Do I fail at tuning?

[Seismica]

I've recently been tuning my Toyota Supra RZ '97. It has a stage 5 Turbo, stage 3 weight reduction, R3 tyres, Spoiler, and have bought all the other additions to start tuning it. (Except NOS and Chassis Stiffening/rollcage, chassis refresh is ok though)

I've been at it for weeks now, tweaking the suspension here and there. My ultimate aim is to lap the ring in under 6 minutes (Without the use of NOS), which is no mean feat I admit, but in this car it seems like a challenge.

So far i have managed 6'15 laps, and i'm consistently lapping under 6'20. But the main problem was, the wheelspin.

But today I tweaked the settings after reading Scaff's tuning guide (I was basically just stabbing in the dark with my adjustments before )

So after testing it on GVS and only attaining a time of 1'42.5, I gave in and set TCS to 1. Shortly afterwards i clocked a 1'41.2

I then proceeded to take it back out onto the Nurburgring. This time, setting a clean lap of 6'07.592. Any further improvements are going to take a lot of time, as there were no big mistakes in this lap. The changes to the suspension have made a big difference, but the TCS is giving me at least a couple of seconds, and the ability to be consistent too.

Do I fail at tuning? Have I broken the golden rule, 'no driving aids'? Or is this car so unbalanced as a base that the wheelspin can never be cured? (It's not in the same league as the Speed 12, but it does have wheelspin through 3rd gear which does annoy me quite a bit, and reduces the tyre life by a considerable amount if not careful). I could easily solve the wheelspin by fitting a stage 3 turbo, but then this thing lacks straightline speed

My setup at the moment is:

Maximum tuning, Stage 5/original turbo, R3 tyres (No NOS or Chassis stiffen)

Brakes:
Front: 4
Rear: 6

Suspension:
Spring Rate: 12.0, 10.0
Ride Height: 100, 100
Damper (Bounce): 6, 4
Damper (Rebound): 7, 5
Camber Angle: 2.5, 1.4
Toe: 0, 0
Stabiliser: 3, 3

Downforce:
Front: 30
Rear: 30

LSD:
Initial: 10
Acc: 25
Dec: 10

Transmission:

Auto Setting: 18
1st: 2.713
2nd: 1.806
3rd: 1.354
4th: 1.094
5th: 0.903
6th: 0.751
Final: 3.250

Driving Aids:
ASM Oversteer: 0
ASM Understeer: 0
TCS: 1

Have a go and tell me what you think, and please give me feedback.

 

[nk4e]

To answer your title, no you don't fail at tuning. You could always check out another tunes that you want your Supra to be like and compare and contrast. Or ask for tips, but sometimes it may just be a small part like the compound of the tires.

 

[ShadowSports]

I've recently been tuning my Toyota Supra RZ '97. It has a stage 5 Turbo, stage 3 weight reduction, R3 tyres, Spoiler, and have bought all the other additions to start tuning it. (Except NOS and Chassis Stiffening/rollcage, chassis refresh is ok though)

I've been at it for weeks now, tweaking the suspension here and there. My ultimate aim is to lap the ring in under 6 minutes (Without the use of NOS), which is no mean feat I admit, but in this car it seems like a challenge.

So far i have managed 6'15 laps, and i'm consistently lapping under 6'20. But the main problem was, the wheelspin.

But today I tweaked the settings after reading Scaff's tuning guide (I was basically just stabbing in the dark with my adjustments before )

So after testing it on GVS and only attaining a time of 1'42.5, I gave in and set TCS to 1. Shortly afterwards i clocked a 1'41.2

I then proceeded to take it back out onto the Nurburgring. This time, setting a clean lap of 6'07.592. Any further improvements are going to take a lot of time, as there were no big mistakes in this lap. The changes to the suspension have made a big difference, but the TCS is giving me at least a couple of seconds, and the ability to be consistent too.

