Do we need PS4/ XBone already?

[Luminis]

Making money seems hard to do in this business so making a very good product and maybe exceeding budgets usually means from what I've seen quite a good product is made to be competitive. I see people refer Microsoft as Micro$oft even though potentially they could have made a loss on every console platform they released.

Case in point: The practice of cutting content and selling it as DLC is a great way to make money for developers. It works, everyone does it. And it doesn't make the product any better, from the customer's perspective. Be it Microsoft or Sony, they'll always try to create the product that offers the most revenue, not the product that's best from the customer's point of view.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Case in point: The practice of cutting content and selling it as DLC is a great way to make money for developers. It works, everyone does it. And it doesn't make the product any better, from the customer's perspective. Be it Microsoft or Sony, they'll always try to create the product that offers the most revenue, not the product that's best from the customer's point of view.

Don't see this really making much of a difference regarding how well a game developer has utilised the hardware power of the console to make game better. I think it is important that game developers and publishers make money on the game, after all in it is not meant to be a charity but even with DLC, it seems a struggle to make money.

From what I've seen since really the PS3 and 360 generation started, gamers have got much more benefit compared to previous generations as costs has risen to make games better but price for games seem quite similar to how they were before so we have platform makers, game developmenent teams and publishers seem like they are giving great value to us. Struggling to really think of something as good value as console gaming and how competitive it is. Even peripherals such as steering wheels are very good value, Thrustmaster are struggling financially it seems while giving us great value steering wheels.

 

[Luminis]

Don't see this really making much of a difference regarding how well a game developer has utilised the hardware power of the console to make game better.

No, it doesn't make a difference to how well the hardware is used, but it shows that making the best possible product for the user isn't the focus.

I think it is important that game developers and publishers make money on the game, after all in it is not meant to be a charity but even with DLC, it seems a struggle to make money.

A struggle? Have you bothered to check revenue figures for gaming-related companies lately? Seriously, go and look up some of the larger companies' reports for the last few fiscal years and tell me they're struggling to make money. Sure, you have companies like Square Enix complaining that their million sellers still don't make them money, but that's largely because they, apparently, don't know how to budget any more. As opposed to, say, From Software.

From what I've seen since really the PS3 and 360 generation started, gamers have got much more benefit compared to previous generations as costs has risen to make games better but price for games seem quite similar to how they were before so we have platform makers, game developmenent teams and publishers seem like they are giving great value to us.

Prices for the games themselves have stayed the same, yes. What about DLC, though? Remember the PS2 era, where 60 bucks got you the entire game? These days, the entire game will set you back a good bit more, thanks to DLC. And single player games don't really take you longer to finish, these days, do they? In fact, games seem to become shorter and shorter.

And while I'm on the topic, here's a video of Jim Sterling dealing with preordering, DLC, not getting full games for your money (language warning):

Struggling to really think of something as good value as console gaming and how competitive it is. Even peripherals such as steering wheels are very good value, Thrustmaster are struggling financially it seems while giving us great value steering wheels.

Thrustmaster is struggling because the market for wheels (and HOTAS flight sticks, for that matter) is rather small. They're also offering gamepads and gaming headsets, which are inferior to the competition (Logitech, Razer, Steelseries, Turtle Beach, you name it), though.

Console gaming two generations ago, before the DLC hype, gave more value to the players for their money than you're getting now - despite the industry and its market growing larger and larger. I could also point towards the indy scene; they might not offer the same visual fidelity, but in terms of content for the price, much better value than most AAA games.

But, seriously, I'm not going to have another "the PS4 can do 4K"-style debate with you, thanks. If you're actually thinking game developers are primarily trying to make products that offer the best value possible to the player (wonder how you're going to explain the sheer existence of games like Colonial Marines, tbh), I'll leave it at that. Based on how the debate about the PS4's 4K capabilities went, it's not going to be something I'll enjoy

 

[Wolfe]

The way I see it, the tail end of the previous generation had developers dumbing down games -- not the best possible product -- to squeeze out higher-res textures and high-poly models, whether it was due to disc space, processing power, or budget constraints. I agree with Luminis, compared to games from earlier in the '00s, more recent games have had fewer features and less content, or have been finding other ways to cut corners.

On the subject of DLC, while part of it is simply profit, I think it's also a product of the investment required to create today's HD assets, and isn't entirely unfair. I'm sure Saidur_Ali is correct that publishers would rather ask for more than $60 for a new title. On the other hand, that doesn't necessarily mean those games are a good value for consumers. There have been quite a few expensive turds lately, and the value of that "cinematic experience" some developers strive for is...subjective.

