Do you think perhaps Kaz's interest in GT as a game is actually waning? (TITLE EDITED

[Luminis]

Do you think perhaps Kaz's interest in GT as a game is actually waning?

I'd like to partially agree with this. Because, while I thing that Kazunori is still focused on Gran Turismo as a product, even though he's doing lots of other stuff as well, it's his vision that's getting in his way, I think.

His vision is said to create an encyclopedia of cars and, personally, I think that's not all that compatible with actual gaming anymore. It was great back in the day when nobody really cared about stuff like damage or features like a livery editor. By now, this has changed, though, and in my opnion, it shows in GT5. PD tried to get this 'encyclopedia of cars' thing going in high detail and whatnot, but seemingly forgot about turning it into a game. and I consider it fairly possible that this is, basically, why GT5 ended up with a lot of its shortcomings, like the damage system not being implemented, lots of features not being available throughout all of the content and so on and so forth. I guess you get the idea. At times, it feels like GT5 would be best suited to just look pretty with its premium cars, take them for a spin once in a while to enjoy the physics, but it's not, you know, meant to be actually played as a racing game.
At times, photo mode seems to be a lot more 'finished' than GT Life with the fistfull of events it has...

In that regard, I agree with IGN's statement of Gran Turismo being a 10/10 simulation in a 5/10 game.
Don't get me wrong, I still love playing GT5. But a lot of things kinda make me want to put the game away instead of motivating me to play some more - like the leveling system or hunting down specific carrs in the used lot because I have to use a certain standard car for a certain race. Or only being able to use an acquired paint once.

Overall, I just get the feeling that Kazunori and PD forgot about what GT is at heart: A game. And a game has, if you're asking me, to play well first and foremost. It's just like PD is more in touch with the automotiv industry than the gaming industry. And while that's great in its own right, getting a bit back on track with GT being a game wouldn't hurt.

Last but not least, I think looking at other games for inspiration wouldn't hurt the GT franchise either. No need to reinvent the wheel when there's a pretty good one out there, in my opinion. You know, keep up with what's today's standard in the industry.

All things considered, I just think it's impossible right now to fulfil both Kazunori's vision of an encyclopedia of cars and a good (racing) game. Maybe it'll be easily possible somewhen in the future, but for GT6, I'd like to see PD focus more on making a great game again. Nothing wrong with presenting cars as close to what they look and drive in real life, in fact, that's going to be enough for me to buy every GT game that's going to be released, but to get top honors again, I'd think it's definitely a requirement to turn GT into a 10/10 simulator in a 10/10 game.

Okay, rant over. This is just my opnion, by the way, not stating anythiing as fact or whatever.

 

[tigermilk]

So I have to disagree with you about profit being the "one thing in mind." While you can accuse a number of western companies of just thinking of the dollar, Hollywood and Microsoft come to mind, even in the west there are quite a few who don't. Thank God some western game companies like Insomniac, Sucker Punch and Naughty Dog don't.

??? All those companies are constrained by finances. No profit (even $0.01) means no future jobs. Companies can't be completely altruistic and still survive. A company like Sony can certainly take a loss on some items. For example, the PS3 originally was a loss leader for them. Software sales would hopefully fill the gap. But Sony is diverse enough to afford loss leaders if it fits in the bigger strategy. They may contract a small developer to create a niche title in hopes of a big payoff, much like Hollywood does with independent movies, However, a small development house that is expected to cater to millions of consumers doesn't have that luxury of independence. With success comes accountability.

I hate to break it to you, but while Japanese companies may not think about the dollar, they are thinking about the Yen. They are thinking of market share. They are keen to currency fluctuations and how they affect their corporate profits. Sony is just as bad as Microsoft in my opinion. Perhaps even moreso. They took the consumer for granted with both the PS3 and GT5.

 

[Tenacious D]

Where did this even come from? I don't appreciate the racist implications (especially on a board where a regularly poster LOVES to berate T10 shipping out jobs to Vietnam as if they are somehow second rate people over there).

Yes, that would be me. You sure present Forza as some perfect car game, when flaws and bugs in cars are ported straight over from Forza 1 intact, never fixed in three games, and you have cars with surfaces that just WILL NOT behave right in the Livery Editor, and all cars to a Premium level, so to speak, as the quality is all over the map. Yeah, outsourcing to third world countries is sure serving Turn 10 well... sure...

BTW I am Chinese so...

Maybe I should just let this lie...

I must disagree with you there.

