Discussion: Oversteer correction assistance.

[SileightyCyrus]

*Updated impressions at the bottom of this post*

Hello all.

It's been a while since I've lurked here, some of you might recognize me. Hi!

So, down to business.

For those who have played; do you notice some assistance when you've started to slide, and you go to correct it?

I learned to drift in GT3. I've spent more hours on that game than any other game since. I was insanely excited about GT4 when it came out, and when I finally got it...I hated it. I struggled with drifting (which I think was 80% just me) but I also dreamt of being stunt man and wanted to practice j turns, full speed 360s, etc. I actually am now a stunt man, but that's besides the point! Starting in GT4, I believe, if you went off track, traction control turned on automatically. The same thing when reversing, so Rockfords were no longer possible. I was upset, very much so, but thought it was so people who were already frustrated with an off, and lacked the skills to get back on track, were helped to save from mega frustration.

Fast forward to the beta. I was racing a Genesis GT3 or something similar, and slid out on exit of corner 3 on BH. I countersteered and manipulated my throttle the way I know how...and it was too easy. Not only that, it didn't exactly match my inputs. It has happened a few times now, and unfortunately the only two RWD cars are similar Genesis', so I don't know if it's a car specific trait...or more assistance for accessibility.

I am all about accessibility. Without the millions of non drivers playing the game, we wouldn't have this amazing game to play...but I want the option to turn it off.

Thoughts?

UPDATE: So I have now received two RWD cars that are not the Genesis. The SLS AMG and BMW Z4. After spending a lot of time with these cars, I have to say that I don't believe any artificial assistance is programmed in. I think what I was feeling was simply a very weird setup on the Genesis (weird but useful!) That would essentially understeer it back to neutral. I would still love to hear everyone else's thoughts, as I have yet to drive an RWD car that isn't a race variant.

 

[Lord Protector]

it looks like that from the videos, yeah, also in GT5 and GT6 there was a countersteer assistance so I guess it is still present in GT Sport.

 

[SileightyCyrus]

it looks like that from the videos, yeah, also in GT5 and GT6 there was a countersteer assistance so I guess it is still present in GT Sport.

Those were defeatable options in those games, and they were off in GTS...this seems to be behind the scenes.

 

[Munir]

I totally agree!

For me the physics look a little off, when the car oversteers/ goes over bumps and hits the grass.

 

[SileightyCyrus]

I totally agree!

For me the physics look a little off, when the car oversteers/ goes over bumps and hits the grass.

It feels fine mid slide, but almost seems to just find it's way back to neutral.

 

[GENERALSAVANT]

Funny you mention it because I have a penchant for turn in oversteer/rotation and I do it all the time in Pcars and AC with no ill results. But I’ve noticed in GT sport beta that there’s a tendency for something to happen during my slide maintenance/recovery that pretty much kicks the car back prematurely. And that’s actually caused me to crash many times while racing. It forces me to under drive the cars and while I can still win it’s not as enjoyable as having the freedom to do what I want. I’m guess this is what you all are talking about.

 

[Lord Protector]

Those were defeatable options in those games, and they were off in GTS...this seems to be behind the scenes.

Even without all aids there still was some kind of countersteer-easing

Funny you mention it because I have a penchant for turn in oversteer/rotation and I do it all the time in Pcars and AC with no ill results. But I’ve noticed in GT sport beta that there’s a tendency for something to happen during my slide maintenance/recovery that pretty much kicks the car back prematurely. And that’s actually caused me to crash many times while racing. It forces me to under drive the cars and while I can still win it’s not as enjoyable as having the freedom to do what I want. I’m guess this is what you all are talking about.