 

[Luminis]

I'm sure Saidur_Ali is correct that publishers would rather ask for more than $60 for a new title.

Yup, true enough. EA has been toying with that idea for sure. Then again, they'd ask for $80 even if the product's actual value is more along the lines of $30 - if they felt they could get away with it.

 

[ImmalovemaGTR]

I think when just looking at graphics, the PS3 (can't speak for XB) came to its limits.

Games like GT6, GTA5, Hitman Absolution and so on have really nice graphics, but I think the PS3 is maxed out with this.

And while I think that the increase of graphical quality over time has decreased a lot (look at GT5 or GTA 4: TBOGT, they are graphically still very nice despite beeing about 4-5 years old), the new console generation IS necessary.

I think nowerdays you can't improve graphics with pixels or polygons, but with good lighting and rendering. (e.g. Forza 5, pCARS, improved GTA 5, Destiny,...)

 

[Oso Actual]

For those computer savvy people, what are the spec detail comparisons between what is used in ps3/xbox360 vs ps4 and xbone?

 

[LeMansAid]

You're more the exception to the rule as i think the majority of folk either sell off their PS3 once they get a 4, or it disappears in the closet.

Who are the "we" in the thread title though?

Someone just started a thread (as their first post) on GTP yesterday, stating that they had only just switched from rca to hdmi for their PS3. If that's at all indicative of the masses, then there's no point asking the question of "the masses". After that, we're left with "the exceptions". These are the people that realise that while their PS3 might be able to play PS1 games, PS2 games, Mega Drive collections, arcade collections, and on and on, it can't neccessarily play them properly. For instance, once it's realised that the emulation lag for old Playstation games makes some of them unplayable on PS3, and that the PS3 can't output low res 240p and 288p at all, the reality that the old consoles are very much still required hits home. The people that appreciate those deails are also the same people that will likely appreciate the finer details of the new gen capabilities.

 

[Luminis]

They're hardly comparable.

The PS3 uses the Cell processor; a single core with seven additional auxiliary calls at 3.2 GHz (which aren't providing the same performance as the primary core, so it's not exactly an octo core CPU). The Xbox 360 also runs at 3.2 GHz and has a tripple core CPU. Both the XBone and the PS4 are using a modified version of the same AMD quad-core APU (CPU and GPU on the same chip) at 1.6 GHz.

I dug up a decent comparison of performance measured by FLOPS (floating point operations per second) quite some time ago; don't think I'll find that, though.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

I only play racing games, so my opinion can hardly be called mainstream, but I'm not sure I like where the gaming industry is heading in the next generation. Just look at Driveclub and The Crew. Graphics are amazing sure. But we have lukewarm gameplay, connectivity problems, microtransactions, season passes etcetera et al. It seems that with each new gen the devs' focus switches more from gameplay to graphics. To the average joe, graphics are the only thing that wows them, so this is to be expected. But for the hardcore players (the actual people who preorder and buys all DLCs and keeps these companies alive) a good gameplay is a must. What we are getting now on PS4/X1 feels more like glorified tech demos than full priced games.

The over monetization of everything sets a bad precedence as well. Early in the PS3 generation we pay $80 (here in Australia) and we get everything on Day 1. DLC actually expands the base game with more cars/tracks/modes and priced reasonably. Late in the generation we still pay the same amount, but stuff gets taken out before release and resold as DLC. In some cases stuff that were already in previous games *cough* Codemasters *cough*. Now for PS4 a game costs $90, plus a season pass of $40 if you want the full content. Developers don't make games and think "How do I make this fun" but "How do I make this earn as much $$$ as possible". I understand that development costs keep rising, but eventually it will become unsustainable. Wouldn't it be better if we cap the graphics limit and start focusing again on gameplay?

 

[Tornado]

The 360 was essentially equivalent to a top of the line gaming laptop circa late 2005. The graphics card in particular was a really impressive thing with what Microsoft managed to get ATi to design for them. The PS3 was essentially equivalent to a slightly crappier, infinitely more confusing gaming laptop from 2005. The Wii was a PowerMac G3.



The Xbone is a lower midrange modern PC from early 2013.The PS4 is an upper midrange PC from early 2013. The Wii U is three Wii taped together.

 

[Earth]

My opinion on DLC

Old School Developers
Work on a game for 2 years. Release it for $60. Work on the sequel for 2 years. Release it for $60.

New School DLC Culture Developers
Work on a game for 1 year. Release it for $60. Work on DLC for 1 year. Release it for $30. Work on the sequel for 1 year. Release it for $60. Work on sequel DLC for 1 year. Release it for $30.

