Do you think perhaps Kaz's interest in GT as a game is actually waning? (TITLE EDITED

[Devedander]

The usual Tenacious wall of text is coming.


Dev, you sure think strangely, and this is why people have so much trouble dealing with you sometimes. Your above example is a great example. You just kind of glom a bunch of notions together which have nothing to do with each other.

You realize I said they were entirely to illustrate the plausability and not infer that it's what actually happened right? And I don't just glom random notions together, I put togehter a plausible string of events that, in the vacuum of actual insider knowledge that we all pretty much live in, are as reasonable to consider as any as long as you bar preconception of some kind of infalability.

And yes, PD modelers and coders did build and paint the car - virtually - and assign parameters to it, but it was just one car. There was no mention of whether a group of modelers and programmers went on the expedition too, and I'm assuming they didn't. Maybe you do, but we have no indication of this, and it would make sense that they didn't because this was Adrian's baby and he had his own team of designers there. It was a PR-slash-dream inclusion, and as such involved the PR and advertising people of SONY Computer Entertainment.

Too little is known to assume anything either way... it could have been the fastest built ever, with a 3D scan done of a model car and redbull engineers calculated and input all the values for the physics engine for PD or it could have been a drawn out project that took a lot of involvment and work from all parties infolved being creative and thinking through details.

Unlike you I am not assuming either way, I am just saying we don't know but here's what's plausible.

I suppose you could say that when Kaz was galavanting around the world, that the team back in Japan just kind of did whatever the heck they wanted to because The Master was gone and the kids could run free. Crazy ideas were proposed and acted on without any guidance from their boss. But that would be a pretty hard supposition to support.

And you blame me for gloming on to random ideas

I said perhaps we were seeing less of a team leader in Kaz... which is far from the kids run crazy. Do you ever get tired of putting words in my mouth to make a point?

You do this kind of random thinking too much. It's like when you mentioned a few days ago about NASA taking bids on production work for their stuff and signing cheaper bidders, and how this caused no small problem for Apollo 13. Yeah, true. But then, isn't this the same issue when I mention Turn 10 hiring work from Vietnam? Bottom dollar versus quality? But no, you and Lucas have to turn it into racism instead of dealing with the substance of the matter.

First off it wasn't random as it clearly was related to the point (cost vs return) and secondly I questioned why you brought up Vietnam evey time as if THAT in particular and not the outsourcing so much was the problem... it seems very much you have a thing against Vietnamese in that sense.

And as I said, you keep arguing the Vietnamese outsourcing was cheap and bad for the final result and I pointed out the flaw in your logic that is evidenced right in GT5: The entirely in house done game has plenty of flaws of it's own, many of which are on par with the flaws we have seen in the Forza series.

BTW that's where that ends, I am not letting you drag this back into a Forza vs GT thing again as you are so good at doing.

You just pick and chose stuff, decide what's relevant in your discussions arbitrarily. By the way Lucas, go (somewhere) and (do something). Have fun with that.

I pick and choose stuff that IS relevant to the disucssion... it's just you like to dismiss things that counter your points.

I have a feeling you've mentioned that the online system is broken because PD just wasn't focused on what to do with it, rather than the fact that SONY didn't have the online structure in place they hoped they did to handle GT5.

1: I don't get why we must differentiate so much from Sony and PD when they are so closely tied.

2: Sony doesn't have the ability to support the online infrastructure for one (albeit very large) game? Now who's just guessing and throwing things out there...

Let's discuss this. It's assumed that there was some kind of disconnect between PD and SONY with how much traffic could be devoted to the game.

FTFY

GT5 is way too connected to the internet, even to the point that the menu system is.

I don't think you understand how stuff like this works... an application can dial home and an unexpected connection failure may lock up the system on whatever screen its on. This does not mean THAT SCREEN was trying to dial home.

So on the first day or so, we were told to unhook our PS3s if they weren't running smoothly. Something I unfortunately missed because I hadn't got around to installing my game till saturday, but oh well. Anyway, the network SONY has in place now couldn't handle the online game Kaz wanted to build, which sounded like something even BIGGER than GT4 by a quantum leap. He wanted all that, user race builder tools, online leagues and seasons as well, not just a bunch of private servers and leaderboards. Unfortunately, SONY has to invest a bunch more in their PS Network for this to happen. Right now, it just can't. So the online team had to cobble something together, which right now isn't a whole lot. Sad but true.

I won't bother going into detail about how that's just a random bunch of ideas, but I will briefly touch on the fact that based on my understanding of network connectivity your idea falls somewhere between unlikely and inplausiable.

Yes, bad communication, bad planning. Because Kaz got tired and was losing interest in GT5? Sincerely doubt it. What do you think?

I wrote two long posts about what I think on pretty much that subject exactly.

And my point is that this has happened all through GT5. As mentioned above, the PS3 is extremely powerful but skimpy on ram. You might be surprised to know that I was on the PS Universe boards way back in 2006 saying it really needed about a gig.

I'm not... a lot of people are always everywhere telling companies what they need to put more of in. Not saying you don't obviously seem to know your hardware specs and all, just saying I am not surprised.

Thus, the whole team had to drop work on GT5 for GT PSP. This has obviously been a bad thing.

I have heard otherwise and we have seen that a lot of PSP assets were used in GT5 so it's not as cut and dry as that.

I don't see GT5 as suffering at all from a man who has grown tired of dealing with a son causing problems because he's entering his pre-adult years, allegorically speaking. Nor because Kaz couldn't wait to get out of the office and get away from GT, though I'm sure it was a much needed breath of fresh air. Everything I see is because Kaz is at the mercy of a storm of issues which rained on his banquet. Maybe I'm more wrong, and maybe you're more right, but I don't see any evidence which supports your side. And I think I have better support for my position.