The game got it's car roster dramatically increased, yes. There were some nice additions if I remember correctly (performance ratings). The handling model was even tweaked. And they slightly increased the earnings to ease the grind process.

But whether or not these modifications resulted in a "dramatic improvement" is highly subjective. And I myself did not find the improvements very significant (physics engine still had lots of issues, the lack of SP events wad mind-boggling, and I won't even speak of the online department or the 15s loading times between basic menus).

Dude. You're missing the point by a mile. Forza 2 and 3 have track DLC. But it's almost worthless except online. Single player offline pretty much ignores them. They don't patch the physics, or can't.

Meanwhile Prologue seems to be completely configurable. Add a track, and it snuggles into the game like it was there from the start. This is the point. Not, "I love the new stuff." "Well, I didn't care for the new stuff."

 

[Tornado]

You sure present Forza as some perfect car game, when flaws and bugs in cars are ported straight over from Forza 1 intact, never fixed in three games

You mean like the bugs transferred from GT4, to GTPSP, and then to GT5? There are a couple dating back to GT3 as well.

 

[Devedander]

Yes, that would be me. You sure present Forza as some perfect car game, when flaws and bugs in cars are ported straight over from Forza 1 intact, never fixed in three games, and you have cars with surfaces that just WILL NOT behave right in the Livery Editor, and all cars to a Premium level, so to speak, as the quality is all over the map. Yeah, outsourcing to third world countries is sure serving Turn 10 well... sure...

I won't bother mentioning how much glossing over any of those problems would have if they were in GT5, but will get straight to the point, I don't defend Forza as being perfect by a long shot and never have... although I don't expect that to sink in to you this time since it hasn't the many times I have told you that in the past.

The point though is whatever the problems with Forza's modeling, you keep bringing up Viet Nam specifically as if that has somethign to do with it... as if Vietnamese outsourcing specifically was the problem... I am going to ask flat out, what is your point and problem with the Vietnamese? Because you make it a point to say Vietname so often when bringing up the subject it can't just be in passing.

Maybe I should just let this lie...

Why, was your response going to be some kind of racism?

 

[HBK]

Meanwhile Prologue seems to be completely configurable. Add a track, and it snuggles into the game like it was there from the start. This is the point. Not, "I love the new stuff." "Well, I didn't care for the new stuff."

The fact that it's possible does not mean that it will happen. I think that was the point of my first intervention here, on that particular subject.

Yes, significant additions were made to GT5p after release, by patching. We'll see if significant additions will be made to GT5, in a similar way (and hopefully, soon).

 

[Terronium-12]

Yes, that would be me. You sure present Forza as some perfect car game, when flaws and bugs in cars are ported straight over from Forza 1 intact, never fixed in three games, and you have cars with surfaces that just WILL NOT behave right in the Livery Editor, and all cars to a Premium level, so to speak, as the quality is all over the map. Yeah, outsourcing to third world countries is sure serving Turn 10 well... sure...

Somehow I fail to see how product outsourcing changes the fact that every car in Forza 3, no matter how some are more detailed than others, have interior views. I don't see how you can even mention bugs and flaws in another game when you've got entire surrounding environments disappearing in GT5 - yes, disappearing. While we're on that subject why even praise the superiority of GT5's interior views when 9 out of 10 times it's too dark in the cabin to see anything, and when you do see things they're either: A. Wrong. or, B. Too dark to really see anything despite transient light seemingly glaring right through the driver's side window; even when there aren't any obstructions to light....you still can see anything as you should.

Also, while you mention flaws in a game, let's discuss the R8 5.2 having a V8 in it's engine bay despite explicitly claiming (as it should be) a V10 badge on the right and left fenders. What about the (I forget the year) NSX that has taillights that aren't even from it's generation? What about the fact headlights serve little to absolutely no purpose for nighttime driving?

The flaws are a mile long, and only seem to be lengthening as time goes on. Now, FM3 isn't perfect, no, far from it...but compared to what GT5 brought to the table (and the lack thereof) Forza has darted ahead of GT in more aspects now that what it originally excelled in.

I could also go on and on about how many of the so-called "features" are broken, awkward, half-assed, skewed, and nonsensical, but I'm sure you're already aware of those, aren't you?

 

[Devedander]

Somehow I fail to see how product outsourcing changes the fact that every car in Forza 3, no matter how some are more detailed than others, have interior views. I don't see how you can even mention bugs and flaws in another game when you've got entire surrounding environments disappearing in GT5 - yes, disappearing. While we're on that subject why even praise the superiority of GT5's interior views when 9 out of 10 times it's too dark in the cabin to see anything, and when you do see things they're either: A. Wrong. or, B. Too dark to really see anything despite transient light seemingly glaring right through the driver's side window; even when there aren't any obstructions to light....you still can see anything as you should.