Do I fail at tuning? Have I broken the golden rule, 'no driving aids'? Or is this car so unbalanced as a base that the wheelspin can never be cured? (It's not in the same league as the Speed 12, but it does have wheelspin through 3rd gear which does annoy me quite a bit, and reduces the tyre life by a considerable amount if not careful). I could easily solve the wheelspin by fitting a stage 3 turbo, but then this thing lacks straightline speed

My setup at the moment is:

Maximum tuning, Stage 5/original turbo, R3 tyres (No NOS or Chassis stiffen)

Brakes:
Front: 4
Rear: 6

Suspension:
Spring Rate: 12.0, 10.0
Ride Height: 100, 100
Damper (Bounce): 6, 4
Damper (Rebound): 7, 5
Camber Angle: 2.5, 1.4
Toe: 0, 0
Stabiliser: 3, 3

Downforce:
Front: 30
Rear: 30

LSD:
Initial: 10
Acc: 25
Dec: 10

Transmission:

Auto Setting: 18
1st: 2.713
2nd: 1.806
3rd: 1.354
4th: 1.094
5th: 0.903
6th: 0.751
Final: 3.250

Driving Aids:
ASM Oversteer: 0
ASM Understeer: 0
TCS: 1

Have a go and tell me what you think, and please give me feedback.

The fact you can make a Supra hit 6'15 without AIDS is an accomplishment, I myself am attempting that tune right now, I havent been able to find a set-up I'm comfortable with on that car either.. Just keep tweaking on it and you'll find setting you like, That's what I do. Although Scaff's guide is quite impressive and helpful.

 

[Seismica]

The fact you can make a Supra hit 6'15 without AIDS is an accomplishment, I myself am attempting that tune right now, I havent been able to find a set-up I'm comfortable with on that car either.. Just keep tweaking on it and you'll find setting you like, That's what I do. Although Scaff's guide is quite impressive and helpful.

I think this is the best i'm going to get it. Nice little bit of throttle oversteer, makes hairpins a breeze, and it doesn't understeer at speed so its not bad.

Still a problem with tyre wear though... The TCS solved the wheelspin, which makes it faster, but it still shreds the rear tyres unless I drive conservatively.

Another problem, i've overtuned it, this thing can't match LMP/Class C cars, but it overkills just about everything else

 

[ShadowSports]

I think this is the best i'm going to get it. Nice little bit of throttle oversteer, makes hairpins a breeze, and it doesn't understeer at speed so its not bad.

Still a problem with tyre wear though... The TCS solved the wheelspin, which makes it faster, but it still shreds the rear tyres unless I drive conservatively.

Another problem, i've overtuned it, this thing can't match LMP/Class C cars, but it overkills just about everything else

So swap the turbo, Less wheelspin, plus it will be a competitive car with most classes, Like Tuner Challenge. Basiclly I build car's for Tuner Challenge.

 

[Seismica]

So swap the turbo, Less wheelspin, plus it will be a competitive car with most classes, Like Tuner Challenge. Basiclly I build car's for Tuner Challenge.

What are the rules for tuner challenge? They seem to be hidden somewhere in the discussion thread, might give it a go (Or the next one maybe).

 

[Leonidae@MFT]

Before you lose hope completely, you should wait for a moment, as Greycap is working on the solution. Part of the problem is that you've fallen in love with Japanese equivalent of TVR Cerbera Speed 12 in a way. Lots of power, even more torque, and all this available in a manner that is extremely difficult to harness. In addition, MkIV Supra is more of a GT cruiser than B-road bruiser. Heavy for it's size, most of the weight in the nose etc.. But, wait for a couple days and you will have a Supra that can do the 'Ring in less than six minutes, even in your hands.

 

[niky]

Try going down a stage with the turbo. I'm not familiar with the Stage 5 for the Supra, but on other cars, I feel that it makes the car's powerband too peaky and the onset of power too abrupt. That should help with the wheelspin.

There's not really much you can do about wheelspin without changing the car's fundamental balance. You could adjust for a more rearward bias in terms of downforce, soften the rear-end and take out some camber (compensate with a little toe) to give it better traction.