I feel exactly same way... I can control a skid in Assetto, but in GT6 it's eased (haven't played GTS)

 

[SileightyCyrus]

Funny you mention it because I have a penchant for turn in oversteer/rotation and I do it all the time in Pcars and AC with no ill results. But I’ve noticed in GT sport beta that there’s a tendency for something to happen during my slide maintenance/recovery that pretty much kicks the car back prematurely. And that’s actually caused me to crash many times while racing. It forces me to under drive the cars and while I can still win it’s not as enjoyable as having the freedom to do what I want. I’m guess this is what you all are talking about.

Yeah, I felt the same thing. No issue with AC, but this is pretty strange.

Even without all aids there still was some kind of countersteer-easing



I feel exactly same way... I can control a skid in Assetto, but in GT6 it's eased (haven't played GTS)

That explains the struggles I had drifting before.

 

[Fredzy]

I've noticed that the game works hard to keep players from rage quitting by getting them back into action quickly after an off. There is value in this, anyone whose played AC on console will tell you. Winning the race doesn't feel all that special when almost everyone else quit.

Though it is a bummer when you have a sketchy driver ahead of you and you see him go flying off the track (yaaay!) ... only to have him re-enter the track close to you and still at race pace (boooo )

I can't say I've felt any artificial assistance with sliding on asphalt but it's definitely much different than AC, way easier to catch. I chalked that up to the generally more forgiving physics rather than some non-defeatable stability control.

The biggest point of driver aid that I noticed (and welcome) is how when you're facing a wall - say after a spin - and you cut the wheel to try and turn while your nose is against the wall it will let you rotate and get back on your way. In past GT games, wall contact tended to rotate your face into the wall, like your front bumper was a giant magnet. Doesn't seem to do that any more.

 

[SileightyCyrus]

I've noticed that the game works hard to keep players from rage quitting by getting them back into action quickly after an off. There is value in this, anyone whose played AC on console will tell you. Winning the race doesn't feel all that special when almost everyone else quit.

Though it is a bummer when you have a sketchy driver ahead of you and you see him go flying off the track (yaaay!) ... only to have him re-enter the track close to you and still at race pace (boooo )

I can't say I've felt any artificial assistance with sliding on asphalt but it's definitely much different than AC, way easier to catch. I chalked that up to the generally more forgiving physics rather than some non-defeatable stability control.

The biggest point of driver aid that I noticed (and welcome) is how when you're facing a wall - say after a spin - and you cut the wheel to try and turn while your nose is against the wall it will let you rotate and get back on your way. In past GT games, wall contact tended to rotate your face into the wall, like your front bumper was a giant magnet. Doesn't seem to do that any more.

I agree it's incredibly valuable to be able to get back on track and back in the action. Furthermore, I've both accidentally overcooked a late braking pass and passed straight through the car, but someone tried to ram me when I lapped him at BH and he turned invisible. It seems they are doing everything they can to ensure accessibility, and I like that.

Luckily this is the beta, I do hope they implement some kind of option for more professional level races to be less forgiving.

I am still very curious to drive another RWD car. I have an Gr. 3 and 4 Genesis...why two Geneses?! So what I felt could absolutely be a characteristic of the car. I mean...even Bunta tuned in some understeer for Takumi, hahaha.

I absolutely welcome the wall release aid! That's fantastic, I haven't seen that yet.

 

[Fredzy]

I am still very curious to drive another RWD car. I have an Gr. 3 and 4 Genesis...why two Geneses?! So what I felt could absolutely be a characteristic of the car. I mean...even Bunta tuned in some understeer for Takumi, hahaha.

I absolutely welcome the wall release aid! That's fantastic, I haven't seen that yet.

I haven't received a single normal car since the start! I have all 3 genesises, a ton of group 3 cars and a few group 4.

I just played around with the wall a bit, and yea, 'wall release aid' is an accurate term. It forcefully corrects you when you head-on the wall.

Also regarding ghosting, I had read a post in the beta forums from a developer explaining that as you increase your driver class, you will not get the ghost treatment as often. So presumably it goes away all together for higher class drivers.

