Diffuser Battle

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Small_Fryz

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Small_Fryz
Well considering articles like this are floating around i thought id ask if someone can provide some pictures and technical information on the differences between the 2 sides that would be great. Maybe even your own opinions on whos right and wrong? I personally havnt seen the differences yet so cant comment. Blake?? Blake?? come in a post your $0.05
 
From the Australian GP thread:

Edit: Found a good image to help explain the row to those who haven't been following the technical discussions:

jnhbgvfscdfngh.jpg
 
Question answered I would say. I say Bravo to the diffuser three for clever exploitation of the rules. I reckon that the other teams will adopt such diffusers as the season progresses.
 
I read somewhere on t'internet that Honda, Williams and Toyota weren't party to the discussions when the other teams were discussing the new rules for the diffusers. Honda(Brawn)/Williams/Toyota then got handed the rules that the other teams made up and made their own interpretation of them.

Don't know if thats true or not though.
 
I heard that on the Radio 5 Live coverage of the Grand Prix. I don't know which session it was in though.
 
The BBC agreed with that as well; I think Brundle mentioned it during qualifying.

Personally, I have to agree with Blake - I think it was Blake - who said that Red Bull, Ferrari and Renault (and don't forget BMW, who failed to lodge the protest properly) claiming that they were protesting because it was "within the spirit of the rules" is complete and utter bull****. There's no way they can argue that what they are doing is comepletely altrusitic and that they stand nothing to gain from having the parts eclared illegal.
 
I think its pretty obvious now the other teams are only complaining because they didn't think of it and it will take them some time to re-design their cars for it.
 
"Spirit of the Rules" is the best part of the whole thing - that term doesn't mean anything in Formula 1. Formula being the key factor, not Feelings1, or Spirit1, or Wearen'tasfastsowecreateafictioustermsowecanbeclosertothetopagain1. If the formula means nothing, neither does the sport.
 
Later in the year, ferrari will get a new diffuser to compete with brawn,toyota and williams. The diffusers really help out considering how good Williams and Brawn did.
 
I hope for the sake of the sport this issue is dropped, because its not helping at all. Too much controversey going around.
 
It can't be dropped. The appeal has to be heard and I wouldn't put it past the FIA to do something really stupid at this point.

I will laugh a lot if it turns out that when all the other teams get a fancy diffuser if they only get one or two tenths out of it.

The speed of the diffuser three comes from the design of the car from the nose to the tail, not just the little bit at the end.

I think the other teams are grasping at any kind of excuse at all for the lack of performance of their cars.
 
Well, I meant I hope the FIA again affirms they are legal, we don't need yet more penalties and messing about behind the scenes.
 
Lets get a few things straight here.

Personally, I have to agree with Blake - I think it was Blake - who said that Red Bull, Ferrari and Renault (and don't forget BMW, who failed to lodge the protest properly) claiming that they were protesting because it was "within the spirit of the rules" is complete and utter bull****. There's no way they can argue that what they are doing is comepletely altrusitic and that they stand nothing to gain from having the parts eclared illegal.

Of course they stand to gain from it - they never claimed otherwise. However, as far as "spirits of the rules" are concerned, there are two points to raise:

The first of which is that as of 2009, this "spirit of the rules" thing exists. Cars were radically overhauled for this season, the most radical rule-change in F1's history, not to slow cars down: But to allow easier passing. The current "spirit" is just that - if it causes additional turbulence or increases sensitivity, it's against that "spirit". And yes, we have to consider that these diffusers might increase a car's sensitivity in wake: Both because it's a bigger diffuser, with different parts of it having airflow at different velocities (the differential could cause additional turbulence), and because it needs more air to be fed in a proper fashion, thus increasing the sensitivity of their own car to turbulence. This lines up with Timo's comments about how he lost all his grip in traffic - when up to 40%, rather than just 15%, of your downforce happens to come from a more sensitive device, that's no wonder.
This is also the reason others are struggling with the design of such diffusers: They're larger and more complex, and can't just be "strapped on" - the whole car has to be built around them in order to feed air to the appropriate holes.