Remember, though, in GT4, while you can change compounds, you're still stuck with the same width of tire the car has as stock... so yes... getting close to 6 minutes is pretty impressive considering what you've got on there. Just keep on trying. EDIT: Do you short-shift? I sometimes find myself doing this with cars that are too powerful... sometimes it helps, sometimes it doesn't. At the very least it'll minimize instability caused by torque pushing the rear end wide and should make your tires last a few laps more.

Gods, I miss GT4. Maybe it's time I reclaim my PS2 back from my brother-in-law's place...

 

[ShadowSports]

What are the rules for tuner challenge? They seem to be hidden somewhere in the discussion thread, might give it a go (Or the next one maybe).

I meant the Tuner Car Grand Prix in Professional Event's. I tune car's to win there basiclly.

 

[Seismica]

Before you lose hope completely, you should wait for a moment, as Greycap is working on the solution. Part of the problem is that you've fallen in love with Japanese equivalent of TVR Cerbera Speed 12 in a way. Lots of power, even more torque, and all this available in a manner that is extremely difficult to harness. In addition, MkIV Supra is more of a GT cruiser than B-road bruiser. Heavy for it's size, most of the weight in the nose etc.. But, wait for a couple days and you will have a Supra that can do the 'Ring in less than six minutes, even in your hands.

Thanks, I look forward to be able to drive that, MFT setups seem to suit my driving style quite well

I just spotted this:

http://www.gtvault.com/gt4/setup-view/s_sid::6250/Toyota-Supra-RZ/

R5 tyres, and a setup that is not so different to mine, and still 16 seconds off my time I could hit 6 minutes with R5s no problem. For the sake of my lap board, all race spec cars must be on R3s, otherwise its not really a fair ranking.

Try going down a stage with the turbo. I'm not familiar with the Stage 5 for the Supra, but on other cars, I feel that it makes the car's powerband too peaky and the onset of power too abrupt. That should help with the wheelspin.

There's not really much you can do about wheelspin without changing the car's fundamental balance. You could adjust for a more rearward bias in terms of downforce, soften the rear-end and take out some camber (compensate with a little toe) to give it better traction.

Remember, though, in GT4, while you can change compounds, you're still stuck with the same width of tire the car has as stock... so yes... getting close to 6 minutes is pretty impressive considering what you've got on there. Just keep on trying. EDIT: Do you short-shift? I sometimes find myself doing this with cars that are too powerful... sometimes it helps, sometimes it doesn't. At the very least it'll minimize instability caused by torque pushing the rear end wide and should make your tires last a few laps more.

Gods, I miss GT4. Maybe it's time I reclaim my PS2 back from my brother-in-law's place...

Thanks I know the circuit inside out now, the good laptimes come just by setting a clean lap. On other circuits i'm still fairly mediocre mind

Whilst the lower turbos remove the wheelspin, the difference in laptimes is really noticeable. I was just trying to get this one right, to get it as fast as it can go on these tyres.

Softening the Springs and Dampers doesn't really solve the problem, it just makes the handling worse . Short shifting might be an idea, but you still get wheelspin in 3rd, and theres too much turbo lag in 4th. I can handle the wheelspin, just not as well as the TCS can Tweaking the gears might help a bit. This is my first real attempt at a tune, i don't think its that bad

I meant the Tuner Car Grand Prix in Professional Event's. I tune car's to win there basiclly.

Ok I'd probably have to go down to a stage 1 turbo to compete in that race i think I prefer taking cars and pushing them to their limits. Just never really bothered with the suspension etc. before (Except ride height )

 

[Lucas]

I have tried to tune this car on S3 tires to release it in my tuning garage, but even with less than 500HP, there's a significant amount of wheelspin to make people lose faith on it. I'm sincerely not happy with a car possessing such an amount of power and not being able to use it properly. If you are having wheelspin when exiting corners, I recommend you to increase the LSD effect during acceleration. I should give it a go again myself.