 

[azrilnazli]

Why call themselves The Real Driving Simulator if they allow hidden assistances. Makes it hardcore like in AC. And even AC not hardcore as iRacing.

Those who are rage quite should be punished more like took their Drivers rating and Safety Rating too.

 

[Lord Protector]

Why call themselves The Real Driving Simulator if they allow hidden assistances. Makes it hardcore like in AC. And even AC not hardcore as iRacing.

Those who are rage quite should be punished more like took their Drivers rating and Safety Rating too.

this is a console game you're talking about you can't expect it to be as hardcore as iRacing, with way too less active players than a GT game, which means more casual audience

 

[Tired Tyres]

I adapted from GT6 to AC easily enough. Cars do what they are supposed to do for any given input. That's what makes it easy. All PD would have to do is make it nice and easy to control with a 'pad. Job done.

 

[ImaRobot]

this is a console game you're talking about you can't expect it to be as hardcore as iRacing, with way too less active players than a GT game, which means more casual audience

Well, I suppose its a good thing he didn't say that at all.

 

[SileightyCyrus]

I haven't received a single normal car since the start! I have all 3 genesises, a ton of group 3 cars and a few group 4.

I just played around with the wall a bit, and yea, 'wall release aid' is an accurate term. It forcefully corrects you when you head-on the wall.

Also regarding ghosting, I had read a post in the beta forums from a developer explaining that as you increase your driver class, you will not get the ghost treatment as often. So presumably it goes away all together for higher class drivers.

I tested it last night as well, I'm a fan! I recall something similar all the way back in GT3, but I had thought it was a glitch. I like it.

And with ghosting - good! I like that concept.

Why call themselves The Real Driving Simulator if they allow hidden assistances. Makes it hardcore like in AC. And even AC not hardcore as iRacing.

Those who are rage quite should be punished more like took their Drivers rating and Safety Rating too.

They used to specifically call themselves The Real Driving Simulator rather than The Real Racing Simulator because they wanted that specifically - the drivers to be able to explore and drive different cars, not necessarily be incredibly hardcore with racing. I think if you look at the history of the series you can see it clearly has never been incredibly hardcore with racing.

Well, I suppose its a good thing he didn't say that at all.

It's pretty clear what he meant.

 

[ImaRobot]

It's pretty clear what he meant.

Yeah you're right, it is clear, but you seem to be missing it. His comparison is towards AC(which is on console, that's why he brought it up), not iRacing (which is obviously not a console racer)

Why call themselves The Real Driving Simulator if they allow hidden assistances. Makes it hardcore like in AC. And even AC not hardcore as iRacing.

In other words, he thinks that removing those hidden assists, it will make similarly "hardcore" as Assetto Corsa, which is a very good standing point, even if there is a more "hardcore" game out, like iRacing.

 

[SileightyCyrus]

Yeah you're right, it is clear, but you seem to be missing it. His comparison is towards AC(which is on console, that's why he brought it up), not iRacing (which is obviously not a console racer)


In other words, he thinks that removing those hidden assists, it will make similarly "hardcore" as Assetto Corsa, which is a very good standing point, even if there is a more "hardcore" game out, like iRacing.

I see your point.

 

[Baron Blitz Red]

So is this the GT Sport "version" of SRF???

Or is it an upgraded version of Assisted Steering???

I know your answers could only be opinion based, but as you people have insight through experience, your opinions would be appreciated.

Cheers

 

[SileightyCyrus]

So is this the GT Sport "version" of SRF???

Or is it an upgraded version of Assisted Steering???

I know your answers could only be opinion based, but as you people have insight through experience, your opinions would be appreciated.

Cheers

The usual aids are available, I can't remember if SRF is actually one of the options. I was part of the No SRF group so you probably know where I stand! Assisted steering is an option still, and it is not that, either.

This is actually potentially part of my imagination. I haven't had a chance to drive anything else rear wheel drive, so I can't really tell, but it just seems to me like there was some assistance. I haven't had a chance to drive anything besides GT cars in the game, and I know some RWD cars can feel that way...but I do seem to have some corroboration with others.