To put it simply, in old school gaming you paid $120 for 4 years worth of work. In new school gaming you pay $180 for 4 years worth of work.

Its the single reason why games did not raise in price this gen. Studios are making a KILLING off of a DLC.

Little Big Planet is one of the worst abusers of DLC. LOADS of content is locked behind a paywall. Theres levels and content from the first game which was released 5 years ago that is STILL locked behind a paywall. They refuse to release all old content with the new games....why? Because if you bought ever piece of Little Big Planet DLC it would set you back around $250.......

The 360 was essentially equivalent to a top of the line gaming laptop circa late 2005. The graphics card in particular was a really impressive thing with what Microsoft managed to get ATi to design for them. The PS3 was essentially equivalent to a slightly crappier, infinitely more confusing gaming laptop from 2005. The Wii was a PowerMac G3.



The Xbone is a lower midrange modern PC from early 2013.The PS4 is an upper midrange PC from early 2013. The Wii U is three Wii taped together.

The 360 and PS3 are relics of an excessive and wasteful generation that cost Microsoft and Sony tens of millions. Sony was losing something like $200 with every PS3 sold. The 360 cost was nowhere near as bad because it was cheaply built but it cost Microsoft millions in the long run to repair the consoles.

Like a modern F1 car, the Xbox One and PS4 are packing plenty of punch at a heavily reduced price to both the consumer and manufacturer.

Next gen has the ability to be far better then the 360/PS4 era. The new consoles are more similar then they ever have been, and they closely resemble a PC more then they ever have. Games can be made faster and cheaper. 2014 was a disappointment, but I have a feeling 2015 is going to get the snowball rolling and the momentum will only build from there.

 

[Luminis]

The 360 and PS3 are relics of an excessive and wasteful generation that cost Microsoft and Sony tens of millions. Sony was losing something like $200 with every PS3 sold. The 360 cost was nowhere near as bad because it was cheaply built but it cost Microsoft millions in the long run to repair the consoles.

I don't think that's the point, though; the point was that the hardware was more capable compared to what was on the market back then. Sony and MS making more money off of the consoles is nice for them, but it doesn't improve the user experience in any way. Goes to show that you're getting less value for your money, though, if they're not selling at a loss.

Like a modern F1 car, the Xbox One and PS4 are packing plenty of punch at a heavily reduced price to both the consumer and manufacturer.

Reduced price for the consumer...

The PS3 was estimated to have a manufacturing cost of ~ $840 and was sold at $599 at launch. The PS4 is estimated to have a manufacturing cost of ~ $380 and is sold at $399. If you're a customer, would you rather pay $599 and get $840 in exchange or pay $399 and get $380 in exchange? Cheaper doesn't mean better value, after all.

Next gen has the ability to be far better then the 360/PS4 era. The new consoles are more similar then they ever have been, and they closely resemble a PC more then they ever have. Games can be made faster and cheaper. 2014 was a disappointment, but I have a feeling 2015 is going to get the snowball rolling and the momentum will only build from there.

Just a gut feeling, but I don't think that cheaper development will benefit the consumer. The games will still be priced the same and DLC and micro transactions will continue as they're now.

 

[Beerz]

Just a gut feeling, but I don't think that cheaper development will benefit the consumer. The games will still be priced the same and DLC and micro transactions will continue as they're now.

...or get even more ridiculous.
Personally, I find already abusive the prices the're asking for DLC, especially considering some of it is already available at game launch. If it's available at game launch (or in a time frame very near to it), it SHOULD be included in the game, imho.

And living in a country in a deep crisis, having pay cuts left and right, paying in €uros a lot more than US consumers pay in USD (couple of examples: a new game costs 60USD, and here it costs €70, which is about 85USD; regular PS4 cost is 400USD, over here is €400, which is roughly 485USD...), makes it all much worse. And when after all the effort you put in to get a console and a single game, they want to sell you some DLC to "make the game more complete" for €50, I say it crosses the line of good sense.
But it works. And they're making money, which is their main goal. Regardless if the final product (with or without the DLC) is worth the money or not.

 

[Luminis]

And they're making money, which is their main goal. Regardless if the final product (with or without the DLC) is worth the money or not.

That's one reason why I'm sticking to my PC. Sure, the hardware is more expensive, but I generally don't feel like I'm being bled dry, especially with Steam Sales and what not.

 

[Shirrako]

You're more the exception to the rule as i think the majority of folk either sell off their PS3 once they get a 4, or it disappears in the closet.

My point being is dynamic weather, upgraded smoke and blowing litter worth 400 dollars? The processing options will generate superior games in the future that's for sure, but most current gen games that are released nowadays just look a tad better than their last gen predecessors, so one can be perfectly happy (and have more money in the bank), if he settles for the extensive library of last gen games for the time being.