In some ways we see it differnetly but in some ways we see it the same... it sounds like ultimately we do agree on one thing and that that is that priorities in multiple areas are pulling him in different directions... how directly responsible that is for a lack of direct enthusiasm for a certain project seems to be our main difference.

This is a bit random, but... Do you guys remember the Nintendo 64's Expansion Pak? Doubling the RAM it had for various games?

I mean, the HDDs are already exchangable, making the RAM/VRAM upgradable wouldn't be too bad of an idea for the upcoming generation of consoles, imho.

I would think this blurs the line between (and thus a strong part of the draw of) consoles vs PCs.

Also I have to wonder how well external connectors can keep up with the main bus speed.

 

[bodger]

You know, laying out the content without keeping the hardware in mind isn't an excuse, it's a plain moronic fault.

People would lose their jobs if they did stuff like that at the company I'm working at.

If they hadn't have kept the hardware in mind, they'd have delivered a piece of software that was doing 15fps and crashed every few minutes.

Getting this amount of detail running at the high frames GT5 achieves is not a 'moronic fault'.

 

[Devedander]

If they hadn't have kept the hardware in mind, they'd have delivered a piece of software that was doing 15fps and crashed every few minutes.

Getting this amount of detail running at the high frames GT5 achieves is not a 'moronic fault'.

Funny you should mention that:

http://www.eurogamer.net/videos/gran-turismo-5-frame-rate-analysis

Frame rate is often far below 60FPS and there are plenty of reports of crashing and freezing (I have had both) with GT5.

It's not 15fps and crashing every few minutes, but that's hardly a realistic marker for failure either... if you have to exagerate that much to make a point, you don't have a point.

BTW what GT5 does (under some circumstances and on certain tracks) achieve is no excuse for what it fails to do elsewhere and across the board. You could build the gorgeous TajMahal but if you put a toilet in the kitchen it would still be a moronic fault.

 

[gaming25]

Too little is known to assume anything either way... it could have been the fastest built ever, with a 3D scan done of a model car and redbull engineers calculated and input all the values for the physics engine for PD or it could have been a drawn out project that took a lot of involvment and work from all parties infolved being creative and thinking through details.

Unlike you I am not assuming either way, I am just saying we don't know but here's what's plausible.

So why the heck did you bring it up?????

 

[Akira AC]

Funny you should mention that:

http://www.eurogamer.net/videos/gran-turismo-5-frame-rate-analysis

Frame rate is often far below 60FPS and there are plenty of reports of crashing and freezing (I have had both) with GT5.

It's not 15fps and crashing every few minutes, but that's hardly a realistic marker for failure either... if you have to exagerate that much to make a point, you don't have a point.

BTW what GT5 does (under some circumstances and on certain tracks) achieve is no excuse for what it fails to do elsewhere and across the board. You could build the gorgeous TajMahal but if you put a toilet in the kitchen it would still be a moronic fault.

I have to disagree on this because I already have raced 16 premium cars in wet during day nigh transitions (nurb) and I was performing lights flashing and if there was framerate drop it was unnoticeable,framerate becomes a problem when is noticeable and affects gameplay,something that GT5 hasn't show (yet).

And it seems that older PS3 have older processor technology which make them more susceptible to high processing charges,that is why many old PS3 and GT5 are presenting failures,the game runs perfectly on newer generation PS3 slims so is down to PD to develop a processing compatibility update,to avoid the number of failures reports which are exaggerated as many of other things on GT5.

 

[Devedander]

So why the heck did you bring it up?????

Ummm because I was listing things that were PLAUSIBLE not necessarily likely or certain?

Do you even read the threads or do you just jump in and comment on some random thing?

BTW you never followed up in the other thread about where the game say sleaderboards and matchmaking...

I have to disagree on this because I already have raced 16 premium cars in wet during day nigh transitions (nurb) and I was performing lights flashing and if there was framerate drop it was unnoticeable,framerate becomes a problem when is noticeable and affects gameplay,something that GT5 hasn't show (yet).

And it seems that older PS3 have older processor technology which make them more susceptible to high processing charges,that is why many old PS3 and GT5 are presenting failures,the game runs perfectly on newer generation PS3 slims so is down to PD to develop a processing compatibility update,to avoid the number of failures reports which are exaggerated as many of other things on GT5.

Well quality of eyesite and what you notice is subjective, you can't lie with what the computer detects at digital foundry.

That said I think it's interesting, maybe my eyes are more sensitive but I detect an almost CONSTANT jerkiness in the game. I think this may be due to sitting so close to the screen and the fact it' a fairly high resolution (the higher the resolution the smaller the difference betwen frames must be to not see a noteable jump between frames) but I actually had to turn on the 120hz trumotion feature of my TV to make the game not feel strangely jerky. Even then it's pretty bad (I don't think trumotion works well with game stuff - I assume it has to do with no motion blur confusing the trumotion engine).

Again maybe my eyes are sentive but I notice tearing almost every race, I notice frame rate drops almost every race, and I don't recall the last time the screen felt truly smooth as I drove around.

In comparison I loaded up GT4 on my PS2 1080i over component and it's buttery smooth (not as clear obviously but smooth).

 

[kyleh613]

Kaz is perfectionist..

End of story.

If GT5 is anything to go by, clearly not.

 

[gaming25]

Ummm because I was listing things that were PLAUSIBLE not necessarily likely or certain?