I can tell you it's not SRF. There is no magic built in with the aids off, thankfully.

 

[Baron Blitz Red]

Cool, thanks @SileightyCyrus ...

Personally, I hope they do away with the Assisted Steering in GT Sport for events like they did away with SRF in the Seasonal Super Laps in GT6. I can understand TC and ABS, but help with steering???

Cheers

 

[SileightyCyrus]

Cool, thanks @SileightyCyrus ...

Personally, I hope they do away with the Assisted Steering in GT Sport for events like they did away with SRF in the Seasonal Super Laps in GT6. I can understand TC and ABS, but help with steering???

Cheers

You're welcome!

I fully, fully agree. From some of the comments, it would appear that the closer you get to the top ranks, the less help you get - I hope that really is the case. Active steering was bad enough, but SRF is like magic. I could see them developing the technology for active steering, but SRF just somehow increased grip artificially.

 

[Baron Blitz Red]

Back in the early days after GT Sport was announced, I remember reading that SRF was gone but AS was going to continue... and I predicted that Assisted Steering was going to be the "new" SRF of GT Sport.

It may be the lesser of two evils, but if you look at the leaderboards in the Seasonal Super Laps, the evidence speaks for itself. Quite a few in the top 100 have it set to Strong. Let alone in the top 1000 and so on. What makes it worse, is that the people using AS Strong cannot match their times without it, let alone beat their times when challenged to do so.

One magic bullet being replaced by another doesn't cut it with me, especially with the possibilities that GT Sport may or may not offer FIA wise. Hopefully they do it right somehow... either the elimination of AS in events, or at least the segregation between the ones that use it and the ones who don't.

Again, thank you for your thoughts.

Cheers

 

[mirial]

I've always maintained it would be much better for people to learn how to anticipate (to some degree) when a car is going to slide rather than develop less than ideal habits over time brought about by driving assists. At the same time, it is extremely difficult to learn how to do this properly on many of the World tracks simply because the rendering of key points of reference such as inside and outside kerbs isn't good enough, particularly with bumper view. Another issue is that many drivers use chase view as well which further magnifies the problem.

A good starting point would be to introduce an optional part to the licenses with an oversteering, controllable car control on a track which would win you plenty of extra credits once passed.

 

[SileightyCyrus]

Back in the early days after GT Sport was announced, I remember reading that SRF was gone but AS was going to continue... and I predicted that Assisted Steering was going to be the "new" SRF of GT Sport.

It may be the lesser of two evils, but if you look at the leaderboards in the Seasonal Super Laps, the evidence speaks for itself. Quite a few in the top 100 have it set to Strong. Let alone in the top 1000 and so on. What makes it worse, is that the people using AS Strong cannot match their times without it, let alone beat their times when challenged to do so.

One magic bullet being replaced by another doesn't cut it with me, especially with the possibilities that GT Sport may or may not offer FIA wise. Hopefully they do it right somehow... either the elimination of AS in events, or at least the segregation between the ones that use it and the ones who don't.

Again, thank you for your thoughts.

Cheers

Man, I forgot how many people were using AS - it's been a very long time since I played much GT6. I have to agree, I consider it unfair, unrealistic, and unnecessary for a competitive sim, even accessibility wise. A segregation between having it available and not has to be implemented. I can't speak on why they would have kept it for so long, but it does seem like they listen to us. I spoke with the GT Academy folks years ago and they assured us PD pays attention to the forums - and when they started the No SRF group, they completely took out SRF from the Seasonals.

My optimistic side likes to imagine they will have learned, and will be doing more to keep the talent together, but I am with you fully when it comes to AS needing to be gone, or at least taken away as an option for the competitive portion of this game.