Also, while you mention flaws in a game, let's discuss the R8 5.2 having a V8 in it's engine bay despite explicitly claiming (as it should be) a V10 badge on the right and left fenders. What about the (I forget the year) NSX that has taillights that aren't even from it's generation? What about the fact headlights serve little to absolutely no purpose for nighttime driving? How about the fact that both the LP640 and the LP670-4 handle nothing like 4WD vehicles?

The flaws are a mile long, and only seem to be lengthening as time goes on. Now, FM3 isn't perfect, no, far from it...but compared to what GT5 brought to the table (and the lack thereof) Forza has darted ahead of GT in more aspects now that what it originally excelled in.

I could also go on and on about how many of the so-called "features" are broken, awkward, half-assed, skewed, and nonsensical, but I'm sure you're already aware of those, aren't you?

While we probably shouldn't turn this into a GT5/Forza problems face off, it does amaze me the gaul (or I guess tenacity - no pun intended) of some of the fanbase that even after everything that has happened with GT5 the (for lack of a better word) snobbery towards other games is still so strong.

I would have thought GT5 would have knocked every down a few pegs but that's clearly not the case... it seems some just can't be humbled.

 

[Terronium-12]

While we probably shouldn't turn this into a GT5/Forza problems face off, it does amaze me the gaul (or I guess tenacity - no pun intended) of some of the fanbase that even after everything that has happened with GT5 the (for lack of a better word) snobbery towards other games is still so strong.

I would have thought GT5 would have knocked every down a few pegs but that's clearly not the case... it seems some just can't be humbled.

Of course not.

Just pointing out that GT5 is far from perfect. How I miss the days of GT and GT2, yes, there may have been a steep hill of glitches, but that's when PD had something to prove....now, it just seems they think the masses will be pleased with anything they throw out, no matter how long the development time is.

 

[Luminis]

now, it just seems they think the masses will be pleased with anything they throw out, no matter how long the development time is.

Well, they'd be right about it, wouldn't they?

 

[Gavh]

Man I love threads like this. I played a friends GT4. Bought PS3 solely for GT5. Prologue kept me happy for a bit. Today my lower back is broken from playing too much GT5 sitting all slouched on the couch, hehehe. I'm loving the game. So, I dont have experience with the previous GT's but here's my take on all this.

I have to say I agree with Devedander on some of what he said. Kazunori Yamauchi clearly has a passion for his vision and it shows through the success of this game, but the guy is only human and it wouldn't surprise me if his interest in GT series is waning after all these years. I get a sense of his passion through the game, but also from how grounded the series seems, unlike Need for Speed for example.
I'm just wondering, is it possible that he realised his dream through GT4? Thing is GT is not the kind of project you can just put aside and get back to it when you feel like it and if he had realised his dream at GT4, then the rest becomes about (dare I say), saving face by continuing the series by keeping Sony and the fans happy.

Thing is, I can see the struggle between passion vs profit in GT5. I personally cant see him caring at all about the Topgear test track, Nascar, Go Karting, Rally or even 3D. Some of these could have been included ages ago and the fact that its not a full blown NASCAR/Rally series make it even more of a novelty. The only new feature that makes sense to me is the photo-mode.

 

[Terronium-12]

Man I love threads like this. I played a friends GT4. Bought PS3 solely for GT5. Prologue kept me happy for a bit. Today my lower back is broken from playing too much GT5 sitting all slouched on the couch, hehehe. I'm loving the game. So, I dont have experience with the previous GT's but here's my take on all this.

I have to say I agree with Devedander on some of what he said. Kazunori Yamauchi clearly has a passion for his vision and it shows through the success of this game, but the guy is only human and it wouldn't surprise me if his interest in GT series is waning after all these years. I get a sense of his passion through the game, but also from how grounded the series seems, unlike Need for Speed for example.
I'm just wondering, is it possible that he realised his dream through GT4? Thing is GT is not the kind of project you can just put aside and get back to it when you feel like it and if he had realised his dream at GT4, then the rest becomes about (dare I say), saving face by continuing the series by keeping Sony and the fans happy.

Thing is, I can see the struggle between passion vs profit in GT5. I personally cant see him caring at all about the Topgear test track, Nascar, Go Karting, Rally or even 3D. Some of these could have been included ages ago and the fact that its not a full blown NASCAR/Rally series make it even more of a novelty. The only new feature that makes sense to me is the photo-mode.