Do you even read the threads or do you just jump in and comment on some random thing?

BTW you never followed up in the other thread about where the game say sleaderboards and matchmaking...

In order to accuse someone of something you have to know what was the case, and it was showed that you didnt. An X1 being made is hardly "plausible" to make a case for Kaz's lack of focus. Then accusing tenacious of doing what it was you bought up was pretty low. All he was doing was saying what mightve happened in response to your claim.

"BTW you never followed up in the other thread about where the game says leaderboards and matchmaking..."

Because I simply forgot, you can gladly tell me what it was if you want to. Also, speaking of not appearing in threads, it would be great to see you in that thread about what you think is cool about GT5 thread. To see what it is you do like in this amazing game.

 

[gaming25]

If GT5 is anything to go by, clearly not.

He had a time frame to make a massive game. It mightve been "perfect" in 2 years, but who cares since it basically would be the same incredible game and not worth waiting 2 years to get all standards premiums. And nothing is "perfect", many games have been "perfect" and not were a good game at all.

 

[Tornado]

It doesn't take 2 years to do basic QA work.

 

[Akira AC]

Ummm because I was listing things that were PLAUSIBLE not necessarily likely or certain?

Do you even read the threads or do you just jump in and comment on some random thing?

BTW you never followed up in the other thread about where the game say sleaderboards and matchmaking...



Well quality of eyesite and what you notice is subjective, you can't lie with what the computer detects at digital foundry.

That said I think it's interesting, maybe my eyes are more sensitive but I detect an almost CONSTANT jerkiness in the game. I think this may be due to sitting so close to the screen and the fact it' a fairly high resolution (the higher the resolution the smaller the difference betwen frames must be to not see a noteable jump between frames) but I actually had to turn on the 120hz trumotion feature of my TV to make the game not feel strangely jerky. Even then it's pretty bad (I don't think trumotion works well with game stuff - I assume it has to do with no motion blur confusing the trumotion engine).

Again maybe my eyes are sentive but I notice tearing almost every race, I notice frame rate drops almost every race, and I don't recall the last time the screen felt truly smooth as I drove around.

In comparison I loaded up GT4 on my PS2 1080i over component and it's buttery smooth (not as clear obviously but smooth).

I swear that I play on 1080p on plasma(bravia)TV,but still no framedrop,and yeah GT4 seems to be more fluid,what I do found instead of framedrops is sort of more fluidity when you're playing from bumper cam(the one that I use normally),both le mans and nurburgring run pretty smoothly when I'm on bumper cam,also I tried to freeze the game by creating a mad track and putting premiums on it, didn't work but it made the game to "miss" the loading of elements in the background,that(thus far) and some low poly textures are the only technical failures that I found on GT5,the rest seems to run smoothly and right.

I'm still yet to test the "introduced" damage on online play,that should drop frames or at least I think so but I don't find any big lobbies to make these tests.

 

[Devedander]

In order to accuse someone of something you have to know what was the case, and it was showed that you didnt. An X1 being made is hardly "plausible" to make a case for Kaz's lack of focus. Then accusing tenacious of doing what it was you bought up was pretty low. All he was doing was saying what mightve happened in response to your claim.

I don't think you know what plausible means.

"BTW you never followed up in the other thread about where the game says leaderboards and matchmaking..."

Because I simply forgot, you can gladly tell me what it was if you want to.

It says it on the box and it says in in the manual. Go check it out... btw it showed you were online for half an hour after I posted in that thread and it showed you back in that thread within that half hour

Also, speaking of not appearing in threads, it would be great to see you in that thread about what you think is cool about GT5 thread. To see what it is you do like in this amazing game.

I have been knee deep in what makes GT5 awesome for years now... needless to say I don't need to help the cool stuff thread along... everything cool in GT5 (and more) has been said for years now.

 

[gaming25]

I don't think you know what plausible means.

I do. Anyway, you did exactly what Tenacious did, the only difference is that Tenacious just said that in order to tell you his take on what mightve happened. And then you went off about him acting like he knew exactly what happened with the F1 car.

It says it on the box and it says in in the manual. Go check it out... btw it showed you were online for half an hour after I posted in that thread and it showed you back in that thread within that half hour

Yes. But there is only one thing that it could be made to say what you were saying (matchmaking), all of the other things are being patched or were a typo (in the manual, which is not false advertising). And dont accuse me of avoiding something simply because I forgot about the discussion we were having.

I have been knee deep in what makes GT5 awesome for years now... needless to say I don't need to help the cool stuff thread along... everything cool in GT5 (and more) has been said for years now.

And out of the goodness of your heart, you remind us daily about the shortcommings of GT5 . Give me a break. There is no reason why you are in a GT5 forum and dont even say anything great about the game at all.

 

[Devedander]

I do. Anyway, you did exactly what Tenacious did, the only difference is that Tenacious just said that in order to tell you his take on what mightve happened. And then you went off about him acting like he knew exactly what happened with the F1 car.

You really don't read what you respond to do you? He said:

And yes, PD modelers and coders did build and paint the car - virtually - and assign parameters to it, but it was just one car. There was no mention of whether a group of modelers and programmers went on the expedition too, and I'm assuming they didn't.

That's the difference and why I said you can't tell either way.

What I said was plausible and not assumed to be true at all. This is where knowing what plausible means is importnat and why yet again you are wrong.

Yes. But there is only one thing that it could be made to say what you were saying (matchmaking), all of the other things are being patched or were a typo (in the manual, which is not false advertising). And dont accuse me of avoiding something simply because I forgot about the discussion we were having.