We also have to consider the precedent of Brabham's BT46 Fancar: Technically, it was 100% legal, since the moveable aero was "just a fan for cooling" - which was permitted. It was obviously designed to create low pressure under the car - but also with the side-effect of cooling a little, as an excuse to make it legal. However, it was against the "spirit" of the ban on moveable aerodynamics, and so it wasn't raced anymore. The new diffusers are similar: They use the regulations around the crash-structure and related bodywork to create a new diffuser, which just happens to serve as an impact structure. It may be legal under the precise wording of the rules (and we're not yet sure if that's true!), but they have precedents that argue in the favour of a "spirit of the rules". The old extra brake-pedals by McLaren were similar, too - legal but against the "spirit".

The second is in the way rules are interpreted: Not only the regulated diffuser-dimensions, and using the existing bodywork dimensions - we have to consider that these "extra steps" in the diffusers need feeding-channels: Holes. However, the regulations quite strictly mention "No part of the car should be visible from underneath the car" - yet these holes apparently do cause that. The 3D³ (three double-deck-diffuser teams) are arguing that these are "slits" and thus exempt - which sounds a little rubbish. Also, as Ferrari's Rory Byrne also confirms, it essentially means that ground-effects can return, in a way: By moving the rear suspensions forward, teams will be able to add additional "steps", or decks, to their diffuser and move them accordingly forwards - ground effects at a level far beyond diffusers, and nearing that of the old venturi cars.


There's also these excellent bits by Rory Byrne, which support some of my opinions on the matter. Most of the articles and interviews so far mainly state that it will or won't be banned because of various political reasons, but here's finally an in-depth article on the technical side: Link to article

Autosport
Ferrari design consultant Rory Byrne believes the 'diffuser gang' of Brawn GP, Toyota and Williams have broken with a 15-year protocol in the way they have interpreted Formula 1's technical regulations this year.

With the FIA's International Court of Appeal due to convene on Tuesday to rule on whether double-decker diffusers used by the three teams are legal, Byrne has added his weight to arguments that they are not within the rules.

In particular, he believes that the teams' insistence that holes in the floor of the car designed to improve airflow through the diffusers should be regarded as 'slots' goes against what everybody accepted as correct for many years.

Article 3.12.5 of F1's technical regulations states: "Fully enclosed holes are permitted in the surfaces lying on the reference and step planes provided no part of the car is visible through them when viewed from directly below."

The three teams at the centre of the dispute claim that breaks in the floor of their car are not holes, but gaps between the step and reference planes of the car - so exempt from the requirement that no part of the car be visible through them.

Byrne has told Gazzetta dello Sport that he is sceptical about such a suggestion, however, saying teams had never thought like that before.

"It's a rule set at least 14-15 years ago, and that for many years everyone interpreted in the same way," said Byrne, who won many world titles for Ferrari working alongside Ross Brawn. "If you look at the Brawn car from underneath, you can see the suspension."

Speaking about his feelings on the situation, especially going against one of his former close colleagues, Byrne said: "Ross Brawn and I remain good friends, but one thing is personal relationships, another thing is the professional aspect. And I work for Ferrari."

And in the Gazetta interview:

Byrne: ''When you fully think out the principle of these diffusers then we will get real ground-effect cars once again.'' This would dramatically increase cornering speeds and problems when it comes to closely driving behind each other.

The OWG determined two aims: the 2009 cars are to produce less turbulence and they are too react less sensitively to the turblence from the car in front. The wide front wings, high rear wings etc. is what Byrne, Symonds and Lowe came up with.

But with the double decker diffuser the OWG sees their aims being jeopardised. According to Byrne, under the current regulations a conventional diffuser contributes around 15 % to the overall downforce. The South-African reckons the double-decker diffusers from Brawn GP, Toyota and Williams contribute 40 %. With that we're almost back to downforce figures from last year.

Byrne says it's only the beginning of a dangerous development. Toyota has already introduced a third level in their diffuser. ''Theoratically you can introduce as many levels as you want, or bring the diffuser ever more to the front in order to get higher downforce figures.'' Byrne estimates that the time gain of the controversial diffusers is already 1 second a lap.

The former Ferrari designer adds that it will again become more difficult to follow other cars: ''It's not so much about whether the turbulence gets increased by the diffusers at all. But those that have a diffuser like that are actually having a harder time trying to follow other cars.'' The reason behind this is that the double-decker diffuser needs an optimal approaching flow to work. ''If all the cars would be equipped with such a diffuser then overtaking will become more difficult again.''

If the Court of Appeal deem the double-decker diffuser legal then a costly 'arms race' will break out. ''We will see extreme rearsuspensions, only to allow the entry holes of the diffuser to be moved more and more forward. I can already imagine there being rearsuspension constructions similar to those seen in the '60's, with trailing arms that reach far to the front. That would create space for the diffuser channels.''

