Differences in F-1 Cars

[TAFJonathan]

Hey. Curious how much better the more "exclusive" F-1 cars (F-686, F/094S) are than the plain ol F/090S. What are the differences?

 

[Concept]

I have the F094/S and the F090/S and only thing I have noticed is that the F090/S without any changes too it barely hits 200 while the F094/S can hit about 215+ without a problem.

 

[TAFJonathan]

By F/090S hits 223.

711 HP.

 

[Supra897]

There are major differences. For instance the F090/S has the best handling. The F094/H has the best performance, except for handling, grip, and the tires wear out too fast. The F094/s is the best all around. Great performance, good handling, and nice tire longetivity.

 

[BrianCNorton]

Yeah, I'm gonna have to go ahead and uh,
disagree with you there.

As time marches on, aerodynamics and engines get better and better. This fact is reflected in these cars quite well. The cars handle progressively better the later model they are. The big ass turbo engines that deliver big horsepower are actually counterproductive. It takes so long for the turbines to spool up that your car just wont have the throttle response you need to do the amazing driving that is possible. They are good cars, but flawed in that respect. They are more suitable for ovals than street courses. Thats why IRL uses turbo engines and cart and f1 use natural aspiration. There is much more to a car than how much horsepower it can drop on a dyno. Newer f1=better f1. my 2 cents.

Brian

 

[doubleclutch]

Just a correction, Brian. CART is the one that runs turbos, 2.65 litres, and IRL runs N/A, 3.5 litres. F1 is N/A as you mentioned, although I don't know the displacement; I'm pretty sure they're all v10's, though; I don't think there are any v8 or v12 teams anymore. CART IS supposed to be changing to an as-yet-unspec'd 3.5 N/A in 2003, though. That decision is proving highly unpopular amongst the hardcore CART fans, though. Besides, CART appears to be losing all engine manufacturers after 2002, so it doesn't really matter, does it?

 

[TAFJonathan]

We're drifting off topic--- I just wanna know what the general consensus is as to which is best. Maybe I should make a poll or something.

 

[Rice Rocketeer]

Originally posted by BrianCNorton
Yeah, I'm gonna have to go ahead and uh,
disagree with you there.

As time marches on, aerodynamics and engines get better and better. This fact is reflected in these cars quite well. The cars handle progressively better the later model they are. The big ass turbo engines that deliver big horsepower are actually counterproductive. It takes so long for the turbines to spool up that your car just wont have the throttle response you need to do the amazing driving that is possible. They are good cars, but flawed in that respect. They are more suitable for ovals than street courses. Thats why IRL uses turbo engines and cart and f1 use natural aspiration. There is much more to a car than how much horsepower it can drop on a dyno. Newer f1=better f1. my 2 cents.

Brian

newer F1 doesn't always lead to a better F1 brian....

i have a F090/s that i used to beat the Formula GT Champ...

it all depends on driving skill when it comes to F1 racing...because of the limitations and restrictions that have been placed on the car....

if ya drag raced a couple F1s they would all get the same times..or somewhere near (+/- a few seconds)....i have all the F1s and they all handle the same way as the others and the speed diff. is so little that u can't even tell....

 

[Zero]

F094/S and H are the best, they are the best in proformance, I think they handle better than the rest. I have the F686/m and it does have the fastest speed, but 2 me it handles as good as the 87/S. The 90/S is only good for its tire wear, and the 87 is quicker for me in the 0-400m times. I didnt get a pic of it, sorry!

 

[esg]

F1 = V10, 3.0 Liter, 40 valves, N/A, semi-automatic gear, traction control, no slick tyres, carbon brakes, no ground effect.

http://www.forix.com

 

[polyphony 001]

it's pretty simple in our PAL version - Polyphony 001 (F094/s????) is the daddy.

 

[BrianCNorton]

Originally posted by doubleclutch
Just a correction, Brian. CART is the one that runs turbos, 2.65 litres, and IRL runs N/A, 3.5 litres. F1 is N/A as you mentioned, although I don't know the displacement; I'm pretty sure they're all v10's, though; I don't think there are any v8 or v12 teams anymore.

My mistake, you are correct

Originally posted by Dumbass
newer F1 doesn't always lead to a better F1 brian....
i have a F090/s that i used to beat the Formula GT Champ...
it all depends on driving skill when it comes to F1 racing...because of the limitations and restrictions that have been placed on the car....

