Difficulty Transitioning from GT6 to Sport

985
Singapore
Singapore
XSquareStickIt
Hello. Just a quick question to see if I'm alone in my struggles to transition from GT6 to Sport, so that I can form a better informed opinion on the game. Also, please send help :lol:

I'm an avid racer in GT6 with a G29, though I'm by no means good. I've had a driving license in real life for less than a year and I've only driven on city streets with normal family cars. Where I live, cars are stupid expensive, and there is actually nowhere in this small country we can legally go over 90km/h, so all of my opinion on performance cars has come from the main numbered GT series, of which I've only missed out on 3 and 4.

GT Sport is the first game I'm having immense struggle trying to learn how to drive. Heck, I can't even bring a stock car around Tokyo East Loop without hitting any walls in spite of having learned the layout of the track by now, let alone race anyone.

For starters, I feel that the wheel gives me way too little information. Under hard braking, I don't get a very good sense of the friction circle for the front tyres; in GT6, when your front tyres hit the limit of their grip under trail braking, I'd feel my wheel hit a "wall" in its willingness to steer the car. In GTS, that information simply isn't presented to me, and I'm left to guess how much grip the front tyres have under hard braking and trail braking. There are audio cues in the tyres starting to squeal and slip, yes, but they're so drowned out and muted most of the time, it's hard to catch, especially above all the samey, exaggerated gearbox whining that's in most of the cars in the game. Also because the tyres sound like garbage in this game. This lack of information feedback makes it very hard to learn a car's limits, and I find that I could never really "know" a car, or get into a "zone" where you're one with the machine and slice a precise racing line.

It's not just under braking, either. When accelerating out of a corner in RWD cars, I don't know how much power I can apply before the rear starts to break out. In GT6, when a RWD car is about to break its rear end out when accelerating and turning at the same time, the wheel would suddenly lighten up, simply because the front tyres aren't struggling too hard to turn the front end since the rear is sort of doing that for the front. In GTS, again, I don't feel this AT ALL. I've only visual cues and only very slight, if any, audio cues to my car breaking loose on corner exit. Sometimes even when I see my car start going sideways, I instinctively still hold the gas because I don't feel 🤬 from my wheel. This is especially awful in those tight, low second gear hairpins, where a car can go from understeer to butt first into a safety barrier in half a second, especially the racing machines that make up most of the game's car roster.

In fact, the rear tyres of all RWD cars strike me as weird. I don't remember needing TCS that often in racing cars in GT6. That's not to say you can't slide them, but the slides were always within manageable levels. In the first driving school tests I was spinning the rear tyres of the Mazda Roadster for what, four whole seconds? And I barely heard the tyres screaming from cockpit view. I actually thought the Roadster had the most whack gear ratios until I realised I was short shifting the thing from 1st to 2nd because my wheels are spinning THAT MUCH, and I only found out when I switched to chase view out of curiosity.

In stock cars, the pitching of cars is simply ridiculous. Taking Tokyo Expressway again as an example, I could slam the brakes for an uphill turn and my car would pitch forward SO MUCH that, from the cockpit view, I lose all sight of the walls rapidly approaching me. I personally don't remember stock cars being this sloppy in GT6, even when comparing the closest parallel stock cars in both games, the Lan Evo X. I've tried everything from the Mazda Roadster to the Subaru Impreza, and the Imprezas in GT6 always made me feel invincible with how compliant yet responsive they are. Yet in GTS everything just feels... sloppy and a mess. Like the pitching and rolling of cars is greatly exaggerated.