Apart from the double-decker diffusers not being within the spirit of the rules, according to the OWG they're also illegal when reading the letter of the law. ''It's a play of words: (the three teams came up with) a section divided in three parts only to apply holes in the vertical intersection between the floor and the reference plane. But the regulations don't allow fully enclosed holes in the vertical intersection. There's even talk (in the regulations) of continuous, non-subdivided planes in the diffuser.''

Byrne mentions a similar example: ''At Imola in 2001 holes were discovered in the diffuser of Williams' car. The FIA stewards objected against it and the team had to close the holes. Why is something, that used to be in force in the past, no longer in force today?


We also have to consider two different scenarios should the part be banned:

First is simple: It's illegal and results stripped, though that will be highly controversial and ever-so-slightly mad. It would promote Alonso to victory in Melbourne and Heidfeld at Sepang, and cause quite a stir.

The other is the banning as-of-now. This solution makes the most sense, and is supported by many precedents: The Renault mass-dampers, the 2003 Michelins, the Brabham fancar and many others. The 3D³ teams already have alternatives - perhaps not very competitive ones, but they won't have to stop racing.
 
Sorry, but I don’t buy that so called “spirit of the rule” thing. It is/was FIA’s responsibility to make sure the rules where clear and indisputable, especially when considering them as “the most radical rule-change in F1’s history”.

There should be no confusion between the “initial intentions” and the “published regulations” either, and I would find it very unfair to penalize the teams on the basis of FIA’s own incapacity to be explicit about what “they had in mind”.

The diffusers have been declared “legal” by the race stewards, so I guess they comply to the actual regulations.

If these rear diffusers “are not” what the governing body “was thinking about”, may I suggest they impose a standardized one for 2010. Of course, this instead could be against "the spirit" of Formula1.;)
 
Sorry, but I don’t buy that so called “spirit of the rule” thing. It is/was FIA’s responsibility to make sure the rules where clear and indisputable, especially when considering them as “the most radical rule-change in F1’s history”.

There should be no confusion between the “initial intentions” and the “published regulations” either, and I would find it very unfair to penalize the teams on the basis of FIA’s own incapacity to be explicit about what “they had in mind”.

The diffusers have been declared “legal” by the race stewards, so I guess they comply to the actual regulations.

If these rear diffusers “are not” what the governing body “was thinking about”, may I suggest they impose a standardized one for 2010. Of course, this instead could be against "the spirit" of Formula1.;)

Except it isn't entirely clear if they're indeed legal - it all depends on interpretations ot the rules. One could claim that the diffusers comply with the rules governing the underbody, diffuser and bodywork areas - and one could claim the opposite.

As it stands, parts of the car are visible from underneath - which isn't legal, unless you argue that the holes are "slits". The Toyota diffuser may or may not have an opening ahead of the rear wheels, which would also deem it illegal. There are also doubts as to whether these diffusers consist of a single, continuous line, and other finer points in these rules. When read "to the letter", some teams and engineers claimed that they have found faults, and some claim they're clear - it's tough for us to tell, since we don't have a full 3D model, but only what the pictures and diagrams show: And they show a very ambiguous state.
 
The FIA makes it's rules ambiguous for issues just like this. When they form the rules they have to take into account how clever the teams designers are. This then allows them to carry out one of their infamous "Rule Clarifications" to deal with situations that they don't envisage when writing the rules.

Having said that, I was under the impression that all three teams submitted their diffuser designs to the FIA Technical committee and all three diffusers were passed as legal.

Then all the diffuser designs passed scrutineering in Melbourne.

How much more legal do they have to get?

The FIA would have to overturn two levels of FIA endorsement of the diffuser to make them illegal. I'm not saying they won't do that but it's unlikely.
 
We also have to consider the precedent of Brabham's BT46 Fancar: Technically, it was 100% legal, since the moveable aero was "just a fan for cooling" - which was permitted. It was obviously designed to create low pressure under the car - but also with the side-effect of cooling a little, as an excuse to make it legal. However, it was against the "spirit" of the ban on moveable aerodynamics, and so it wasn't raced anymore.