First of all how do you know it was a typo? Or are you just making up what you would like to be true to defend PD again and then saying it's a fact? And first it was just about PSN and not about GT5 and now it's a typo? Do you realize how ridiculous your excuses and denials make you look? I mean seriously, there are not shortage of denialists out there, but you aren't even doing it well.

And a typo that is carefully worded out in multiple places? What about invite friends from within game? What about B spec online with other Bspecs? What about events online? Were those all typos too?

You do realize that it's on the producer to verify the accuracy of their claims right? Otherwise there would be no point to false advertising laws, everyone would just say "oh that? It was a typo, off the hook!".

And out of the goodness of your heart, you remind us daily about the shortcommings of GT5 . Give me a break. There is no reason why you are in a GT5 forum and dont even say anything great about the game at all.

I am amazed at the amount of words you can get to come out of your rear end! I have said positive things about GT5, but like everything else you bring up, you assume and then say without knowing. Just becaause you haven't come across what I have said doesn't mean I haven't said it

And you act as if I am the only one who has negative things to say and like i am making it up or something... hello, do you realize almost all the negative threads around here are made by people besides me? So that kind of means that I am not being unreasonable but rather that I am just one of many who all see the truth despite your attempted defense force tactics.

So back on topic, do you have any actual input (that's not assumption phrased as fact) about whether Kaz may have less interest in GT as a game?

 

[gaming25]

You really don't read what you respond to do you? He said:



That's the difference and why I said you can't tell either way.

What I said was plausible and not assumed to be true at all. This is where knowing what plausible means is importnat and why yet again you are wrong.

That's grasping straws. You blasted him for still "assuming" which is still an "assumption" of what "might have" happened.

First of all how do you know it was a typo? Or are you just making up what you would like to be true to defend PD again and then saying it's a fact? And first it was just about PSN and not about GT5 and now it's a typo? Do you realize how ridiculous your excuses and denials make you look? I mean seriously, there are not shortage of denialists out there, but you aren't even doing it well.

And a typo that is carefully worded out in multiple places? What about invite friends from within game? What about B spec online with other Bspecs? What about events online? Were those all typos too?

You do realize that it's on the producer to verify the accuracy of their claims right? Otherwise there would be no point to false advertising laws, everyone would just say "oh that? It was a typo, off the hook!".

I meant to say that it was something that probably wasnt intended to be in the book at all. It might as well have as much use as a typo, since it couldnt be false advertising (in the aspect of selling something purposely you know isnt in the game). You dont false advertise something in the manual of a book.

I am amazed at the amount of words you can get to come out of your rear end! I have said positive things about GT5, but like everything else you bring up, you assume and then say without knowing. Just becaause you haven't come across what I have said doesn't mean I haven't said it

That is something I cant disagree on, since we only debate about this, so you are right about that.

 

[Tenacious D]

You realize I said they were entirely to illustrate the plausability and not infer that it's what actually happened right? And I don't just glom random notions together, I put togehter a plausible string of events that, in the vacuum of actual insider knowledge that we all pretty much live in, are as reasonable to consider as any as long as you bar preconception of some kind of infalability.

Well, but that one situation you postulated doesn't even make sense to me. You know,

Cause: Kazunori spends time with Adrian Newey and the Red Bull team to design the ultimate hypothetical but realistic car. SONY allocates budgeting and ad market resources for this.

Effect: fewer Premium cars and tracks are made.

Look, supposedly you know how the business world works. And admittedly, SONY has been very strange with the entire PS3 marketing thing. Some of it has been brilliant with more internet focus, where kids live much of their lives these days. Some was "WTH were they thinking??" SONY has been doing a lot of event involvement, because it's an exposure multiplier, as the events take this Gran Turismo branding and spew it all over the world. I think this was one of their better ideas. The Red Bull thing I think is more a Kaz lust thing, wanting to see what a legendary car maker could do with a blank canvas with no rules outside the bounds of reason. But Kaz and Red Bull both leveraged this to their mutual advantage.

Yes, you can argue in the abstract that this money could have been used to hire more modelers, which SONY definitely needs to fund. BUT, SONY does have to spend some money on marketing. The funds and resources were going to be spent on GT5 exposure no matter what, not more staff at Polyphony. So I still call it a lame thing to bring into the discussion.

Too little is known to assume anything either way... it could have been the fastest built ever, with a 3D scan done of a model car and redbull engineers calculated and input all the values for the physics engine for PD or it could have been a drawn out project that took a lot of involvment and work from all parties infolved being creative and thinking through details.

Unlike you I am not assuming either way, I am just saying we don't know but here's what's plausible.

I'll give you points for tenaciousness.

But honestly, this is just one car. I'd be hard pressed to see how the work to perfect an imaginary vehicle in a video game could be anything like the work to virtualize properly the vintage real life race cars we have in GT5. Red Bull went the extra mile to build a non-working model of their dream car. But the Ford Mark IV, Ferrari P330 and Jaguar XJ13, as well as numerous vintage cars could be even more of a headache to render properly on the track because they have to match historical performance. And I doubt they ran museum quality rarities like them at race speed on a track to get a comparison, like they can with a Nissan GT-R or Mercedes.

(me) I suppose you could say that when Kaz was galavanting around the world, that the team back in Japan just kind of did whatever the heck they wanted to because The Master was gone and the kids could run free. Crazy ideas were proposed and acted on without any guidance from their boss. But that would be a pretty hard supposition to support.

And you blame me for gloming on to random ideas

I said perhaps we were seeing less of a team leader in Kaz... which is far from the kids run crazy. Do you ever get tired of putting words in my mouth to make a point?