Tuning cars in GTS feels odd as well. I can't even seem to change the units of measurements from lbs to kg, and what's all this Hz thing with the spring rates? Why can't I change them? Doesn't Japan use kg/mm all the time with car tuning? In GT6 your power and mass units would change depending on the language you set your PS3, and even with Eng UK as my language in PS4 I'm still getting pounds with no way to change it to a unit I readily understand. As far as I can figure out I can't seem to double the spring rates on my Mazda Roadster (stock is 1.3Hz, adjustible up to 2), when in GT6 I often find myself more than tripling the spring rates on my cars when I tune them. Heck, just look at some of the tuner cars from Mine's or RE Amemiya in GT6 and compare their cars to stock counterparts; it's usually more than tripled, maybe even quadrupled. Why can't I do this in GTS? Damper and Anti Roll Bar stiffness are still arbitrary levels with no real units attached to them, and for some dog 🤬 reason stock cars still come default with a .6 degree toe in angle. What was this about Kaz saying that driving is easy and games failing to convey that is evidence of the games doing something wrong? Yet you can't trust me to keep a Roadster from oversteering? What if the stock cars come with a factory toe angle? Why would you rob this experience and knowledge from me? At least now you don't have to shell out credits to buy an aftermarket suspension to revert back to stock alignment settings, so I guess there's that.

ABS on cars also seem less adjustible and more ambiguous. We used to have a numerical slider on GT6 for ABS sensitivity (though honestly most cars worked just fine on the default 1 and I've never seen anyone need to go over 4). Now it's just "default", "weak", "strong", or "off". This is also something I don't get. Yes, aftermarket brakes aren't a thing in GTS anymore, which makes tweaking with ABS sensitivity levels quite irrelevant. But I've actually had to buy aftermarket racing brake kits in GT6 just to lock up my tyres in GT6 on racing tyres with my RX-7, and having a slider was SUPER essential for testing out how much of my front tyres' friction circle I wanted to use for that. Even if this isn't a feature in GTS, why would you want to remove the option for a potential future patch?

I don't know. Are these changes more realistic? I seem to be the only one struggling to learn the game, so I feel as if I might be missing out on something here. I've tried adjusting the force feedback sensitivity and max torque settings to no end, to no avail. I just could not get the cars to "talk" to me anymore, and it's driving me up the wall. GTS is a game I want to like. I bought a PS4 even before GTS was announced, thinking that GT7 HAS to happen on a PS4. I literally bought a PS3 ONLY for Gran Turismo, and I haven't even ejected my GT6 disc in years. Yes, all GT titles have severe flaws to them, but I've never found myself hating a GT title before. Who cares about FIA partnerships, decal editors and scapes if I can't even 🤬 drive a Roadster properly?
 
626
United Kingdom
Northern Ireland
GTRP_mirial
@XSquareStickIt

I know many are complaining about snap oversteer, but I would go as far to say there is little warning and not much feel for when the rear end is about to reach its limit on RH tyres. I'm not going condemn it because I can't draw any comparison between GTS and other platforms, although I might get AC out of curiosity in the future.

What I would say is, if many are having difficulty, then you have to ask yourself why so many are not having difficulty. At best the top guys are probably no more than good battle hardened karters, and not even professionals, let alone F1 drivers who can get around the problems - what are they doing differently? One of the things that has always been missing from GT, is a good proper driving tutorial on how to drive properly fast. I've read lots of advice from pro drivers to budding amateur drivers, and when it's put into words, it all sounds very complex and rather long winded. I think some one like Lewis Hamilton would do the game a lot of justice if he and PD just put together a quick simple guide to what he does, how he looks at the road etc which would inspire others to do things differently and improve.

A simple fact is, if you're purely relying on the feel of the tyres to solely indicate where the limit is then that is not sufficient warning, and not even in real life because any correction by then will be too delayed. As far as I can tell, the only way to find where the limit is without accurate tyre feedback, is to drive within a reference system with respect to the track itself which allows you to detect the earliest possible warning that the rear end is about to lose grip, which means to be constantly ahead of what the car is doing. It's all about setting up where you want to create the rotation for the car, and to always be looking ahead of where that given point of rotation is.
 
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724
United States
United States
dabz343
@XSquareStickIt

What you thoughtfully described is accurate and applies in some shape and form to all the sim racing games I've experienced, PC and console. Understanding and translating feedback through the wheel/pedals/rig takes time and every sim has its own parameters that can reward you with speed if you are able to perceive the details.