I've always maintained it would be much better for people to learn how to anticipate (to some degree) when a car is going to slide rather than develop less than ideal habits over time brought about by driving assists. At the same time, it is extremely difficult to learn how to do this properly on many of the World tracks simply because the rendering of key points of reference such as inside and outside kerbs isn't good enough, particularly with bumper view. Another issue is that many drivers use chase view as well which further magnifies the problem.

A good starting point would be to introduce an optional part to the licenses with an oversteering, controllable car control on a track which would win you plenty of extra credits once passed.

I agree, but have a much tougher stance, it is infinitely better to be able to anticipate and control an loss of grip, than to ever learn to drive without having that feel. I learned everything I know from GT and Forza and it's translated to every other sim as well as real life. Getting used to the medium is definitely a learning curve in itself, but I think the skills can be learned in GT and then transferred elsewhere, so...

I'd love a sub-optimal grip condition license test. Project Cars 2 seems to be ahead of the curve with ice racing; one of the first videos I saw was a short ice racing test, and control of the loss of traction is absolutely required to even navigate through the course.

 

[Grippy]

It is just me but does anyone think maybe they applied some form of default +0.60 toe(like in GT6, across all cars, after an update) and made camber actually work in this game?

Considering it might even be running on the same engine as GT6..just partly overhauled & PS4 optimized.

 

[mirial]

I agree, but have a much tougher stance, it is infinitely better to be able to anticipate and control an loss of grip, than to ever learn to drive without having that feel. I learned everything I know from GT and Forza and it's translated to every other sim as well as real life. Getting used to the medium is definitely a learning curve in itself, but I think the skills can be learned in GT and then transferred elsewhere, so...

I'd love a sub-optimal grip condition license test. Project Cars 2 seems to be ahead of the curve with ice racing; one of the first videos I saw was a short ice racing test, and control of the loss of traction is absolutely required to even navigate through the course.

I know, but the impression I get amongst GT fans is that very many don't really care about trying to become better at it, so enforcing tests that will require perseverance and having to adopt completely new habits outside their comfort zone won't be popular at all.

Some have said that those with karting experience have an advantage and I agree simply because to drive racing karts on the limit or close to it, will have required a driver to read the road ahead in the correct manner and nothing else.

 

[SileightyCyrus]

It is just me but does anyone think maybe they applied some form of default +0.60 toe(like in GT6, across all cars, after an update) and made camber actually work in this game?

Considering it might even be running on the same engine as GT6..just partly overhauled & PS4 optimized.

It does seem like the camber is fixed...didn't they dial in a ton of + toe in GT6 as well? It definitely still feels like GT. I wouldn't be surprised if it was an overhauled GT6 engine, but I also wouldn't be surprised if they redid it and it just feels similar because of it being designed by the same people. I'm just excited that camber works! Also, the old glitch with lowering the back and raising the front doesn't seem to have the same effect it used to!

I know, but the impression I get amongst GT fans is that very many don't really care about trying to become better at it, so enforcing tests that will require perseverance and having to adopt completely new habits outside their comfort zone won't be popular at all.

Some have said that those with karting experience have an advantage and I agree simply because to drive racing karts on the limit or close to it, will have required a driver to read the road ahead in the correct manner and nothing else.

I think you're right. I think the license tests did a really good job of making people WANT to improve in each challenge, and then tricking them into making themselves improve in order to get the gold.

Karting experience is going to make them improve because it's racing in the raw! Every skill necessary in racing can be learned from karting, and it's much more accessible than actual cars - reading the road ahead and is definitely going to be part of any kind of racing, but it's all the skills that improve with karts.

 

[Grippy]

It does seem like the camber is fixed...didn't they dial in a ton of + toe in GT6 as well?

Yup, +0.60 toe to rear of all cars like I mentioned.

 

[SileightyCyrus]

Yup, +0.60 toe to rear of all cars like I mentioned.

I know nothing of real life car settings...but is +60 a high amount? Or is there a huge variance in real cars like I'd imagine?