Well, I'm not sure what else to say. I have to come up with something to explain your viewopoints. You know, most of the time over the past five or six years, Kaz was there. You insist he might have been getting discouraged and disengaged, and that this affected how Polyphony did their job and what they produced. And I just think this is the strangest reason to ponder for why this Gran Turismo is so different from the others and so weird.

I pick and choose stuff that IS relevant to the disucssion... it's just you like to dismiss things that counter your points.

You'll have to cite some examples of point dismissing. I'm obviously spending a lot of time typing about something in this thread.

Whittled:

(me) ...rather than the fact that SONY didn't have the online structure in place they hoped they did to handle GT5.

2: Sony doesn't have the ability to support the online infrastructure for one (albeit very large) game? Now who's just guessing and throwing things out there...

(me ) Let's discuss this. It's assumed that there was some kind of disconnect between PD and SONY with how much traffic could be devoted to the game.
GT5 is way too connected to the internet, even to the point that the menu system is.

I don't think you understand how stuff like this works... an application can dial home and an unexpected connection failure may lock up the system on whatever screen its on. This does not mean THAT SCREEN was trying to dial home.

Okay, let's discuss this some more. Yes, I assume that SONY and PD were on different pages when it came to how GT5 was going to run on the PSN. But it's pretty clear that the way that the very menu structure of GT5 is linked into the PSN if you would read the GT5 News on the subject. And I quote:

Currently the online services of Gran Turismo 5 (GT5) is experiencing some extreme online traffic congestion.

Because GT5 performs online access not only when participating in online races and using community features, but also when starting the game and during the various screen displays in GT Mode, unfortunately this online congestion is also affecting standard gameplay.

. . .

* Also, some of the following features have been limited intentionally as a measure to temporarily alleviate some of the network traffic. Due to these limitations, you will find that:
- The viewing and update of the [Log] in the Community section of GT Mode has been temporarily disabled.
- Changes to the Profile may not update in some cases.
- Changes to the Friend List may not update in some cases.

Currently we are simultaneously working on several different solutions to improve the network status and alleviate the network congestion as soon as possible. We are expecting to be able to provide a proper online service again soon.

Because of this, I'm assuming that not only do we not get a huge online structure for a while, we aren't even getting leaderboards, something that is in place for Prologue.

(me) Thus, the whole team had to drop work on GT5 for GT PSP. This has obviously been a bad thing.

I have heard otherwise and we have seen that a lot of PSP assets were used in GT5 so it's not as cut and dry as that.

Well, yes, but you're missing what I'm saying. I'm saying that without GT PSP cratering GT5 development for some time, GT5 would have had more content, Premium content no less, and/or been delivered earlier. Yes, with the GT5 delay and decision to include Standard car ports, GT PSP assets were sure handy.

In some ways we see it differnetly but in some ways we see it the same... it sounds like ultimately we do agree on one thing and that that is that priorities in multiple areas are pulling him in different directions... how directly responsible that is for a lack of direct enthusiasm for a certain project seems to be our main difference.

Yeah, that is what debate is all about. I know you see a worn out Kazunori, and I see a frustrated Kazunori, and for different reasons entirely, but it sure has given us a strange game either way.

I have a post to make towards SONY in the morning, I do want to get some racing in before bed, but you're sure welcome to add your two bits in on that.

This is a bit random, but... Do you guys remember the Nintendo 64's Expansion Pak? Doubling the RAM it had for various games?

I mean, the HDDs are already exchangable, making the RAM/VRAM upgradable wouldn't be too bad of an idea for the upcoming generation of consoles, imho.

Yes I remember that, and the Bulky Drive for the N64 too, interesting items that saw little or no support.

I actually did want to see the PS3 be completely expandable like a PC before it was released. While I think a PS3.1 would be a good idea, it depends on SONY. And as much as this may surprise a few people, While SCE are probably a pretty swell bunch, SONY Corporate are a bunch of money grubbers.

If PS4 isn't too far off, an expanded PS3 is unlikely because it takes some of the glitz and glam away from a PS4. But, if Ken Kutaragi made the PS3 expandable, and with more ram it's almost a new machine, then PS3.1 could even be the PS4. I'm thinking that the PS4 is coming though, with a beefier Cell or whatever, 2 - 4 gigs of ram and the equivalent of a GeForce 260 with a gigabyte or so all to itself.

 

[Devedander]

Well, but that one situation you postulated doesn't even make sense to me. You know,

Cause:

Kazunori spends time

with Adrian Newey and the Red Bull team to

design the ultimate hypothetical but realistic car

. SONY allocates budgeting and ad market resources for this.

Effect: fewer Premium cars and tracks are made.

So Kaz spends time to design a car... that's not something that could potentially take from his time elsewhere? I mean designing a car is no small project...

And it doesn't mention who modeled said car... again it's possible Redbull hired guys to do all the work, and it's possible PD used it's guys to do all the work (which fits better with the everything in house theory) and in the process of designing a car who knows if they ahd these modelers working and reworking design choices.

If you don't understand how that COULD take a lot of time from any number of different areas, then your reasoning ability is just too low for me to help you with.

And beyond that, the original point was that the X1 was in the game possibly due to marketing tie in pressure or desire... the time it took to model the X1 could have been used to model at least one other premium car... something more people would appreciate than a one off 20mill car that you can only win on a challenge a lot of people will never beat.

Again what I am saying is that it's plausible that decisions are influenced based on desires from other parts of GT or business in general... influenced in directions away from the original passionate dream of Kaz's

It the begining he might have said "this is a game about the every day cars people see and own" but now it might be "I want to expand marketing tie ins and profits, so what cars I allocate time to working on is decided less by my passion like it was in GT1 and more by my ambition to expand marketing".