I remember the first time I tried Assetto Corsa, the initial few hours was dedicated to finding the grip and getting proficient at creeping up to the limit. I didn't focus on lap times and stayed away from tuning, just concentrated on building my visual/muscle memory.

To get acclimated to GTS, I spent the first hours in a BMW M4/N300 SH and a Porsche Cayman/Gr.4 RH. Switching back and forth allowed me to sense the upper and lower limits of grip and perhaps more importantly, how to weight transfer, build cornering speed, etc.

If you are into the theory of car dynamics, the Driver University from Scott Mansell is enjoyable - https://driver61.com/uni/
 
5,288
Sick_Cylinder
@XSquareStickIt - how long have you been playing GTS? And how long were you playing GT6?

Some people may transition quickly from one game to another, but for me it takes quite a while - I would say it took me at least 12 hours of practising to get a feel for Project Cars when I switched from GT6. It was quicker transitioning from PC1 to PC2 and also quicker from GT5 to GT6.

I suggest you avoid any tuning and stick with one car on standard settings until you get a good feel for the car - it will suddenly come and after it has start driving other cars on stock settings. If possible stick with tracks that you already know well so that you are only learning the feel of the car and not having to learn a track at the same time.

@mirial and the next poster (dabz) have given some sound advice.

The loud gear whine in race cars is because PD have modelled the sound of straight cut gears - they are used in racing because they are easier to machine, stronger and absorb less power, but they are very noisy so aren't used in production cars.

If you are using a wheel, it should be relatively easy to drive all the cars in a game without using assists such as TCS. I suggest switching them all off (except possibly ABS on 1) - it may take slightly longer to get used to, but the cars will be more communicative without the masking effect of driving aids.

Focus on looking well ahead of the car. Remember slow in, fast out - setting the car up for each corner and never stamp on the brakes - every movement should be delicate and gradual. Braking should be gentle at first to allow weight to transfer, then increase. Stamping on the brakes will just cause them to lock in real life (or activate the ABS). As one of the previous posters said, forget about lap times and gradually build speed focussing instead on getting the best line around the track - it should be possible to get round a track with only minimal movement of the wheel.

Good luck, enjoy and keep practising!
 
626
United Kingdom
Northern Ireland
GTRP_mirial
@dabz343 @Sick Cylinder Funny how a couple of very good posts here have not had much response.......but we try at least to help.

Some good stuff there with regards to the Driving University, but as Scott says, quick drivers have a fluid approach.....which I think only manifests itself after A LOT of practice. I've often mentioned how important it is to learn how to anticipate what the car is going to. You can do all the driving missions and get all the golds you want, but if this piece is missing, then a driver is always going to be at a big disadvantage. If words or pictures or videos can't describe how to do it, then the only way to learn is to drive cars outside a driver's comfort zone with ABS off and perhaps with some rear brake bias and most certainly with a car that is slightly tail-happy on the throttle. Learning in this way will require a lot of practice and persistence because of the number of times the driver will spin, but every now and again they will catch it, and the more they practice, the more they'll catch it.
 
985
Singapore
Singapore
XSquareStickIt
Hi all, thanks for all your very insightful comments, and apologies if my response is slow; I wanted to get as much info and think about them before formulating a reply.

I realise I'm in the minority that has trouble with driving in GTS, which is the whole reason why I made the OP, because I feel as if I'm missing something, or to see if anyone else has the same issues.

What I'm taking away from your replies however, is that these are known issues within the game, but in spite of this people find ways around the issues to still be fast.

To me, the Gran Turismo series has never been a game for me, but more of a simulator. The game doesn't goad you into achieving anything, or require that you even complete its single player campaign. Especially in the PS3 era of GT games, you'd be much better served just racing in Seasonals if you want quick credits to try and tune more cars. In a sense, it's the player that sets their own goals and enjoys the journey achieving said goals. The game gives you all the tools but no direction; you made your own fun. And I'm sure is the case with many others on this forum, driving is fun. Sometimes we drive not to anywhere, not for anything, just... for the sake of driving. Gran Turismo has always been that outlet for me. I daresay it's what made me a petrolhead in the first place.