So basically what you are saying is that F1 teams make their cars WORSE over time? I dont buy that. F1 cars are not like other race series. All the cars are NOT the same. There are a bunch of restrictions, but that dosent stop Ferrari from spending THREE HUNDRED MILLION on f1 development every year. They have a wind tunnel running 365 days a year. They do mad ammounts of computer simulations. They do in fact get something for their money, like a series championship. This is the reason that there is a triumviurate(sp?) of racing teams at the top of F1 with almost no challenge from any others. It has a lot to do with drivers, but it also has a lot to do with manufacturers. Its not IRL where all bodies come from 1 source and you get a choice of two engines, its not NASCAR where the cars are restricted as to everything they can do. Schumacher is a fine driver, no doubt, but he also has the support of a dedicated team.

if ya drag raced a couple F1s they would all get the same times..or somewhere near (+/- a few seconds)....i have all the F1s and they all handle the same way as the others and the speed diff. is so little that u can't even tell....

I don know how you drive, but I think you'd be suprised if you ran an enduro race with two different f1s. The time difference is amazing. The speed difference is slight, but noticeable, and the turbo lag is most certainly apparent. The big difference is that these cars DEFINITELY dont handle the same. Run an enduro in a 686 and a 094 and see for yourself.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by polyphony 001
it's pretty simple in our PAL version - Polyphony 001 (F094/s????) is the daddy.

I think it was vat_man but I dont quite remember, he said that the 001 is the 1995 spec Williams due to the non-slanted front nose of the 94. The 001 does not have a slanted nose like the F094/S.

 

[Zero]

Brian and Rice you 2 need to stop! Seriously me and Brian had our little "fight" but we ended that like men.

Stealth that was an unessisary (sp) post!

 

[Jordan]

Brian and Rice Rocketeer,

I really don't enjoy deleting posts, so don't make me have to do it again. Also, make sure there's a valid point to argue over before "getting into it". Thanks!

 

[Concept]

Originally posted by Jordan
Brian and Rice Rocketeer,

I really don't enjoy deleting posts, so don't make me have to do it again. Also, make sure there's a valid point to argue over before "getting into it". Thanks!

OUCH! Busted by the big man himself. That has to suck! I hope that never happens to me.


BTW.......I still like my F090/S even though it is not the best. I love its paint job! (White w/ Blue trim)

 

[Schumy]

Originally posted by esg
F1 = V10, 3.0 Liter, 40 valves, N/A, semi-automatic gear, traction control, no slick tyres, carbon brakes, no ground effect.

http://www.forix.com

actually team jaguar runs a v12 not that I think they are any good.......any team with FORD engineering in F1 is going nowhere

 

[Schumy]

Originally posted by BrianCNorton



My mistake, you are correct



So basically what you are saying is that F1 teams make their cars WORSE over time? I dont buy that. F1 cars are not like other race series. All the cars are NOT the same. There are a bunch of restrictions, but that dosent stop Ferrari from spending THREE HUNDRED MILLION on f1 development every year. They have a wind tunnel running 365 days a year. They do mad ammounts of computer simulations. They do in fact get something for their money, like a series championship. This is the reason that there is a triumviurate(sp?) of racing teams at the top of F1 with almost no challenge from any others. It has a lot to do with drivers, but it also has a lot to do with manufacturers. Its not IRL where all bodies come from 1 source and you get a choice of two engines, its not NASCAR where the cars are restricted as to everything they can do. Schumacher is a fine driver, no doubt, but he also has the support of a dedicated team.



I don know how you drive, but I think you'd be suprised if you ran an enduro race with two different f1s. The time difference is amazing. The speed difference is slight, but noticeable, and the turbo lag is most certainly apparent. The big difference is that these cars DEFINITELY dont handle the same. Run an enduro in a 686 and a 094 and see for yourself.

I agree with you totally Brian

F1 is the most elite and sophisticated form of racing in the world.
People don't even get to see what teams like Ferrari and BMW are truly capable of because even F1 has tight resrictions
teams like ferrari have to add over 80kg of balliss to their cars because they are so light ....even stricter downforce settings .......tires that have to be grooved .....even the new tires would be crazy combining the revolutionary compounds with a slick tire

Ultimately, F1 is the best and regardless to what people may think, the cars improve every year even with new resrictions .....that's the beauty of formula 1

 

[vat_man]

Originally posted by Schumy


actually team jaguar runs a v12 not that I think they are any good.......any team with FORD engineering in F1 is going nowhere

Jeez Zerocool you're making me blush....

