Do you think the "competition" ever crosses PD's mind?

[Exorcet]

I'm against rewind. It's just plain stupid and ultra-arcade-ish. If you crashed your car, you CRASHED.

In GT5, if you crash, you keep going like nothing happened.

Rewind is perfectly acceptable in a sim for one simple reason, you don't have to use it. So it makes the sim no less realistic. If you're racing for real, don't use it. If you're testing something push the rewind and let it help you figure out the car/track/whatever.

I understand wanting to keep arcadyness out of GT, I feel the same, rewind isn't an arcade feature though.

GT5 always been the series that introduced new stuff in its own particular way. Of course we need those well done, and I bet that when we get stuff like the livery editor it'll be implemented in a different way. People dislike paint chips... for me its ok, because in 80% of times when my friends go to paint a car, they simply pick a color and say: I want the Imola Yellow from Audi. I want the orange from Lamborghini. I bought my bimmer and its Estoril Blue. In real life, works like that. Because painters/repair shops already have the color codes from these cars, its just easier.

The paint system isn't realistic at all. A paint shop doesn't require you to go buy a car to get a color that you can only use once, and they have far more than manufacture colors (which they probably don't even have because the manufacturer would own those colors).

It's simply useless to want that GT5 become just one more game in the crowd. That will not happen. It's GT after all. People say Forza its a better "game", I agree. But unfortunatelly Granturismo never was a "game". As a simple "game" with objectives and all it fail. But when GT is done right its great for those who like it. GT4 is a good example on that, I could never finish mine, but I always have stuff to do if I want. Since day 1, since GT1... it's always like that, new stuff came just to add more stuff to the same package. Love or hate, that's how it works.

No one wants GT to become just another game in the crowd. We're asking for the opposite. PD can keep all the old elements of GT, just let the player decide if that's the path they want to go or not.

I also play lots of racing games. Gt is far sueprior to Forza. It has nothing over GT except customization and some option which I think are unnecessary.

You're forgetting the millions of things people have listed before that Forza has over GT. Also, you're not the whole fanbase. The fanbase does find the customization and many other things necessary, so they are necessary.

 

[cuco33]

So I guess having cockpits on all cars, better car audio, more tuning and upgrade options, better career, storefront, auction house, etc are "unnecessary" to you?

I highly doubt you've every touch a forza or xbox in your life with the things you say.

Don't mind kimi... I don't think anyone believes he's put more than 5 minutes in at some GameStop/Walmart/Best Buy kiosk into any Forza game.

 

[el_posto]

GT5 woundn't have sold so many copies if it wasn't called GT, the history of the game, and it's large fan base helped it stack up the sales. This game, with this many flaws would never have the same success if was called "somthing racing".
All in all, it's hard for us hardcore gt fans to admit tha FM4 will be a kick ass game, maybe better than GT, it really makes me sad (sadder becaus I don't own a 360) to know GT5 will be surpassed by another racing game title, it really does.
Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love GT5, love it so much I've started it all again, but I don't think I'd still continue to love GT if PD keeps throwing games like GT5 at us, I was really disappointed with GT5....

 

[phil-t]

What community? newcomers want to put all their favourite features into GT. Classic GT players want a full finished GT game with all the promised features not a bastardized version of the game.

The competition does not have all the responses that's because Kaz is looking for real input from the fan base. Also aside of that there are planned features that don't need any voice to be added, just time.




Then read this:
http://www.caranddriver.com/feature...omparison_3a_gti_and_m3_at_laguna_seca_page_2

I've always maintained GT's physics strength is the high level feel of the car, and that is largely all the very cursory exploration those car journo's are doing.. i.e. how loose and difficult it is to control the car from sliding around etc..


If they actually used a FFB Wheel (they may well have, but this shows how they certainly aren't an authority I'd rely on to assess anything other then cursory high level impressions), the most immediate thing they'd have noticed in GT5 in their front wheel drive GTI is "woah, why can't I feel the front tyres at all".. In FM, you can feel the steering unload as grip diminishes, you have a nice transition phase where the scrub is increasing and you can feel/hear and see that happening, it's how you optimise slip angle when maintaining momentum.. This was driven home to me last night when I did Amar's Immaculate challenge in the Fiat 500 Special Seasons, absolutely zero tyre feedback, no sense of transition, you either understeer, or not, as numb as it gets..

And here's a few oddities in the article

In Forza, for example, the GTI absolutely refused to exhibit anything resembling bad behavior—you’ll notice our less-experienced player turned the faster lap in the VW—turning in crisply no matter the entry speed

Total rubbish, in Forza, all you get is understeer, if he was turning in crisply, then he was going too slowly into the corner.. We all know FM has too high a grip level, especially rotationally..