But when I find it so hard to drive something relatively tame, when the driving experience is inherently flawed, that's when it stops being fun. There's no point in being fast if it isn't fun; I race only because I love driving. There's no point to learning to comply with something I perceive as flawed. Unless, of course, someone with experience with an actual performance car can tell me that GTS' feedback and physics is more realistic than GT6's, thereby proving wrong my perception of GTS' feedback and physics being flawed. That was also one of the questions I posed in the OP.

I realise that GTS is a huge departure from the classic GT formula, but I didn't expect them to mess up the one thing that held the whole experience together: the driving.

@Sick Cylinder I've played GT6 since June 2014, and transitioned to using a wheel around the end of 2015. I've played GTS since the release of the beta to the general public (not a PS+ user here), so I get that I've had way more time to adjust to GT6 than GTS. What I'm trying to say is, it never took me this long to learn how to not hit walls on a circuit, and I feel that something's wrong because of it. I only drive with ABS on default settings, and I'm having trouble even with Nurburgring on Circuit Experience, which is a circuit I think I know pretty well by now.

@mirial You're absolutely correct in that the wheel feedback on its own is insufficient in judging and preventing power oversteer. It's just that I think it's part of a multi faceted message that tells me I need to let off some gas and steering angle, and not having that piece of information messes with my brain and driving. This isn't something that's impossible to learn to correct, but again, this in my opinion makes the driving experience less fun for me, and I find that I leave ridiculous safety margins in both road width used and power input for fear of spinning my car. I love to drive at the limit of my car and always being left to ask myself, "Can this go faster? Can I drive this harder? Am I doing this car justice?", haunts me every safe corner exit I make. And when I'm seemingly ambiguously punished with power oversteer every time I try to find that limit, that's when I turn off my PS4 and try to cool off from the rage.
 
110
United States
Macon, GA
I will say it seems that I have to input more steering in GTS than I did in GT6. GT6 steering feel felt more realistic to me.
 
3,879
United States
Fort Worth/Texas
RacingChamp30
With GTS being on a completely new gaming system with it comes changing of the physics and how the cars handle. I maybe rusty at first when i start playing GTS in a couple months but will get used to it.
 
724
United States
United States
dabz343
Your passion and frustration is coming though loud and clear.

I get the impression that you have the basics of racecraft, thus I'm a bit perplexed that you are overstepping the bounds of a familiar track without understanding your errors. Let's try approach this from another perspective.

If you are choosing to drive GTS with GT6 techniques, this will not produce desired results. When I compare the FFB/Car Physics/Track Design from both games, GTS is more of a sim. Less forgiving on the limit than GT6 and the tracks now incorporate surface variations that begin to impact load/friction/chassis flex. A big improvement in my opinion, but miles away from what will eventually arrive on consoles.

Try to create a baseline by running the same track/car combo on both games. Step back and assess your driving. If you are not varying your inputs, then perhaps your skill in adaptability may be in question. The differences may be subtle or dramatic, but the key is to begin formulating an honest critique of your driving habits.

We all want to go faster. The key is how. Developing your perception of what and why is critical in acquiring new tactics that elevate your skill. Be mindful of thoughts by @mirial and @Sick Cylinder as they represent the incredibly deep layers of challenges and enjoyment that motorsport represent.
 
169
Lithuania
Lithuania
Coming from gt6 cars are better to handle , control, better pushed to limits and they dont kill you. Cars easier to catch from sliding . its not easier or harder gts is just makes you enjoy cars much more and longer. Because you can search for their limits and puch them more. I like that very much.
 

Johnnypenso

Well known double poster
Premium
28,471
Canada
Windsor, Ontario, Canada
Johnnypenso
If you are choosing to drive GTS with GT6 techniques, this will not produce desired results. When I compare the FFB/Car Physics/Track Design from both games, GTS is more of a sim. Less forgiving on the limit than GT6 and the tracks now incorporate surface variations that begin to impact load/friction/chassis flex. A big improvement in my opinion, but miles away from what will eventually arrive on consoles.