 

[Leonidae@MFT]

Well, I could match your laptime with my own setup which I did in about 30 minutes before going to work ( Actually, I was bit faster but that was with less torquey stage 4 turbo). It was crude, but it worked well enough so I could lap on 6.1x range on Nurb, even with several spins and other mistakes. I'm pretty sure that Greycap could do sub 6 lap, but the rest of us mortals.. not without lots of failures in the process.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

No you don't fail at tuning. As others have said, 6:15 is impressive around the 'ring.

A couple things I would try to lessen wheelspin (with TCS OFF):

1). reduce rear camber from 1.4 to 0.5. This creates better contact with the road.

2). Lower that rear spring rate. 10.0 is rather tight for the 'Ring, which can create skitteryness. As the car bounces over this track's various bumps and curbs, traction gets sacrificed.

3). lower the rear in 5 mm increments.

4). raise the accel rating in the LSD. Try about 30. Try 35. Try 40. See what feels best.


Lowering the rear and raising the LSD can create more understeer, but I've driven the 4th-gen Supra and they have very low understeer, and that's when they're not being driven on racing tires. There should be some leeway here so that making an effort to reduce wheelspin won't create alot of understeer up front.

There may still be some wheelspin from the rear, but it should be reduced.

 

[Seismica]

No you don't fail at tuning. As others have said, 6:15 is impressive around the 'ring.

A couple things I would try to lessen wheelspin (with TCS OFF):

1). reduce rear camber from 1.4 to 0.5. This creates better contact with the road.

2). Lower that rear spring rate. 10.0 is rather tight for the 'Ring, which can create skitteryness. As the car bounces over this track's various bumps and curbs, traction gets sacrificed.

3). lower the rear in 5 mm increments.

4). raise the accel rating in the LSD. Try about 30. Try 35. Try 40. See what feels best.


Lowering the rear and raising the LSD can create more understeer, but I've driven the 4th-gen Supra and they have very low understeer, and that's when they're not being driven on racing tires. There should be some leeway here so that making an effort to reduce wheelspin won't create alot of understeer up front.

There may still be some wheelspin from the rear, but it should be reduced.

I'm sure for a very skilled driver like yourself, reducing the oversteer/increasing the understeer is not a problem . But i'm very inconsistent with my turn-in points, my braking zones etc. I need a slightly oversteery setup, if i change those settings to counter the wheelspin, it makes the car harder to drive, makes it harder to handle through the turns, particularly on the corner entry. At least this car gives a bit of leeway in the form of my driving line, it's very versatile. I've forgotten, the 6'15 time was my old laptime on my old setup. I havn't tried this new one without TCS 💡 Maybe i should try that now lol (Just to make sure, whether it is the TCS doing all the work for me)

EDIT: Yep, the 6'07 lap was the Traction controls doing, i just did 2 clean laps, 6'15 and 6'16. I could maybe hit 6'12. The TCS is cutting time everywhere.

 

[SaberFire]

Gods, I miss GT4. Maybe it's time I reclaim my PS2 back from my brother-in-law's place...

You have my axe

From the looks of it, you don't fail at tuning at all 👍 The Supra is already known for being a bit of a pig in this game with the hilarious wheel spin, so 6:15 is mighty impressive

 

[Greycap]

I'm pretty sure that Greycap could do sub 6 lap, but the rest of us mortals.. not without lots of failures in the process.

I probably could if the damn thing stopped spinning its wheels at 200 km/h and if I had the nerve to push it all the way to the end. As of now the result stands at 6'09 and change with a setup that wasn't fully finished, I improved T3 by a second and a half already but was too tired to get a full clean lap down. No aids used.

 

[mafia_boy]

Seismica, you don't suck at tuning. The Supra RZ is THE HARDEST car to tune at it's maximum. Hell, you have a car that will chew up R5's and spin them to 300km/h+ at the hint of some boost. We have a group of tuners that have tried to tame this beast with not much success.

Hopefully MFT have a solution with their Stage 4 turbo'd effort.

 

[ShadowSports]

I tried Tuning it for abit last night, About an Hour and I couldnt limit wheelspin at all. The wheelspin this car produce's is insane. I made it around the Nurburgring in 6'20.