You played like20 games on your ps3 since 2010, if ps4 doesn't impress you then just get yourself a good pc, i always see you complaining about everything, pc may satisfy your needs with it's simracers, and judging by your ps3 library of games, i don't think the ps3 satisfied you either.

 

[mister dog]

You played like20 games on your ps3 since 2010, if ps4 doesn't impress you then just get yourself a good pc, i always see you complaining about everything, pc may satisfy your needs with it's simracers, and judging by your ps3 library of games, i don't think the ps3 satisfied you either.

 

[Sanji Himura]

I personally think that comparing Driveclub to Grand Turismo or even FM4 to FM5 is a bit like comparing apples to oranges at this point in the game. Sure, we are going to see some graphical improvements between the titles, but if you want to be completely honest with ourselves, we need to compare the consoles between one title that has seen some similar improvements across the board between the platforms.

I personally think that Final Fantasy X HD Remaster is going to be the title that will serve as the benchmark between the PS3 and PS4 since similar improvements are happening to the game across the board to get it optimized for the different hardware.

 

[Luminis]

I personally think that Final Fantasy X HD Remaster is going to be the title that will serve as the benchmark between the PS3 and PS4 since similar improvements are happening to the game across the board to get it optimized for the different hardware.

Those remastered games usually don't get redone in an entirely new graphics engine, though. Typically, they'll have some high-res textures, some anti aliasing and maybe minor improvements to the lighting and object densitiy. They're severly underselling the capabilities of a new console if used as the benchmark compared to previous titles. I mean, the PS3 version of FFX wasn't a huge leap ahead compared to the PS2 version, either.

I mean, compare this to Final Fantasy XIII:



The PS3 would've been a bit crap if FFX HD was its benchmark title...

The fairest comparison, imho, is comparing launch titles with launch titles; similiar degree of knowledge and expertise of the given system by the developers and, thus, a similar degree of optimization. Compare Fórza 2 with Forza 5; they're worlds apart. Forza 5 looks a fair bit better than Forza 4, too, despite the fact that the devs will probably take a few more years to push the XBone / PS4 as much as Turn 10 did with Forza 4 and the 360.

Oh, and one more thing why I'm glad we've finally gotten new consoles; regardless of how powerful they are, having hardware architecture similar to a PC means more cross platform titles. I'm fairly confident that the PC releases of games such as Metal Gear Solid V are partially due to the ease of porting them over. As long as a PC port is only a small investment on the (third party) developer's part, there's nothing from stopping them from porting stuff over, some timed exclusivity aside in order to not hurt the sales on consoles.

 

[mister dog]

^ True that the best comparison between the gens is made with their launch games, and if you take the example of FM2 compared to FM5, they are worlds apart. I gotta add that if it weren't for the whole wheel debacle I would have probably bought a Xbone next year as I like the direction the FM and FH series are going and they are exclusives, but wheel incompatibility is another factor that makes one wait it out to see what are the available options in the near future.

 

[Luminis]

I gotta add that if it weren't for the whole wheel debacle I would have probably bought a Xbone next year as I like the direction the FM and FH series are going and they are exclusives

Oh how much I agree with that! I've been an avid Forza player and a huge fan of T10, but MS drove me away when they switched up the input protocols with the XBone.

Sigh... Too bad that there are not games like Forza or GT for the PC. NFS Shift is close but crappy in the end and Project CARS and Assetto Corsa, while neat, aren't following the same formular, after all

 

[mister dog]

Oh how much I agree with that! I've been an avid Forza player and a huge fan of T10, but MS drove me away when they switched up the input protocols with the XBone.

Sigh... Too bad that there are not games like Forza or GT for the PC. NFS Shift is close but crappy in the end and Project CARS and Assetto Corsa, while neat, aren't following the same formular, after all

Well one thing is for sure, if I do buy an xbone I won't buy yet another wheel just for the sake of filling the pockets of MS/Thrustmaster. I would just play with a pad and pick up a PC for wheel usage. Good thing is that they improved the vibration for the Xbone pad as I found that severely lacking on the 360 one.

 

[Luminis]

Yeah, same here. Too bad Fanatec won't offer a decent solution to get their old wheels compatible with the One. And if I ever got a current-gen console, I can't see myself spending cash on peripherals that will likely end up being useless with the next generation of consoles yet again

 

[MeanElf]

I am now considering getting a T300RS for Driveclub, having seen some videos of how smoothly people drive with that wheel on the PS4. It also has the advantage of being PS3 and PC compatible - so a worthwhile purchase once I can afford it.