Are you telling me that's not plausible?

But honestly, this is just one car. I'd be hard pressed to see how the work to perfect an imaginary vehicle in a video game could be anything like the work to virtualize properly the vintage real life race cars we have in GT5. Red Bull went the extra mile to build a non-working model of their dream car. But the Ford Mark IV, Ferrari P330 and Jaguar XJ13, as well as numerous vintage cars could be even more of a headache to render properly on the track because they have to match historical performance. And I doubt they ran museum quality rarities like them at race speed on a track to get a comparison, like they can with a Nissan GT-R or Mercedes.

It's just one example to illustrate a plausible type of distraction from the main game. Any number of similar (or different) scenarios could exist, I was just giving one to show one way that thinking outside the box can generate alteranate and plausible cases to get where we are today. That's the whole point of this thread.

As for historical accuracy... considering the accuracy of a fair number of cars (from weight to power) is off anyway... that would be unfortunate if that's all that was holding them back.

Well, I'm not sure what else to say. I have to come up with something to explain your viewopoints. You know, most of the time over the past five or six years, Kaz was there. You insist he might have been getting discouraged and disengaged, and that this affected how Polyphony did their job and what they produced. And I just think this is the strangest reason to ponder for why this Gran Turismo is so different from the others and so weird.

No you don't, as long as you don't just keep dismissing the reasons I give for what I say. I said how he might be more of a boss and less of a team leader. Go back to my mailroom promoted to VP analogy... people and their personalities can change depending on their circumstances. I am sure we have all worked in the presense of someone focused on his passion and picked up some drive from being arund that person, and also worked around someone not focused on a passion but perhaps spread between many responsibilities... there is less or no drive there... it's like the coach of a football team, if he loves the team and the sport, the team will get energy from him, if he does it to pay the mortgage and also does 2 other side jobs, the team will suffer for it.

You'll have to cite some examples of point dismissing. I'm obviously spending a lot of time typing about something in this thread.

Can we make this a gimme? I don't have the time to do it either...

Because of this, I'm assuming that not only do we not get a huge online structure for a while, we aren't even getting leaderboards, something that is in place for Prologue.

Yes and I understand that and I thought I covered it when I said that just because the freeze happens while on that screen doesn't mean it's tied to what you see on that screen. It's entirely possible the game just phones home constantly, every 15 seconds or something, who knows.

Have you ever had your computer seach the A drive for a floppy when it's empty? I am not sure it happens anymore in win7, but back in the XP and before days, this 5 second long or so search would freeze the whole computer up while it looked.

I wrote a program once that was supposed to intelligently check to see if the file structure of a disk you were assumed to have in the drive had changed.

Stupidly it did this every 30 seconds automatically. I thought this was smart and it worked brilliantly while a disk was in.

Turns out, when you took the disk out, you ended up with 5-10 second freezes while your A drive churned away every 15 seconds. This obviously sucked.

It happened whether you were accessing something that required the info form the A drive and it happened if you were on the main menu, it happened ALL THE TIME.

The solution was to always have a floppy in the drive.

Similarly when a network connection is attempted a lot of negotiating is tried to get it to go thorugh and the process can take a long time to time out... during this time it can hose the entire system.

It's entirely possible something similar to my A drive fiasco is happening with GT5 phoning home and the solution there is to just disconnect from PSN, thus the system gives up right away on the connection instead of trying over and over to renegotiate having to time out every time.

Wel, yes, but you're missing what I'm saying. I'm saying that without GT PSP cratering GT5 development for some time, GT5 would have had more content, Premium content no less, and/or been delivered earlier. Yes, with the GT5 delay and decision to include Standard car ports, GT PSP assets were sure handy.

No, I got what you were saying, but I was saying I am not sure GTPSP really cratered GT5 all that much if at all and if you consider how much content was recycled from GTPSP int GT5 that's shared dev time and you can't count that against GT5.

Let's say I am writing a computer program and a large part of it is to design the main menu graphics and icons. Then my boss says "hey, make this Ipad version also" and I make the icons and graphics for the ipad version but use them for the PC version also. That portion of work had to be done anyway so it's not like you can count it as lost time due to the iPad version being thrown on me.

Also if I recall the team was either split or added to to work on GTPSP which agian reduces the "lost" time to GTPSP.

That is what debate is all about. I know you see a worn out Kazunori, and I see a frustrated Kazunori, and for different reasons entirely, but it sure has given us a strange game.

I have a post to make towards SONY in the morning, I do want to get some racing in before bed, but you're sure welcome to add your two bits in on that.

And it could well be the frustrated and not the distracted or worn out, it could be a combination of both or neither... I am just putting it out there as a possibility.

 

[RC45]

But the Ford Mark IV, Ferrari P330 and Jaguar XJ13, as well as numerous vintage cars could be even more of a headache to render properly on the track because they have to match historical performance. And I doubt they ran museum quality rarities like them at race speed on a track to get a comparison, like they can with a Nissan GT-R or Mercedes.

I believe Kaz has driven all three.

 

[gaming25]

And it could well be the frustrated and not the distracted or worn out, it could be a combination of both or neither... I am just putting it out there as a possibility.

But at the end of the day, I hope you both realize, is that we dont know. Just like for any other video game.

 

[Devedander]

But at the end of the day, I hope you both realize, is that we dont know. Just like for any other video game.