Coming from gt6 cars are better to handle , control, better pushed to limits and they dont kill you. Cars easier to catch from sliding . its not easier or harder gts is just makes you enjoy cars much more and longer. Because you can search for their limits and puch them more. I like that very much.
One says GTS is more of a sim because it's harder to catch on the limit (not that that is actually true from an objective point of view). The other says GTS is easier at the limit and more fun as a result. Both can't be true:irked:.
 
169
Lithuania
Lithuania
maybe depend what car to catch and wheel user or controller. i'm controller only user and GT6 is hard to catch. i tested it other day after GTS just to compare. more hp cars like SLS AMG or Camaro or Mustang are more easier to catch in GTS then it was in GT6. in GT6 when car starts to slide you have so small windows to save it still. maybe its just me. but to think that GTS is next level in physics after GT6 would be logical no ?
and forza 4 or 6 apex is even easier to catch and more fun to drive but less character to cars.
 
724
United States
United States
dabz343
One says GTS is more of a sim because it's harder to catch on the limit (not that that is actually true from an objective point of view). The other says GTS is easier at the limit and more fun as a result. Both can't be true:irked:.

Curious to know why you say the challenge of being on the limit on GTS is not actually true from an objective point of view?

To clarify, I stated that GTS is less forgiving on the limit. Not harder to catch on the limit. GTS for me has a nicer progression of the slipangle than GT6 and does a better job at representing reality. But once this window is exceeded, there is cost. You may not notice this assessing only car control, but it's certainly there in terms of lap times. A good example is a Gr.4 Alfa 4C on degraded RH.
 
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D_M

139
XSquareStickIt,

I don't have the game, but I'll offer some suggestions that have worked for me in the past GTs. Take your cars to Suzuka and run balls out from turn 1 to turn 11 in your own personal practice sessions. Use the various race compounds for the race cars and the street compounds for street cars. You should be able to get a feel for how the game physics reacts to your inputs. Using one track should help you to figure out which game lever does what with your particular driving style. In past GTs, I found that if can get my car setup at Grand Valley Speedway or Suzuka, they were pretty manageable at the other tracks. Look at some of your GT6 race cars that are similar to GTS and compare the Limited Slip Differential settings. Try some of your old LSD settings in the new cars. Only mess with one tuning part at a time (Scaff's Suspension and Brake set-up guide). I am not sure how the driving line works in the new game, but try to keep the car centered on the driving line. I know from past GTs that the line isn't the fastest way around the track, but you are just using it to establish car control.
 
626
United Kingdom
Northern Ireland
GTRP_mirial
@XSquareStickIt
It sounds like you're far from at one with GTS if you are leaving large safety margins, but at the same time, this could be poor track visibility as well on the tracks you are practicing on with sunset daytime settings rather than afternoon. The only way to get really confident with it is continuosly look a bit beyond what you are about to do and that gives you piles of time to know whether you are going to make a corner or not. This also has the benefit of perhaps giving you the earliest possible warning of whether the car is going to oversteer or not because from your car POV you are aligning the car with a given point of reference just beyond what you are about to do.

For example, I think the fastest way through Degner1 or Spoon 1 at Suzuka is to rotate the car late in the corner because of the short straight after, so the focus needs to be somewhere between the inside kerb and the exit rumble strips even before entering the corner. I've banged out a lot in the past about the poor visibility of outside kerbs on some tracks. If the rotation is to be sooner because there is a long straight afterwards, like turn four at Interlagos, then the rotation needs to be much sooner, so the area of focus could be somewhere between the turn-in point and the inside kerb.

The reason why I say these areas are of prime focus is because the area of road just before them is where it's all going to be happening where the car becomes most nervous with all the weight over the front, so you need to be prepared for any drama.

I've seen some videos of the top European guys in Gr.4 and if I would hazard a guess, most are likely to be karters or ex-karters because their driving has a hardness about it; it is both very precise but the cars are moving around. One of the reasons I think karters are so well prepared for GT, is because not only do they develop a feel for it, but very critically, a sense of good preparation for every corner because with a kart, you have to brake hard in a straight line before the turn-in point.

