ne sais quois that others had. Plus that challenge as I've mentioned before. I can live with the other faults for the time being.

I fondly look back on the day I got 100% completion with 4. It was tough and took a fair while to do. And when I finally got gold in the licences and the AMG challenges in 5. When I got 100% completion with GT6 all I thought was "🤬 me that was quick!"

I'm more than likely going to wait to hear some reviews about the next one before I buy it. I've never done that before. I've always anticipated the release of a new Gran Turismo like a kid on Christmas Eve and always got hold of my copy within a day or two of release. Sorry Kazunori-san, I've lost some faith.

Surely myself, and others like me, represent a significant proportion of people who buy GT. Have so many of us grown up and stopped playing racing games that we're no longer important?
 
Nope, the target audience is still the same. But we got 15 years older :)
Well yes, but still GT6 is a step back compared to GT5 in terms of difficulty catering to a more casual gamer.

And on top of that we are (very very very very very) very experienced users ....
maybe its unfair of us to assume it will be more challenging with every new release ?
 
What's interesting is that PD dumbed down the gameplay in GT6 to appeal to the masses, yet the masses aren't buying the game in their masses, & now it's on sale for £14.99 on Zavi just 3 months after release. I think Kazunori San & PD have severely underestimated the sophistication of casual gamers, not to mention their core market of loyal GT fans.
 
VBR
What's interesting is that PD dumbed down GT6's gameplay to appeal to the masses, yet the masses aren't buying the game in their masses, & now it's on sale for £14.99 on Zavi. I think Kazunori San & PD have severely underestimated the sophistication of casual gamers, not to mention their core market of loyal GT fans.

Are the casual gamers buying other racing games? Recent charts suggest they aren't.

Should they add bananas, to compete with Mario kart?

Zavi are not PD or Sony, by the way. And that Zavi page says GT6 has sold out. Click the reviews link - maybe that's what casual gamers think of it...
 
A friend of mine came round, you could say he is a casual gamer (family man with a Wii). He did a race in Arcade mode in beginners, after spinning out & falling way behind he caught the pack & won. He then said, in a very disappointed tone of voice, "Oh...they let me win." I said in reply, "Yes, that's what they do in this game, they just slow down & let you win." He was very disappointed.

My point is this; even casual gamers are aware of when they're being patronized, & this spoils the game for them too. Like I said, I think PD have underestimated the sophistication of casual gamers & what they want from a racing game. How successful would a cycle shop be if all their adult bikes came with stabilizers welded onto them? Yet this is exactly the approach PD are taking, & their patronization of adult gamers is one of the things that's driving people away from the GT series.

I'm guessing that many casual gamers aren't buying the game based on reading reviews of it first. As for bananas; I have no idea what your point is, or how it relates to my post which you quoted.
 
VBR
A friend of mine came round, you could say he is a casual gamer (family man with a Wii). He did a race in Arcade mode in beginners, after spinning out & falling way behind he caught the pack & won. He then said, in a very disappointed tone of voice, "Oh...they let me win." I said in reply, "Yes, that's what they do in this game, they just slow down & let you win." He was very disappointed.

Cool story. I guess we will just have to take your word for it. It's not like anyone else has casual gamer friends who can't even do a clean lap with all aids off, let alone win a race.

VBR
My point is this; even casual gamers are aware of when they're being patronized, & this spoils the game for them too. Like I said, I think PD have underestimated the sophistication of casual gamers & what they want from a racing game. How successful would a cycle shop be if all their adult bikes came with stabilizers welded onto them? Yet this is exactly the approach PD are taking, & their patronization of adult gamers is one of the things that's driving people away from the GT series.

I'm guessing that many casual gamers aren't buying the game based on reading reviews of it first. As for bananas, I have no idea what your point is, or how it relates to my post which you quoted.

Bananas relate to mario kart, the most successful 'racing' game. The context is, you are talking about sales and casual gamers. Put two and two together = more casual gamers buy mariokart more than any other racing game.

Not all adults feel they are being patronized either. It's no stretch to suggest that your post is patronizing towards anyone that enjoys GT6.
 
@jimipitbull - Seriously! When the AI slow down & hand you the win, you don't feel patronized? When SRF is forced on you in an event that's already easy, you don't feel patronized? WOW! I suppose when rubens barrichello slowed down to let Schumacher past, you were one of the handful of people who though it was an awesome move. :p :lol:
 
There's plenty of other threads where people have trouble with GT6 races


Nobody has trouble with the races in GT6, as GT6 has no actual racing in it. What people have trouble with is the rubber banding, which tries (& fails) to create the illusion of racing.
 
I think casual gamers are extinct since Wii ... else WiiU would have been a massive success ...
So Kaz would be better of listening to his hard core fans ... and then let them convince the grey masses ...


Edit : The trouble with the post mentioned above (by @jimipitbull ) is that people expect to gold a race in one try ... just like my 10 year old ...
 
VBR
Nobody has trouble with the races in GT6, as GT6 has no actual racing in it. What people have trouble with is the rubber banding, which tries (& fails) to create the illusion of racing.

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Somehow i'm confident you knew what he meant but it seams defending PD and GT6 is your full time job!

Rubbish. Let's look at the context, it was a direct reply to this.

If you have a one size-fits-all game like GT6 is at the moment then yes. This is were we need options to customize our game experience.

So I listed some customisation options. Can you explain how you interpret that as defending PD and GT6?

Are you inferring that pyrates is attacking PD and GT6 in his post?
 
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