I don’t agree that we need to consider the precedent set by the BT46 (or others, such as Renault’s mass damper), because as of this year the technical regulations specifically cover how new technologies will be handled:

2.5 New systems or technologies:
Any new system, procedure or technology not specifically covered by these regulations, but which is deemed permissible by the FIA Formula One Technical Department, will only be admitted until the end of the Championship during which it is introduced. Following this the Formula One Commission will be asked to review the technology concerned and, if they feel it adds no value to Formula One in general, it will be specifically prohibited.

So as long as the double-decker diffusers are legal under the wording of the regulations the FIA are obliged to allow their use for the 2009 season.
 
And it's that very wording they're arguing with, at the moment. The Toyota, from F1technical:

toyotai.jpg


1. First opening - seems to be part vertical and part horizontal? It looks like they are taking air out from under the floor, using the gap between the outside sidepod floor level and the central lower floor level of the tub, engine area etc.
2. Second opening - again seems to be part vertical and part horizontal?
3. How is this continous!? Seems like a break in the line to me?
4. What's going on with these scultped bits of the floor?
 
The result doesn't get released until tomorrow though.

My thought. The diffuser is ruled legal and Brawn finish the following race 1-2

Or the diffuser is ruled illegal and Brawn still win the next race 1-2 and then have a good laugh at the non-clever diffuser 7 for being completely rubbish.
 
Without the diffuser? They won't. The whole car is geared towards that diffuser. Without it, they'll have less downforce available at the front, too - since they'll have to cut front downforce if they want to maintain a driveable balance. The diffuser itself was calculated and confirmed in interviews to be at least half a second - and "Rubens was fast in Australia" doesn't hold, because it's the volume that really counts, not the small details inside. Plus, it'll be an untested part - if they have a competitive alternative diffuser at all, which I might doubt Brawn has.

Also, the deeper I dig into this story, the less it becomes an issue of "Clever Vs. Unclever". I sided with the Diffuser Three at first - I thought it was quite an interesting way to extent the diffuser below the crash-structure - but it changed when I started to read the regulations, view speculated models, and see the pictures.

The regulations on diffusers have been pretty much the same, wording-wise, since 1994 and the plank-regulations: Dimensions and locations changed from time to time, but the essential rules are still the same. What the Diffuser Three did was claim that the upper planes are an entirely different device - and that the holes to feed it are legal, for some odd reason. Essentially, it's not a "clever interpretation of new rules" - it's twisting the way rules were interpreted for the past 15 years.
Even then - Renault and Red Bull came up with such an idea too, asked the FIA, and were told it wouldn't be legal, so saying they were "unclever" isn't fair. Plus, if deemed legal today, Renault already stated they have a partial double-decker ready for China.


If it wasn't for the fact that it's Brawn, Williams and Toyota - three teams whose very existence in F1 is under constant threat - and if it wasn't for the previous four scrutinies this diffuser passed, it would've been banned today.
The arguments against it are too strong: There's no (practical) limit to the diffuser-steps if this interpretation is accepted. Extra planes will be easy to add (as in, the legality will be easy - integrating into the design will be costly), and so we'll reach 2010 with quad-planes and more. Thinking into the long term, teams will be legally able to start their diffusers as far as they can get their rear suspensions to - and judging by the '60s, when such suspensions were popular, they'll easily reach the front of the sidepods.
The arguments in favour? It's legal under the current wording, if you twist the wording enough, and ignore the fact that the underside of the car is visible through the feeding holes. That, and the fact that it passed four scrutinies under these arguments. "It gives the underdogs an advantage" isn't a sensible argument.


Also, Blake - clause 2.5 New systems or technologies doesn't hold: It's not a new system nor a new technology, it's different bodywork, and thus shouldn't be covered. Plus, even such a technology can be banned by the FIA's Technical Department, says the rule.
 
Also, the deeper I dig into this story, the less it becomes an issue of "Clever Vs. Unclever". I sided with the Diffuser Three at first - I thought it was quite an interesting way to extent the diffuser below the crash-structure - but it changed when I started to read the regulations, view speculated models, and see the pictures.

Pretty much echo your comments, although it's only cast doubt in my mind and not made me switch sides conclusively. Funnily enough I never thought of the holes as illegal because of the technical analysis in the Autosport after Melbourne clearly showing the Williams feeding hole and commenting that if it weren't for the wishbones in the way it would be illegal. The reason given was that no part of the sprung part of the car can be visible, which I can only assume now after the latest twist in the debate was a mistake or a mis-interpretation of the rules.
 
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