I know we can't all be like Senna, but we can at least maximise our abilities with lesser cars and conditions as this video illustrates what good preparation for a corner is, and being able to deal with any potential drama that may arise when it goes wrong.
To Nannini and Alesi's credit, they were completely on the wet road whereas Senna wasn't :)



Without having to go through the rigours of karting, maybe a good way to try put into practice what I've talked about would be to attempt to try the very first driving school test without ABS and with some rearward brake bias to get the rear wheels to lock up slightly. The idea is to focus not on the area of road where you need to stop, but beyond it, using peripheral vision. If you can stop at the right point and control all the rear-end drama with it, then you shouldn't have any trouble applying this into fluid driving on the track itself where the same principle will be used anywhere on the track, including exits, except you'll be accelerating instead of slowing down. I might also add that chase view makes this more difficult because of the greater distance from POV to the track.
 
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985
Singapore
Singapore
XSquareStickIt
To be honest, I was ready to drop GTS for good when I made this thread, but the in depth support I've gotten over the past few days, and in such numbers too, made me feel like I at least owed you guys to give the game another chance.

While I still struggled to clear the Nürburgring Nordschleife Circuit Experience, I think I see what you guys mean. As @mirial has mentioned, feedback from the wheel alone is not enough to gauge when to back off the gas in a RWD car. I had to really watch the rotation of the car, and because I couldn't hear the tyres too well (I still hate how racing tyres sound in this game), I had to resort to other means, like hearing my engine revs rise a little too quickly out of a corner. Still, while I could clear individual sections somewhat okay like this, I couldn't hold that kind of insane concentration for one whole lap of the Nordschleife, and wound up resorting to TCS 2. Even then, with the rear (sort of...) sorted, I still struggled immensely.

While I could rely on other telltale signs that my rear is about to start slipping, I had nothing else but FFB to help me trail brake and tell me how much braking to give the car when pumping it to attempt to trim my line toward the apex (I know this isn't ideal). At this point when trail braking, it feels completely ambiguous how much I'm rewarded for it; the car could just careen past the apex with understeer regardless, or the car would almost mirror my braking input proportionately with its line, and it'd feel exactly the same. Of course, with default ABS settings the front tyres aren't made to squeal (much) even if you floored the brake pedal, so this is one area I'm having immense trouble finding a way around.

I simply could not believe it when I could slam my car into the Carousell and not feel a darn thing on my wheel, on the corner that is world renowned for being front tyre torture. I don't even know if my wheels are in the air or planted on the road, let alone how much grip they each have and how much braking I can get away with, which throws into question how I even ought to approach the corner with respect to each car. The car doesn't "talk" to me, hence why I'm having such trouble even learning a car, ANY car, wheel or no wheel, aid or no aid @Sick Cylinder (I by default drive all aids off, ABS default). And even when I get the nose of the car perfectly aligned with the curve of the Carousell, the rear would just swing out sideways violently beyond any saving. When I drive in GTS I feel like I have to estimate a car's capability and just turn the wheel blindly and hope the car complies.

The physics and driving experience as a whole in GTS to me is serviceable at best, but it takes SO MUCH concentration, effort, and time to learn a car and not spin it off a track that I actually walked away with a headache after golding the Nordschleife Circuit Experience. And, again, even if I can pull a fast lap, it just isn't fun. Not to mention, I'm in a bad place mentally right now, so I get really upset when GTS angers me when I feel it punishes me arbitrarily. Maybe it's just healthier for me if I put down this game and revert to GT6.

I think @dabz343 hit the nail on the head: I don't adapt well. I learned all my fast driving from GT5 and 6, which touted themselves as a "Real Driving Simulator". Yes, I agree that no sim can perfectly encapsulate every little nook and cranny of reality. A lot of fast driving techniques is really difficult to put into words, and it'd be way quicker to just learn by doing than to learn by explaining. Unfortunately, relying on a communicative wheel is one of those many difficult to explain skills I've unknowingly learned and came to rely on in GT6, and an absolutely vital and irreplaceable one at that.