Forza’s physics engine, however, doesn’t feel as comprehensive, as if it were using the one that was employed in Gran Turismo 3 A-spec or GT4 (10 or so years ago!). The experience, to me, is more of an arcade game.

I can see where every GT Fan gets this statement from !.. seriously, he thinks it's akin to GT3? Yeah, he's seriously not clue'd up is he?

so I ran with whatever it gave me. I did about three laps with each car, so the tires in GT5 were hot and performing their best for the timed laps; the properly warmed sport tires in Gran Turismo felt about the same as the normal tires in Forza.

If he'd had tyre/damage set to simulation in FM, he'd have even more so heated his tyres up in the 3 laps, so clearly something isn't right, he either turned off tyre sim (otherwise tyres are always optimum), and in fact in all my A-Spec and event races in GT5, I've never noticed my tyres slowly heating and any real effect from them..

I think the slight advantage in lap times in Forza can be attributed to the tire-wear issue in GT5, in addition to the care you must exercise with the throttle coming out of corners. It’s too close to tell whether the minor discrepancies between the digital Laguna Secas played a part.

??? It's not the flippin obvious in your face difference in grip levels from the tyres then? It's apparantly the 'tyre wear' supremacy in GT5?, which again is something even more prevalent in FM3, unless you gimp the settings that is..

And Cuco may even have a point, no compatible steering wheel shown, in fact the photo shows someone sat down with a pad in their hands, can't understeer cars in FM3? Hmm..

But this isn't really GT5 vs FM3, it's more that GT5 still has a lot of gaping holes in it's physics in several areas that some of the competition do better, and I'd love if Kaz did look at these and strive to flesh out the physics.

And specifically, it's the low level nuances of tyre modelling I'm mainly interested in seeing improvements, it's all very well having a loose car that just slide really easily and gives you a challenge, but when racing or hotlapping seriously, you have to drive the car on the limit, and to do that you need the feel/feedback and good transitionary grip modelling to allow you to do this..

Oh, and also for the record, I've watched a lot of the FM4 video's, and I honestly think they still haven't made the car loose and challenging enough, any new tyre physics may be a welcome improvement to serious racers/hotlappers, but the more Jeremy Clarkson style drives (Sliding sideways at every oppertunity shouting 'Powaaaaaahhhh") still wont like it.

Personally, my nirvana would be a mix of the two.. but that's clearly just me..

 

[newbielives]

If Turn 10 gets the physics right in Forza4 and turns off the freaking permanent active steerin diving aid, I would be very worried if I were Polyphony.
From the FM4 videos, it looks like they have mostly caught up to GT5 on the graphics front. Feature wise, Forza3's AI was already much more enjoyable to race against.

Now if Turn10 can match the track surface detail provided by GT eg the bumps on the nurburgring, I would be ******** in my pants as a GT fanboy.
Lets see what they come up with and for god sake, PD give us a freaking downhill mountain track. How many kids in love with iniitial D would buy the game for that alone which is probably one of the main reasons Forza is doing ok in japan.

 

[Skiddy]

If Turn 10 gets the physics right in Forza4 and turns off the freaking permanent active steerin diving aid, I would be very worried if I were Polyphony.
From the FM4 videos, it looks like they have mostly caught up to GT5 on the graphics front. Feature wise, Forza3's AI was already much more enjoyable to race against.

Now if Turn10 can match the track surface detail provided by GT eg the bumps on the nurburgring, I would be ******** in my pants as a GT fanboy.
Lets see what they come up with and for god sake, PD give us a freaking downhill mountain track. How many kids in love with iniitial D would buy the game for that alone which is probably one of the main reasons Forza is doing ok in japan.

I will not believe for one second that PD worries about anybody other than the Sony head suits. Think dude, GT5 has been in the production for 5 years.
They've had all the time to review the competition and build in those features that FM has.

GT6 is probably going to be a more complete game. I bet the Sony suits will make sure of that this time arround...

 

[NEOPARADIGM]

In my opinion they ruined it when they dedicated 50% of the game to Spec-B ... That disk space and the time they wasted we could of have extra tracks (from the previous versions), more premium cars.

I'm no fan/defender of B-Spec, but I have a hard time believing there was any wasted time or disc space involved with its creation. That'd be like saying the option watch Madden in CPU vs. CPU mode wastes disc space and dev time.

 

[Tireseas]

50% of GT4 was dedicated to B-Spec as well for those who've forgotten. The only differences between the two were that the selection between modes has been made more prominent, the GT5 B-Spec races offer different rewards (that could just as easily be bought outright without ever touching B-Spec), and there's a trophy for the B-Spec crap (do you honestly believe GT4 would not have had one too if PSN had existed?) .

To answer the initial topic, yes I do believe the competition crosses PD's mind. Often times at precisely the wrong time. Which is likely why they do, frankly stupid, things like promising more than anyone could deliver in a reasonable time and changing their dev targets mid cycle.