Yes... that's why this thread is titled "Do you think" and not "Did you know"

 

[Destinkeys]

I guess we are divided into two camps. One of them thinks that the extra stuff in the game didn't make any difference to how the game is now. Others, and I have to place myself in this camp, think that extraneous things (let's face it, would the omission of the X1 make the game worse?) HAVE diluted the focus on the GAME itself.

Personally, I am NOT a big stickler for the whole graphics thing. Good enough is good enough. But if dynamic shadows and lighting distracted Kaz from simply making the AI behave like cars, and not tanks, it was the wrong decision. If 3D distracted Kaz away from having matchmaking, and XP for online racing (if damage is going to cost you to repair, there HAS to be a reward system to make sure you can afford to do it) it was a bad decision. If coding for the Course Designer took away from time to model more Premium Cars, or simply fix the shadow rendering, ditto.

I am one of those that think that almost the ENTIRE focus at PD was 'Make things LOOK good, and perhaps they won't notice how flawed the actual gameplay is'. But AI that doesn't ramp up in ability as you enter faster cars, is STUPID. Being unable to easily set up Spec Races online is STUPID. Rewarding you for winning Challenges by awarding you the type of car you had to BUY to participate in the challenge is STUPID. Oh, and let's make every Premium car LOOK just like the real thing (but forget about livery-ing it up to LOOK like a race car, not a POS daily driver), but let's make it SOUND like a vacuum cleaner...

Maybe it's just me, but I like to play racing GAMES... Not admire a photo realistic model driving around in a game that is flawed at best. Most of us, at the rate we are playing it (from what I've read!) we'll have run through just about every challenge by New Year's. What's going to be left to do? Online is what kept me playing Shift LONG after I'd beaten every challenge. But online in GT5 is a joke. But hey! You all got a Red Bull X1 to look forward to at Level 40, don't you..?

So, back On Topic, how can you NOT feel that Kaz's focus is gone, when game aspects are ignored, but we get 1080p dashboards and fictional race cars?

 

[FN]

I think he forgot that when the console changes you have to redo everything for the new system (and there was a huuuuuggee jump from the 2 going to the 3 and big difference in coding.. Gee thanks mr Cell. Then after you've done the basics or the stuff that was already there you finally have the ability to do more.. Kaz just went for more without doing the first bit. And with a stupidly big game like what he is trying to achive why didnt he get more people working for him, and with sony paying out huge amounts of money towards a game thats going or in this case already has sold like crazy and moved playstation 3's of many a shelf.. Also with a game this big he could of given some companys small parts of the game to do.. just keep good quality control on everything with a team of people doing that.. theres only so much he can do and i think its more kaz is stretching thin and trying to achive too much with too little. And thats what gt5 feels like. A big cake. But You only eat so much cake at a time and when you cut up for cake and only one part of the slice is anygood.. you just dont bother with the rest. Its like a cookie as you Americans call it, but with no choc chips!

[edit]

The post above me = win.
One thing to add to that is the game stops at level 24. Then there are the enduro classes in there later on. But it feels like hundreds of races to go on to get you up to the endro and missing.. and from 24 onwards they said.. well sony is on our back and we are just going to have to go gold with whats there..

 

[Nielsen]

I was not comparing them, I was noting a parallel... you will note I said that I have experienced the same occurance both in my hobbies as well as my jobs.

It's just human nature and as such it will exist in all areas.

Well, I have also felt that my jobs didn't interest me but still I felt a duty to get the job rightly done.

 

[RikkiGT-R]

In my opinion, the game does indeed feel unfinished. As far as cars go, you really couldn't ask for more than 1000+ but I would've been happier with 300 or 400 premium models instead of 250-ish plus a plethora of 'standard models' (I just don't see the logic).

There are a minuscule amount of races in comparison to GT4, and that is probably the most disappointing aspect of the game. In fairness though (and this applies only to me because I can only speak for myself), once I've completed all the races I will carry on buying and tuning cars and trying to perfect my driving; it's something I enjoy probably more than anything else in Gran Turismo; just me, a car, an empty track and a stop watch. And it's always been the time trials that kept me playing GT over the years.

I'll go back to an earlier post in this thread where someone said that On each new console, the second game has always been a vast improvement on a previous game. GT5 is PD's first attempt on the PS3 (setting aside prologue as it is basically a demo) and so we can't be too harsh.

I myself was wrong for expecting GT5 to be 'perfect'. I'm disappointed by the shoddy AI, the basically non-existent damage model and the inability to upgrade brakes (as well as a few other gripes). It's far from perfect, but it won't be the final GT ever made and I still love it more than my own mother.

 

[Lucas]

The usual Tenacious wall of text is coming.

I predict an absurd argument is coming.

You do this kind of random thinking too much. It's like when you mentioned a few days ago about NASA taking bids on production work for their stuff and signing cheaper bidders, and how this caused no small problem for Apollo 13. Yeah, true. But then, isn't this the same issue when I mention Turn 10 hiring work from Vietnam? Bottom dollar versus quality? But no, you and Lucas have to turn it into racism instead of dealing with the substance of the matter.

My predictions were correct!

Find a post in which I said anything about racism. Don't worry, I will make it easier for you by quoting each and every post I made in this thread.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=4263089#post4263089

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=4266029#post4266029

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=4271991#post4271991

Three posts, out of which only one belonged to the actual conversation between us three (Deve, you, and me). The second one you may say was a post of mine turning the topic onto racism. But hey, I'm still very interested in what you wanted to reply to Deve but you thought it would be better to "let it lie". It's a valid question the one he made, and the answer I gave to him is valid too, since you answered "I don't know". So yeah, there's a chance it would be a racist response, and that's enough, considering it shouldn't be one at all. The substance of the matter? IF by that you mean that T10 did wrong by deciding to farm work to other countries, then yes, I suppose it did. But considering GT5 wasn't any better by having its own house do the work, I suppose it didn't do wrong at all.