Well, since you have no experience with the previous games....rally has been a feature since GT2. The TG track could have been implemented far better than it is (practically making a big deal out of nothing, if I'm to be honest). 3D is 'meh', and the karts go away just as quickly as the TG event does, that's all you'll see of them - I honestly have to ask: why even include them? Only to use them once and that's it? You can't use them online unless it's restricted to just the kart....just, whatever.

I haven't seen any signs of them trying to incorporate drag racing for the umpteenth time (although you can do such yourself with friends) as it failed in both GT2 and GT4. Of all the new features the one probably best implemented is NASCAR, as it seems to be the only that has a series race in A and B-Spec modes. Oh, there's SuperGT as well...but that was to be expected anyway.

 

[Devedander]

Man I love threads like this. I played a friends GT4. Bought PS3 solely for GT5. Prologue kept me happy for a bit. Today my lower back is broken from playing too much GT5 sitting all slouched on the couch, hehehe. I'm loving the game. So, I dont have experience with the previous GT's but here's my take on all this.

I have to say I agree with Devedander on some of what he said. Kazunori Yamauchi clearly has a passion for his vision and it shows through the success of this game, but the guy is only human and it wouldn't surprise me if his interest in GT series is waning after all these years. I get a sense of his passion through the game, but also from how grounded the series seems, unlike Need for Speed for example.
I'm just wondering, is it possible that he realised his dream through GT4? Thing is GT is not the kind of project you can just put aside and get back to it when you feel like it and if he had realised his dream at GT4, then the rest becomes about (dare I say), saving face by continuing the series by keeping Sony and the fans happy.

Thing is, I can see the struggle between passion vs profit in GT5. I personally cant see him caring at all about the Topgear test track, Nascar, Go Karting, Rally or even 3D. Some of these could have been included ages ago and the fact that its not a full blown NASCAR/Rally series make it even more of a novelty. The only new feature that makes sense to me is the photo-mode.

Interesting take and good points.

That whole "realized the dream in GT4" is kind of what I was saying too... like now the GT game series is windmilling along more because it needs to and less because Kaz is driven to.

 

[Lucas]

Yes, that would be me. You sure present Forza as some perfect car game, when flaws and bugs in cars are ported straight over from Forza 1 intact, never fixed in three games, and you have cars with surfaces that just WILL NOT behave right in the Livery Editor, and all cars to a Premium level, so to speak, as the quality is all over the map. Yeah, outsourcing to third world countries is sure serving Turn 10 well... sure...

Irony much? Saying in another thread that I for example make up things in my debates? When you say something like that about someone else? Really?

Have you no shame? Are you that hypocritical? Don't bother to reply if you don't answer the following (or better yet, DO reply, just because I want to see your answer to my entire post): When has Deve ever said or implied Forza is a perfect car game? And I want quoted posts. Irrefutable proof that, Devedander, member of GTPlanet, surely presents Forza Motorsport 3 as some perfect car game.

Take your time. If you do, I'm sure you won't be posting in this thread for a long while.

Why, was your response going to be some kind of racism?

You know it would.

 

[MiniMarco]

I don't think you can compare your project in the garage to 5 gran turismo games... even if you are building a rocket to mars it's no good sitting at 75%. Having the drive to finish something is what makes you successful. You can't do it 5 times without the passion for it.

*Please don't feel offended, I'm just some guy on the internet.

 

[SavageEvil]

Well, since you have no experience with the previous games....rally has been a feature since GT2. The TG track could have been implemented far better than it is (practically making a big deal out of nothing, if I'm to be honest). 3D is 'meh', and the karts go away just as quickly as the TG event does, that's all you'll see of them - I honestly have to ask: why even include them? Only to use them once and that's it? You can't use them online unless it's restricted to just the kart....just, whatever.

I haven't seen any signs of them trying to incorporate drag racing for the umpteenth time (although you can do such yourself with friends) as it failed in both GT2 and GT4. Of all the new features the one probably best implemented is NASCAR, as it seems to be the only that has a series race in A and B-Spec modes. Oh, there's SuperGT as well...but that was to be expected anyway.

I see you are someone who listens to the media more than anything else, Kaz never hyped Karts in GT5, they actually weren't going to be included in the game at all, not even sure how anyone caught wind of it, but the media being sensationalist as usual like to hype things up. NASCAR drivers tend to learn from Karting experience so it ties it with that, drag racing can be implemented, but in GT's current form and not so clear tuning that would be a major let down. Drag racing looks like it needs special attention to be done correctly. NASCAR was put in because it was specially requested by NASCAR to begin with, besides which is bigger NHRA or NASCAR?
Japans own Super GT doesn't even have a series in the game, so why are you complaining at all? This is their home lands greatest racing circuit and it's not even given the attention that NASCAR got in the game. Complain a bit much?!?