Schumy, Jag run a V10 - it's a new version of the Ford Cosworth V10.

Mate - if Ferrari are running a V10....

Seriously though, there has been some talk of someone building a 12, most notably Honda, but there are big packaging issues - not so much the engine, but radiator and cooling packing...

 

[Schumy]

Originally posted by vat_man


Jeez Zerocool you're making me blush....

Schumy, Jag run a V10 - it's a new version of the Ford Cosworth V10.

Mate - if Ferrari are running a V10....

Seriously though, there has been some talk of someone building a 12, most notably Honda, but there are big packaging issues - not so much the engine, but radiator and cooling packing...

Sorry, my mistake....unreliable sources.....but jaguar is still garbage with FORD backing them up:spam:

 

[LoudMusic]

Originally posted by Schumy


Sorry, my mistake....unreliable sources.....but jaguar is still garbage with FORD backing them up:spam:

Hey now, why are you guys dogging the Ford? At least they're consistant (:

~LoudMusic

 

[vat_man]

Originally posted by LoudMusic


Hey now, why are you guys dogging the Ford? At least they're consistant (:

~LoudMusic

I actually think the Ford's one of the better motors - just the Jaguar chassis a barker.

It'll be interesting to see how the Arrows goes next year with the Cossie in it - it's been a neat little package in search of a decent engine the last couple of years.

Actually, you should admire Ford in F1 - they've been a very solid supporter of the series.

 

[Schumy]

Originally posted by LoudMusic


Hey now, why are you guys dogging the Ford? At least they're consistant (:

~LoudMusic

Consistently garbage

 

[vat_man]

Well, you might want to look into the history of the old DFR V8 and the Jim Clark days, and when it was pretty well the only motor aside from Ferrari before going further down that road.

And they did win a championship in '94 (even though I'm convinced they were cheating).

 

[Schumy]

Originally posted by vat_man


I actually think the Ford's one of the better motors - just the Jaguar chassis a barker.

It'll be interesting to see how the Arrows goes next year with the Cossie in it - it's been a neat little package in search of a decent engine the last couple of years.

Actually, you should admire Ford in F1 - they've been a very solid supporter of the series.

better motors?.......the only team with a more worthless engine is Minardi........but I'll agree on the chassis....it's crap......i believe it's a REYNARD!........U.S. engineering and F1 don't mix.....sorry U.S. ..stick to NASCAR and the DRAG STRIPS

 

[vat_man]

Originally posted by Schumy


better motors?.......the only team with a more worthless engine is Minardi........but I'll agree on the chassis....it's crap......i believe it's a REYNARD!........U.S. engineering and F1 don't mix.....sorry U.S. ..stick to NASCAR and the DRAG STRIPS

Well, the Jag was usually a pretty solid performer in the speed traps, so you can only base your assumptions around that. I think the consensus was it was on a par with the Honda last year.

We'll get a better idea once we see how the Arrows goes. If they show a substantial performance increase then we know the motor's okay.

I don't know where you're getting information, but Reynard put together the BAR car - the Jaguar was done in-house. Remember that Jaguar is the old Stewart team, which was itself the old Paul Stewart Formula 3000 team.

 

[vat_man]

Originally posted by Schumy


better motors?.......the only team with a more worthless engine is Minardi........but I'll agree on the chassis....it's crap......i believe it's a REYNARD!........U.S. engineering and F1 don't mix.....sorry U.S. ..stick to NASCAR and the DRAG STRIPS

Ironically Minardi run an older spec Ford motor.

I'm sensing some real bitterness Schumy. What happened - did a Ford run over your dog? Let it go, man!

 

[GilesGuthrie]

All F1 teams use V10 engines after they agreed to stick with that format. The engine manufacturers want to continue to develop the V10 format, and it would cost them a whole heap were someone to come up with a new format, and then they have to go and develop for that new format - witness the expense incurred by Ferrari, Ford et al when Honda and Renault came out with the V10 in the early 90s, or when Renault came out with the first turbo cars in the 80s.

Rice Rocketeer is correct when he says that newer does not always mean better, principally because there's periodically a major shift in rules that slows the cars down, so the 93 cars (active) were quicker than the 94 cars (active banned), then in 95, the engines were reduced from 3.5L to 3L, so slower again. Then in 97 (I think) you had the narrow-track regulations, where 20cm got cut out of the suspension arms, etc etc. These regs always slow the cars down initially, but then the engineers get it back in the end, because they're so goddamned clever!