 

[niky]

A slightly understeery set-up does wonders for consistency. Although yes, dealing with understeer on the Nurb is difficult, as there are a whole lot of corners that want nothing more than to spit you out wide into the weeds. Still... if you reduce rear camber to increase traction, that's going to counter some of the understeer from the softer/lower rear end. I kind of agree that your spring rates seem kind of skittish for the Nurb. B-Spec Bob might be able to extract the most out of an ungodly stiff car there, but for us humans, having a little bounce-control helps build confidence...

You have my axe

He doesn't live quite that far away...

 

[Seismica]

Another question, does anyone know what week/day in the used car cycle the low Mileage RZ appears? That could give me an extra bit of horsepower...

Mine has something ridiculous like 36k miles on the clock

PAL version*

EDIT: Ignore the question, i've found the answer (Using Famine's used car cycle spreadsheet 👍, why i didn't think to look there first i don't know), week 69 of the cycle. Less than 100 ingame days I'm going to spam cash until then I think. Either that or try my hand at tuning a different car in the time.

 

[PF]

Off-topic, but I'd suggest you keep a keen eye out for week 67 in the cycle. It has sixteen 10km specials, eight of which (IIRC) only turn up once in the low mileage versions. Of course, you can only buy seven of them, so you need to check your garage to figure out which ones you should get.

 

[sukerkin]

I don't know if it'd be of any help but have a look at how I approached dialing in the Speed 12 for the 'Ring and see if it gives you any ideas. For example, one thing I took from the process was the counter-intuitive step of stiffening the rear suspension rather than softening it. It might not help but when you've taken all the 'right' and logical steps sometimes improvement lies in doing the 'illogical' .

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showpost.php?p=3332567&postcount=360

 

[DK]

Off-topic, but I'd suggest you keep a keen eye out for week 67 in the cycle. It has sixteen 10km specials, eight of which (IIRC) only turn up once in the low mileage versions. Of course, you can only buy seven of them, so you need to check your garage to figure out which ones you should get.

Do the Silvia S15 and Ford Mustang SVT Cobra R have 10km specials?

 

[Adamgp]

Cobra R does have a 6.2m version. Not sure when it appears.

 

[Leonidae@MFT]

It also depends of whether you have PAL or NTSC version of the game.

 

[Seismica]

I don't know if it'd be of any help but have a look at how I approached dialing in the Speed 12 for the 'Ring and see if it gives you any ideas. For example, one thing I took from the process was the counter-intuitive step of stiffening the rear suspension rather than softening it. It might not help but when you've taken all the 'right' and logical steps sometimes improvement lies in doing the 'illogical' .

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showpost.php?p=3332567&postcount=360

I've tried softening it, reducing rear camber, etc. The handling just goes to pot

The TCS allowed me to put a bit more throttle in, and this induced controllable oversteer which allowed me to get around the circuit faster. Without the TCS, the extra throttle just translates as wheelspin, i'm forced to be smoother and also slower on the exits and its costing a lot of time.

The bumps arn't a problem, I know the circuit nearly inside out, I lift off where I know there are bumps that could unsettle the car. It suffers from the same problem on flat/smooth circuits.

I may have given up on tuning the car myself, but have not given up on my target. In the meantime, i'll be doing a 24hr race, to get my hands on the Bentley Speed 8 which I have never got before.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

It also depends of whether you have PAL or NTSC version of the game.

Well said. I'm still lookin' for your 6.2 mile version of the MR-2.

 

[dudejo]

i managed to make the wheelspin bearable by shoving 200 kg on the ass.

i also added much wider gearing and max downforce. i can practically go all-out as slow as 100 mph...on S-grades.

 

[Paulie]

I was also going to suggest some ballast weight over the rear. The car is nose heavy, so it will actually help weight distribution, and with all that power you won't miss acceleration if you can actually put your foot down.

I meant the Tuner Car Grand Prix in Professional Event's. I tune car's to win there basiclly.

Try getting the GNX on S3 tyres winning, I did.

 

[Nicktune]

👍