GT has grown to be too large, and regardless of what Kaz wants, it all comes down to what Sony says. GT5 was being set up by Sony to save them, they knew that GT would sell loads, why else would they demand the 3D implementation, Kaz had no choice but to agree to that nonsense. You think Kaz would implement 3D in GT5 if he had a choice? Considering how he talked about getting the best visuals out of PS3 by pushing as hard as he could to get native 1080P. Yea before Sony came with this 3D crap, Kaz was already talking about pushing GT5 to native 1080p.

Kaz is human and sooner or later he is going to say to hell with it all, his brain child is being used as a prostitute. The labor of love is being lost out to making money, think about all that has been implemented into GT5 that really weren't his ideas. Think about the side trips to make time consuming and strained ideas work. GTPSP was originally supposed to come out after GT5, guess what Sony wanted it before. So while all of you can complain that Kaz's own dream is the reason, just remember that he was always pushing a big dream on every PS platform he designed a GT game on, so this isn't new territory. It's the other crap that was forced on him that is what is making his dream suffer, look at GT5. Flawed as it is, it does show an incredible amount of passion in the premium cars, the detail is incredible. Hop in one and head over to the Nurburgring with day/night progression and just drive. Make sure you use a FFB wheel else you will miss a great deal of progression in physics department, also put the edge grip to real while you are at it.

While it has it's flaws, it has made it's own strides in GT series legend, the annoying shadowing, the low resolution water spray, the all over the place online implementation, missing features that should have been enabled at launch(mechanical damage), and the leveling system that isn't well balanced as you run out of races to drive rather quickly(there is a slight work around that part, assuming the online update gives you credits for winning races). Hopefully PD can continuously support GT5 with DLC to fix some of the issues, like the shadows and the online and perhaps some older courses(Motegi anyone). One thing I would love to see is a patch that allows us to experienced the physics engine without it's apparent scaled back flag that is definitely on. Don't care what anyone says, it's scaled back for playability reasons and mass market appeal. There has to be a way to turn that flag off so we can get what the BMW and Toyota car companies get built for them by PD to show off their cars handling without actually driving them. Even if that means only one car can be on screen, I want it.

I wished that GT5 wasn't as big, but it is and everyone has their own opinions about it, which they are entitled to. Same breath though, they are still the one's other studios are gunning for when they create a driving/racing game. I stick to console driving for it's simplicity and the fact that I do not want to be bothered with my PC it's old and im not upgrading it to run anything. Pick up and play is how I like things and as time goes on, it's all I have time to do.

 

[Japspecvr6]

Guys I too am alittle unpleased with the game in certain areas but we have to remember Kaz is basically a BIG Manager @ PD, That can be a good thing and a bad thing. Sony is the one who really has control over this whole operation. The game hasnt been out for 6 months yet and people are talking about GT6 (which drives me crazy). Online isnt smooth as yet as far seeing your driving opponent. We have to remember that we are in the next generation of consoles.....There will be updates. As far AI thats needs to be improved tremendously, The Anchor braking & Invisible line is not gonna cut it. There needs to be some randomness to it ASAP. For the Standard & Premium thing they need to update a few of the cult classics in the game. Tuning needs to be over haul dramatically. I hate they have this point and click upgrade system. There needs to a better telemetry some how some way. One rule of development is Never take out only improve. This is where PD Mess up on. Gear ratio's can't be adjusted, Standard rims can't be changed, Psp silhouette isn't there, Blocky shadows and the list goes on. I really can't complain about the 5 year waiting because there were some roadblocks that came up from the main focus. ALL IM SAYING TOO PD IS TOO COMPETE. Stop thinking your the only racing game out there. Bring your professionalism with real world motorsports and you will have " The Realist Racing Simulation"

Thanks

Ryan

 

[Devedander]

I don't think you can compare your project in the garage to 5 gran turismo games... even if you are building a rocket to mars it's no good sitting at 75%. Having the drive to finish something is what makes you successful. You can't do it 5 times without the passion for it.

*Please don't feel offended, I'm just some guy on the internet.

I am comparing lasting enthusiasm for new challenges... whether it's a simple project at home or a career based one at work... I have seen and been through the same thing at both...