I may well be wrong on this, but the Polyphony001 looks strikingly like the 1994 Benetton, with the torpedo nose, and the very-close-set front wing pillars. The hole in the back of the airbox gives it away as a post-May 94, pre-1995 car because the FIA demanded holes in the airbox to reduce intake pressure, but in '95 they'd gone down to 3L. The '94 Williams had a squarer-section nose, because that vintage car was designed by Adrian Newey, who was using a wide aperture between the wing supports, coupled with a flat upper nose section, and a W-shaped under-nose section to create a venturi between the front wheels. It took him until 1998 to get it right though! Also, the Williams of that year was using rear-wing sub-elements (the sections of wing just above the chassis mounting) that were curved up in a sort-of hump-back-bridge profile, whereas the Benetton had straight sub-elements.

The 1994 Benetton did win the championship amidst allegations of cheating, particularly concerning the concealment of launch/traction control software in the ECU. It was a theme that never went away. Powered by a Ford V8 engine, it had great driveability, compared to the higher (but narrower) power bands of the Ferrari V12 and the Renault V10. Renault got the V10 right during 94, and Benetton duly moved to it. Anyone who claims the 94 Ford V8 was a s**t engine obviously has forgotten the time Michael Schumacher came second at Barcelona, stuck in 5th gear...

I'll put my anorak away now!

 

[vat_man]

Originally posted by GilesGuthrie
The 1994 Benetton did win the championship amidst allegations of cheating, particularly concerning the concealment of launch/traction control software in the ECU. It was a theme that never went away.

I'll put my anorak away now!

Two points -
- despite clear warnings from the FIA to remove traction control software from ECUs (under threat of banning), the Benettons were caught with it - activated via a complicated series of actions involving the gear paddles and switches on the steering wheel
- see my avatar! The FIA warned in the off-season that anyone caught tampering with the fuel equipment would be banned. Benetton's fiddling resulted in Verstappen's fire at Hockenheim, and what action was there? Benetton fired Tom Walkinshaw, who was leaving anyway!!!!

I'm still very bitter about that season, and to me it taints Schumacher's years at Benetton. He is a brilliant driver, but that stain...

 

[Schumy]

Originally posted by GilesGuthrie
All F1 teams use V10 engines after they agreed to stick with that format. The engine manufacturers want to continue to develop the V10 format, and it would cost them a whole heap were someone to come up with a new format, and then they have to go and develop for that new format - witness the expense incurred by Ferrari, Ford et al when Honda and Renault came out with the V10 in the early 90s, or when Renault came out with the first turbo cars in the 80s.

Rice Rocketeer is correct when he says that newer does not always mean better, principally because there's periodically a major shift in rules that slows the cars down, so the 93 cars (active) were quicker than the 94 cars (active banned), then in 95, the engines were reduced from 3.5L to 3L, so slower again. Then in 97 (I think) you had the narrow-track regulations, where 20cm got cut out of the suspension arms, etc etc. These regs always slow the cars down initially, but then the engineers get it back in the end, because they're so goddamned clever!

I may well be wrong on this, but the Polyphony001 looks strikingly like the 1994 Benetton, with the torpedo nose, and the very-close-set front wing pillars. The hole in the back of the airbox gives it away as a post-May 94, pre-1995 car because the FIA demanded holes in the airbox to reduce intake pressure, but in '95 they'd gone down to 3L. The '94 Williams had a squarer-section nose, because that vintage car was designed by Adrian Newey, who was using a wide aperture between the wing supports, coupled with a flat upper nose section, and a W-shaped under-nose section to create a venturi between the front wheels. It took him until 1998 to get it right though! Also, the Williams of that year was using rear-wing sub-elements (the sections of wing just above the chassis mounting) that were curved up in a sort-of hump-back-bridge profile, whereas the Benetton had straight sub-elements.

The 1994 Benetton did win the championship amidst allegations of cheating, particularly concerning the concealment of launch/traction control software in the ECU. It was a theme that never went away. Powered by a Ford V8 engine, it had great driveability, compared to the higher (but narrower) power bands of the Ferrari V12 and the Renault V10. Renault got the V10 right during 94, and Benetton duly moved to it. Anyone who claims the 94 Ford V8 was a s**t engine obviously has forgotten the time Michael Schumacher came second at Barcelona, stuck in 5th gear...

I'll put my anorak away now!

quite agreeable....you definitely know your stuff