Update 1.03 seemed to have tweaked the FFB for my G29 since I made the OP, which means now FFB won't try to rip my arms out of my shoulders when I take a corner in a Mazda Roadster even with Max. Torque settings at the lowest, though it still communicates WAY too little information.
 
379
United States
PNW
Zenmervolt
One thing that I've noticed about GTS compared to GT6 is that GTS is more demanding of smooth inputs than GT6 was; GTS is more akin to reality in that regard because it means you need to be planning and sometimes even beginning your next input at least one corner ahead. It's still not as demanding as real life, but GTS mimics the amount of mental processing required by strings of many corners better than GT6 did.

I've had a difficult time adjusting to this, but I think it's a positive step towards making me smoother and more deliberate behind the wheel.
 
626
United Kingdom
Northern Ireland
GTRP_mirial
@XSquareStickIt
The key thing to be fast, is to be totally at one with the game (or car in real life) like the way an acrobat is at one walking a tight rope without having to watch where he puts his feet, and only then, will you have the capacity to approach every corner with the whole thing pre-programmed, which is why I stress having all your preparation done by a given point, like attempting to run and then jump over a river; your run up, followed by where you sight where to leap from will be established from as long a way off as possible so that everything isn't done in a rush, and when you do finally make the jump, you will have already sited where you will land to confidently and precisely clear the river. Cornering is similar. Having said that, GT in the previous releases has made that task very tricky in many cases where common points of reference to set up the boundaries for braking/turning-in has been patchy due to the limitations of the graphics on some tracks with bumper view, and this problem was usually overcome by rhythm and habit which IMO, isn't correct because it was very tiring after an hour. Not so in GTS, where you can sight your points of reference from a long way off, and give yourself plenty of seconds to prepare. This minimises the risk of making errors and results in consistent lap times and makes driving far less tiring.

Another philosophy is to use the brakes to steer the car with rather than slow down, but inevitably, this again means getting a one with it because any efficient, well set up car will not always be perfectly balanced for every corner for every lap of a race, where mild oversteer on turn-in may be part of the deal.
 
724
United States
United States
dabz343
Since the new patch brings FFB adjustments, it may be worth while to spend some time refining your wheel settings.

Play with the sensitivity setting in particular as I am sensing more variation/detail/texture under this setting than the torque setting. Wheel calibration is very subjective but the clipping or numbness needs to be dialed out as the communicative aspect in FFB is vital in achieving what @mirial states as being one with the car.

If you haven't already, begin with a low torque and relatively high sensitivity setting. Think of your wheel as an audio speaker. This in theory should produce the cleanest, most detailed sound at a modest volume. Fine tune as needed, along with wheel rotation angle preferences.
 
985
Singapore
Singapore
XSquareStickIt
Hey guys. Sorry for the bump. I did quit the game, until PD grabbed me by my balls and actually introduced an FD RX-7 into the game. With multiple patches adjusting the FFB, I gave the game another shot. Below are the results:



Long story short, I can drive normally again; the game's physics don't feel nearly as ambiguous or alien to me prior Version 1,05. Still not anywhere near what anyone might consider a skilled driver, but at least I know what the heck is going on with my car right now, which means improving on my driving shouldn't be too far fetched a dream to achieve.

I just wanted to share a video of my driving to thank all the expert opinion and advice I've gotten on this thread. The community here never ceases to amaze me. So, once again, thank you all so much for the help, and I hope you enjoy the video!
 
1,793
BreakerOhio
Sometimes we drive not to anywhere, not for anything, just... for the sake of driving. Gran Turismo has always been that outlet for me. I daresay it's what made me a petrolhead in the first place.

But when I find it so hard to drive something relatively tame, when the driving experience is inherently flawed, that's when it stops being fun. There's no point in being fast if it isn't fun; I race only because I love driving. There's no point to learning to comply with something I perceive as flawed. Unless, of course, someone with experience with an actual performance car can tell me that GTS' feedback and physics is more realistic than GT6's, thereby proving wrong my perception of GTS' feedback and physics being flawed. That was also one of the questions I posed in the OP.