I would say that actually GT5 is kind of a 75% (or even less) product as it sits now... so it does do you SOME good, especially if you can market it and get paid full price for it despite being 75%.

As for can't make 5 without passion... that's exactly what I am talking about... you absolutely can do it any number of times without passion... everyone knows someone who just goes to work to pay the bills... doesn't enjoy their job anymore but it's a job. The point of my quesiton was that I dont think anyone questinos Kaz's original passion, but is the passion still strong and holding or is it waning and being directed towards different areas of interest now...

GT5 the way it is looks like it could esaily be the work of too much passion getting in the way of finalizing a product or just as easily too little passion and a series that is showing loss of leadership.

 

[Detroitbb]

Great points, Devedander... and I have to agree with your analysis. I'd also mention that PD spent a vast amount of the past two years fiddling with 3D and I have to wonder how much that 'gimmick' affected the core gameplay aspects (tracks/cars/events).

 

[Tenacious D]

You mean like the bugs transferred from GT4, to GTPSP, and then to GT5? There are a couple dating back to GT3 as well.

Like what? I've heard a few from posters in the past but they weren't what I considered huge errors.

Like I've never race modded a Ford GT in GT2 and had the nose vane appear on only the left side. I've never dealt with a livery editor in a GT game, so I can't compare that, but I haven't been trying to paint a car and have the vinyls behave as if they're in a higher dimension when they cross a certain boundary on the car's surface, or get wonky because I bought a certain bodykit and have to change it because the one I chose just won't behave with vinyls.

I won't bother mentioning how much glossing over any of those problems would have if they were in GT5, but will get straight to the point, I don't defend Forza as being perfect by a long shot and never have... although I don't expect that to sink in to you this time since it hasn't the many times I have told you that in the past.

The point though is whatever the problems with Forza's modeling, you keep bringing up Viet Nam specifically as if that has somethign to do with it... as if Vietnamese outsourcing specifically was the problem... I am going to ask flat out, what is your point and problem with the Vietnamese? Because you make it a point to say Vietname so often when bringing up the subject it can't just be in passing.

My point and problem is that something is obviously wrong with the stuff that Turn 10 has been peddling. Note my examples above. Now Vietnam may be coming along as a developing country, but one thing it is not is a burgeoning field of high technology prowess like Korea, Taiwan and Japan are. I looked, dude, and when I searched for Vietnamese game developers, I found a few little listings for browsers based MMOs. Maybe they're there, maybe you know of some, but evidently even sites devoted to pushing Vietnamese business don't know a thing about them.

If you do, I'm obviously not a bigot against Orientals or I'd be the biggest MS fanboy around. Tell me about these amazing Vietnamese developers, I'm teachable.

Why, was your response going to be some kind of racism?

I don't know, you like to assume a lot of things in my posts, have at it.

Somehow I fail to see how product outsourcing changes the fact that every car in Forza 3, no matter how some are more detailed than others, have interior views. I don't see how you can even mention bugs and flaws in another game when you've got entire surrounding environments disappearing in GT5 - yes, disappearing. While we're on that subject why even praise the superiority of GT5's interior views when 9 out of 10 times it's too dark in the cabin to see anything, and when you do see things they're either: A. Wrong. or, B. Too dark to really see anything despite transient light seemingly glaring right through the driver's side window; even when there aren't any obstructions to light....you still can see anything as you should.

Also, while you mention flaws in a game, let's discuss the R8 5.2 having a V8 in it's engine bay despite explicitly claiming (as it should be) a V10 badge on the right and left fenders. What about the (I forget the year) NSX that has taillights that aren't even from it's generation? What about the fact headlights serve little to absolutely no purpose for nighttime driving? How about the fact that both the LP640 and the LP670-4 handle nothing like 4WD vehicles?

The flaws are a mile long, and only seem to be lengthening as time goes on. Now, FM3 isn't perfect, no, far from it...but compared to what GT5 brought to the table (and the lack thereof) Forza has darted ahead of GT in more aspects now that what it originally excelled in.

I could also go on and on about how many of the so-called "features" are broken, awkward, half-assed, skewed, and nonsensical, but I'm sure you're already aware of those, aren't you?

Interior views: if you like them, you should love GT5's Standard cars. There's a whole thread devoted to them in the Photo Mode section, and they look incredible save for a couple of examples. Frankly I find Forza 3's interiors to be wretched. I would point out that since all the cars are essentially ported from Forza 1 on up, T10 has taken six years to model 500 cars, along with outsourcing to other countries to assist at an unspecified cost to MS.