Keep in mind I haven't yet eaten the ones you put earlier, so don't put words in my mouth again. Oh, I know. You were being sarcastic, and as the Rules of the Internet say, you have every right to be as ridiculous as the person you are debating with.

You are wrong.

You just pick and chose stuff, decide what's relevant in your discussions arbitrarily. By the way Lucas, go (somewhere) and (do something). Have fun with that.

I would like to know what do you mean by "somewhere" and "do something".

 

[Devedander]

Well, I have also felt that my jobs didn't interest me but still I felt a duty to get the job rightly done.

I find a duty to do the job right often doesn't yield results as good as a true focussed passion for the task... How about you?

 

[Racer Dee]

PD should really pay attention to this thread. REALLY

 

[Tenacious D]

...again it's possible Redbull hired guys to do all the work...

...X1 was in the game possibly due to marketing tie in pressure or desire...

Again what I am saying is that it's plausible...

...Are you telling me that's not plausible?

It's just one example to illustrate a plausible type of distraction from the main game. Any number of similar (or different) scenarios could exist, I was just giving one to show one way that thinking outside the box can generate alteranate and plausible cases to get where we are today...

And it could well be the frustrated and not the distracted or worn out, it could be a combination of both or neither... I am just putting it out there as a possibility.

You're starting to sound like Dan Greenawalt.

I started to sort through your post but I see how it's developing, and I really don't have the time or will to sort through endless possibilities. And frankly, anything is possible. Aliens could have been involved, that's not impossible. And since nailing down what is possible or plausible versus what is impossible or at least unlikely is a virtual impossibility... *breath* I think I'll just leave it at this.

The greatest likelihood regarding the state both GT5 is in and Kazunori-san is in is "conflicted." In other words, GT5 was at the mercy of SONY intruding with demands on Polyphony and Kazunori. Producing GT PSP first, making GT5 3D, etc, things that caused massive eruptions in workflow and put extra stress on the team to produce or else. If Polyphony had been free to focus on making the game they wanted for five plus years, GT5 wouldn't be in the shape it's in. In fact, 3D seems to have had a huge impact on graphics. The marvelous image processing in Prologue replays has been cut back a lot in GT5, and very few races have 16 cars in them, if any! I haven't gone through everything in GT5 yet, but so far my biggest field is 12 cars.

As for Kaz getting involved with car events, motorsports and scratching out ideas with a professional car designer, I see no downside to this. In fact, just getting away from the corporate atmosphere of SONY suits has to be a good thing. Kaz isn't a business guy, he's an artisan. The only time I ever saw him looking stressed out was when he was holding the PSP to unveil GT Mobile at E3 2009. In fact, he looked about ready to cry. It looks to me that he hated that decision by SONY as much as anything. At least to me it's plausible.

Polyphony getting more involved with the auto and motorsports world, from designing the GT-R displays to the Red Bull X1 and motorsports in general, has only been seen by people in the biz as a good thing.

The biggest reasons that there isn't more Premium content in GT5 is because Polyphony wasn't large enough. And if you know economics, the biggest cost factor in any endeavor is employee pay and benefits. And if the product you produce is virtual, the factor is even higher. Kaz did run up a pretty big bill on top of that with all the research that went into making GT5, and I'm glad SONY did pony up the estimated $80 mil to produce it, but I have a feeling that Kaz had some pretty intense negotiations to get the funding he did for the 20 or so additional people he hired in 2008. Obviously he needed many more modelers, but who knows how much that would have bloated the budget? And forget outsourcing. It didn't happen, is likely to never happen, and the cost is not small. And pricing for modeling work done from scratch is entirely different from producing bulk physical product, so don't go there.

Regardless of what you insist the PSN should be able to handle, it obviously couldn't as my news paste previously stated. The GT5 as originally envisioned as an online playground can't exist right now, so a skimpy single player game couldn't be made up for by an incredible online game. And many of us have discussed why putting most of their eggs in the online basket was a bad idea anyhow, but it's a little late for that.

I wish that I had a time machine so I could drag Kaz from 2005 into the future to show him what would happen if he let things get away from him. Of course, then there's the whole paradox problem, so maybe it's a good thing I don't have one.

Anyhow, my scenario at least sounds plausible.

 

[Luminis]

GT5 was at the mercy of SONY intruding with demands on Polyphony and Kazunori.

That's probably the 'excuse' (for the lack of a better word) I've read the most on here, so far. Dunno, do you really think it's all Sony's fault? With Kaz being SCE's vice president and all, it seems kinda, you know, unlikely.

I'm not dismissing the option entirely, but I don't think it's like PD and Kaz are just the victims of big, bad Sony. After all, Kaz is Sony. To a certain extend.

 

[Tenacious D]

Well, Kaz is an employee of SONY. Until he becomes the president or buys it outright, he still has to obey the board and pres himself. And if you know anything about Japanese corporate/social politics, it's a very confining system. You basically do what you're told unless you're irreplaceable. And even Ken Kutaragi, the father of the Playstation, wasn't.

But even then, you're right that you can't blame it all on SONY. It's pretty obvious that GT5 was a work in progress for various reasons until the last few months, so... look what we got.

Even so, and I know this is as "what if" as one of Devendander's suppositions, but I have to think that if Kaz and his team hadn't been yanked around during those last five years, GT5 would have been a different game.