Totally agree with you!

GTS has been bothering me through each patch release, now on 1.10. I know they can do it right, with a FFB wheel in GT5 and GT6 was so much better in handling physics and the driving was actually fun.

You ask for someone with experience?
Your perceptions are not wrong, I have a lot of real world driving experience on the track with my Honda S2000 and Lexus ISF. I learned most of my driving from the past GT games, I have been an avid GT gamer with a FFB wheel like yourself and have always thought of GT4, GT5, and GT6 as driving simulators. It has taught me how to drive very fast at the tracks and I've proven it to myself and friends that know me at the track. This implementation of GTS is horrible in tire grip and feedback it delivers to the wheel about the tires.

I am losing the fun factor in driving when I play GTS, smh. I know they can do better, they've done it before, other games are implementing a form of tire grip communication and if we don't say anything about it will not get any better. They can do it, as I have experienced in past GT games. The beta felt good, then 1.05 was icy tires, 1.06 grip returned and felt realistic, then emergency 1.07 to 1.08 it went back to icy, 1.09 got a little better, and so many patches 1.10 now and its still not right.

I learned all my fast driving from GT5 and 6, which touted themselves as a "Real Driving Simulator". Yes, I agree that no sim can perfectly encapsulate every little nook and cranny of reality. A lot of fast driving techniques is really difficult to put into words, and it'd be way quicker to just learn by doing than to learn by explaining. Unfortunately, relying on a communicative wheel is one of those many difficult to explain skills I've unknowingly learned and came to rely on in GT6, and an absolutely vital and irreplaceable one at that.

agree. Frustrated with GTS I went back to play GT5 and GT6 to make sure I wasn't having a bad memory, and sure enough with a FFB wheel the handling and feedback is more communicative in GT5 and GT6 with a wheel. I loaded up Driveclub and PC2 and they are all modeling how to drive fast correctly too. Back to GTS, not fun, it is like a chore, somedays I only play to collect my free daily prize car, design new liveries, but the actual driving is not fun. I race in GT Sport mode when I have enough time to practice and qualify before the race, the jostling back and forth with another driver IS FUN, the sportsmanship matching makes it work for close and clean races, I give them major props for that.

Since patch 1.10, the few cars in the release have given me glimpse that the code is still there, the RX7 shows some of the old code and has some fun to drive aspects in it, but it is still a little bit off in the tire threshold grip. Ever snowboard? the edge of the snowboard grips and allows you to carve the corners tight, the same is with tires when you toss the car into a corner and catch the slide at an optimal slip angle. The tires have deformed and the grip from lateral forces are at the max and would allow you to carve the corner, in GTS the tire grip just goes to ice and this does not benefit you. There is not progressing grip change modeling slip angle correctly in GTS.

The misnomer in simulation driving games is that driving needs to be difficult, GTS driving is over exaggerating the grip loss in tires to simulate the difficult moments of driving but are making it way too sensitive. Those uninitiated to the reflexes to catching a slide or drifting could careless about this as they may not drive at the limits and this could be acceptable for those drivers, but those that know how to catch slides will be frustrated with this handling. All of my track time experience I have explored the limits of my street tires and they never feel like ice unless I'm completely beyond 90 degrees sideways and spun out, at an optimal slip angle the lateral grip is actually increased. And to drive fast in real life you want to be on this edge as much as you can, which requires quick steering corrections as you balance on the limit and try not to move too far away from it in either direction, communicative feedback to your steering wheel to balance your throttle and not over spin the tires. Not in GTS, the grip physics would punish your pace and time.

I can adapt to GTS physics and I do to try to enjoy the game, I am supporting your point because it needs to be supported so that GTS can be improved or for GT7 can be created better. GTS might work the way it is to keep participation for GT SPORT as this bridges the gap with wheels and controllers better the current way it is. That I can understand for the game to be simpler and be more assessable. But what you are articulating about the missing tire and grip in the wheel communications is accurate and is a problem still in 1.10 version. I hope they can fix it soon.
 
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