Disappearing surfaces: I've seen them in PS1 games. And PS2 games. And XBox games. And 360 games. And PC games. I guess you haven't been into games much the past decade.

Interiors too dark in GT5 90% of the time to see anything, or if visible, are wrong: citation needed.

Headlights having little to no use in darkness: not my experience, sorry. Your experience may vary.

LP640 and the LP670-4 handle nothing like 4WD vehicles: I have no personal experience with them, please tell me how they should perform, with examples.

Forza 3 excelling over GT5: perhaps, but the only thing I see excelling is that you can sure make every car a monster by adding 4WD to it. The things I personally would like to do in Forza are crippled by file handling issues and a broken online system. I have noticed that the Forza section in GT Planet isn't exactly a bonfire of activity these days. I haven't explored GT5's online system but I don't expect a lot there to be frank, because SONY just doesn't seem to have the infrastructure in place to handle it, and all the other PSN traffic.

Irony much? Saying in another thread that I for example make up things in my debates? When you say something like that about someone else? Really?

Have you no shame? Are you that hypocritical? Don't bother to reply if you don't answer the following (or better yet, DO reply, just because I want to see your answer to my entire post): When has Deve ever said or implied Forza is a perfect car game? And I want quoted posts. Irrefutable proof that, Devedander, member of GTPlanet, surely presents Forza Motorsport 3 as some perfect car game.

Take your time. If you do, I'm sure you won't be posting in this thread for a long while.

1. I have every right to be as ridiculous as the person I'm debating with.

2. An understanding of sarcasm will go a long way to furthering your career as a self-appointed mod here.

3. I would also recommend you ask for a sense of humor for Christmas.

 

[Terronium-12]

I see you are someone who listens to the media more than anything else, Kaz never hyped Karts in GT5, they actually weren't going to be included in the game at all, not even sure how anyone caught wind of it, but the media being sensationalist as usual like to hype things up. NASCAR drivers tend to learn from Karting experience so it ties it with that, drag racing can be implemented, but in GT's current form and not so clear tuning that would be a major let down. Drag racing looks like it needs special attention to be done correctly. NASCAR was put in because it was specially requested by NASCAR to begin with, besides which is bigger NHRA or NASCAR?

Japans own Super GT doesn't even have a series in the game, so why are you complaining at all? This is their home lands greatest racing circuit and it's not even given the attention that NASCAR got in the game. Complain a bit much?!?

Blah, blah, blah, blah....

Last I checked, Super GT had a 3 race series event in Expert, Level 21 in A-Spec...and it's sure to be in B-Spec as well. That's one thing. The other thing being, where, in that entire sentence of me referencing Super GT (or NASCAR, for that matter) do you see anything remotely similar to, in reference to, or claiming to be a complaint? How about chewing on your thoughts before deciding to type next time, champ?

 

[Devedander]

My point and problem is that something is obviously wrong with the stuff that Turn 10 has been peddling.

Isn't the party line around here "nothings perfect" and "sure it might be wrong but it hardly ruins the game and if you think it does your a whining crybaby and need to leave"? Or do those only apply to one game?

Note my examples above.

Note the entire bugs and glitches thread. Outsourcing may not be creating perfect results but then again keeping it in house seems not to be fairing that well either... and it takes a lot longer.

Now Vietnam may be coming along as a developing country, but one thing it is not is a burgeoning field of high technology prowess like Korea, Taiwan and Japan are. I looked, dude, and when I searched for Vietnamese game developers, I found a few little listings for browsers based MMOs. Maybe they're there, maybe you know of some, but evidently even sites devoted to pushing Vietnamese business don't know a thing about them.

No offense but are you saying a few innacuraces like an S2000 hood being a little too bent or tail lights being a slightly wrong angle is a sign of some sort of massive failure? With the amount of GT5 apologizing and excusing going on around here I thoght we were ready to start being reasonable in what we level complaints at... or is that only for some games also?

If you do, I'm obviously not a bigot against Orientals or I'd be the biggest MS fanboy around. Tell me about these amazing Vietnamese developers, I'm teachable.

Well they allowed a company facing a dominating incumbant to create a huge roster of decent to good looking cars for their game that, despite having some flaws, turned out pretty well all things considered.

I don't know, you like to assume a lot of things in my posts, have at it.

When I do it's because your ramblings make so little sense that in order to respond I have to take my best guess at what you might mean. But when it's really bad I just ask you for clarification... but I don't know why I think that's going to work when you've never really improved your posting or response technique yet...

 

[Akira AC]

It seems that finally became a FM vs GT thread,so keep it on topic,besides the problem of the outsourcing in countries like Vietnam is not the limited technology,the problem with this countries is that they don't have access to "the real things" like a real Lamborghini reventon or a real McLaren F1,besides FM3 used scanning technology for its models instead of a full recreation(something that we saw in grid,dirt,and shift)so models will be less inferior,but they will be easier to make and therefore more.

As I said before (getting back to the topic) the problem that KY is that maybe he lost focus of how to make Gran Turismo,someone said that PD had 2 teams when GTPSP was in development.

PD only has less than 200 employees,apart from that I thing that this whole GT5 business is a push from Sony to release two GT games under the PS3 platform,GT5 is incomplete because is a huge project with limited personnel,so to don't make it "another prologue" they decided to make "GT5prologue plus"+GT4 HD.

In any case the idea is keep on topic otherwise mods will probably end up looking this thread like many others that went off topic.

 

[ceasarschariot]

i agree with the OP, but of course I dont know. I heard lots about passion for cars , racing, and GT5. However when all the cars sound the same, honda sounds like a jag, jag sounds like a corvette, etc etc. That is not passion. Passion is creating an experience, to capture a C5 Corvette ZO6 for example. Its engine and exhaust note. Giving the driver or even a Corvette enthusiasts the personality of that car as much as possible in the game. In GT5 you have the C5 Zo6 Corvette, but all the passion is lost, the soul is ripped from the car when it sounds like some sort of computerized jibber jabber distortion.

I continue to put time in with GT5, I do like the physics, I do like the tracks, but the personality of the cars are dead. And to me this is one example of no passion. Even take the Subaru Impreza WRX Sti, a car with a very unique exhaust note, in GT5 the sound of this car is depressing. All one has to do is pop in Dirt 2 and take the same model for a blast done the road and the WOW factor kicks in !! Like WOW, im driving a STI !! Sounds just like it.

So yeah, I would agree, passion in as for as what im touching on would be to capture ( as much as possible ) the very soul of an automobile (make/model) and present that in GT5. But we find outselves knocking on the door of 2011, and GT5 is not even remotely close to achieving this.

I will enjoy the other highlights of GT5, but like the OP was touching on, I also agree and one example would be the sound of each car is empty or lifeless.

Fine game though, C+ in my book !

 

[Devedander]

It seems that finally became a FM vs GT thread,so keep it on topic,

I swear tennacious has some kind of freak power when it comes to turning a thread into a Forza Vs GT thread...

He's like this guy except you end up talking about forza and GT instead of loosing your clothes and bike

 

[Tenacious D]

No offense but are you saying a few innacuraces like an S2000 hood being a little too bent or tail lights being a slightly wrong angle is a sign of some sort of massive failure?

Darn it, you're right, that's all I mentioned.

Well they allowed a company facing a dominating incumbant to create a huge roster of decent to good looking cars for their game that, despite having some flaws, turned out pretty well all things considered.

Thank you for listing those Vietnamese companies. Now I can use them in my next book report.

 

[Akira AC]

I swear tennacious has some kind of freak power when it comes to turning a thread into a Forza Vs GT thread...

He's like this guy [Vid] except you end up talking about forza and GT instead of loosing your clothes and bike

hahaha, except that the chocolate bar is filled with toothpaste instead of delicious caramel.

 

[Devedander]

hahaha, except that the chocolate bar is filled with toothpaste instead of delicious caramel.

W....T....F....

 

[Tornado]

Like what? I've heard a few from posters in the past but they weren't what I considered huge errors.

PT Cruiser modeling errors, being the GT3 example from off the top of my head.
In regards to GT4 -> GTPSP -> GT5, I could come up with plenty of examples. Taillight glitches, for example. Or laughably incorrect car specifications (for example, the 4000 pound Volvo 240. Or the 320 HP Shelby Series One "Supercharged" which the little data paragraph acts like a retard wondering out loud where the extra horsepower came from). Or the literally dozens of cars with incorrect specifications due to the incredibly lazy Americanization of many of the JDM cars.


You might consider these minor compared to the problems some of the Forza cars are saddled with and a lot easier to fix, but that is all the more reason that PD should have fixed them before GT4 even came out, let alone 6 years later for the sequel. It isn't particularly hard for the average person to look this stuff up, so I can't imagine what PD's excuse is when they have basically an open door policy for whatever cars they are allowed to model by manufacturers.

And, hell, it isn't as if all the Premium models are perfect either.

 

[Akira AC]

W....T....F....

A whole mess like GT5