 

[FyreandIce]

Oh, and also for the record, I've watched a lot of the FM4 video's, and I honestly think they still haven't made the car loose and challenging enough, any new tyre physics may be a welcome improvement to serious racers/hotlappers, but the more Jeremy Clarkson style drives (Sliding sideways at every oppertunity shouting 'Powaaaaaahhhh") still wont like it.

That can be entirely due to the very same feel in the tyres you mentioned above. You can actually feel when they are going to lose grip and drive accordingly. In the short time I played GT5 at a friends house, there was absolutely no feel in the front tyres. You just turn in and keep turning sharper until you hear the horrible tyre sounds then back off a little. well, actually, from my experience, you didn't need to back off because even if you were turning way too sharp, the cars turning circle would remain constant.

If you turn too sharp in FM3, you start to lose grip and understeer. It wasn't all that much of a difference with a pad but even with the steering assist, it was quite easy to replicate with a wheel.

 

[Pierced Lead]

50% of GT4 was dedicated to B-Spec as well for those who've forgotten. The only differences between the two were that the selection between modes has been made more prominent, the GT5 B-Spec races offer different rewards (that could just as easily be bought outright without ever touching B-Spec), and there's a trophy for the B-Spec crap (do you honestly believe GT4 would not have had one too if PSN had existed?) .

Umm no. You could have completed the entire game without even touching B-Spec, and many have.

 

[SolidSnakex]

GT6 is probably going to be a more complete game. I bet the Sony suits will make sure of that this time arround...

If the suits do anything then it should be convincing Kaz that outsourcing isn't a bad thing. That's really the major issue with GT's development. PD's desire to build everything inhouse slows down development. They could use an outside studio to build a good chunk of the cars and track assets (PD should make sure to handle the actual track surfaces for all of those) while PD could focus more on building the game. I remember Kaz saying that around 60% of the studio was focused on building the cars. Which is an amazing percentage considering that PD really isn't even that big of a studio.

With some outsourcing we'd not only get GT6 sooner but we'd also get a lot more content because PD wouldn't have to stress out over building every single aspect of the game.

 

[shirakawaa]

My main argument against a rewind feature is that online you wouldn't be able to use it. It wouldn'be fair after all. So why make it available offline? To make those races further easier, as if they weren't already (no tire wear, no cold tires, no fuel consumption and load, dumb AI, grip reduction outside the track not set to realistic, no damage, etc).

 

[Tireseas]

Umm no. You could have completed the entire game without even touching B-Spec, and many have.

And you can complete GT5 without ever touching B-Spec, in game percentage wise. The only thing it counts for is the PSN trophies, and the only reason you didn't have to deal with those in GT4 is they hadn't been created yet.

 

[Kryz11]

Things I will write here is not that I hate GT5 or PD team, but Its good that GT5 has competition as well good for players to have more choice now then GT series alone on consoles...

Something tells me FM4 will beat GT5 by a half mile.

GT5 has better graphics still, but environments itself luck. Although GT5 vs FM3 for example, GT5 has more realistic track layouts. Look at Suzuka and NurRing for examples GT5 wins by a mile. FM3, more interesting to look at, but those some of the real layouts are just bad!

I was just playing FM3 last night and I noticed few things that do way better over GT5. Seems FM3 has a good limited slips. I took a car out a FWD car to a track, and parked it so Left side of the car was on Grass/Drit, Right side of the car was on pavement. ANd I put E-Brake on, and floor it. To my amazment in FM3 only the wheel that was in the dirt spin while other one did not!!! Later I try the right side, and opposite results, Always the wheel at dirt spins!!!. In GT5 I did the same with FWD car, and both wheel spins.... Then I try RWD low power car and try the same. Same results in FM3, and same crap result in GT5!

Seems Only time GT5 limited slip works when you race, Then you can really see one wheel spin more over other.

Another example you can not do burnouts in GT5.. wtf! As well when you are on brake in GT5, turn your wheel left or right, the car does not twists in front suspension, once you let go of brake, go maybe 1 MPH then yurn wheel, then front suspension twists. Seems GT5 has those physics and characteristics but only when in motion. In FM3 and I bet in 4, they always seem to have the characteristics on.

In GT5, Tune up a car to max, Floor it, dont turn the wheel at same time, and what happens? Car goes straight!!! What? so much power the car will bend and twist, in FM3 A powerful or even some low powered cars twist and you have to turn to keep in on the road if you pedal to the metal.

FM4 will use real life tire simulator from Pirelli tires, better sound, better looking enviroments (altho GT5s City courses look very real, but rest sucks and a lot of flat surfaces)

GT5 has nice driving characteristics when going high speeds but its lacking still something, I did not play FM4 but Fm3 seems off as well at high speed driving, seems way easier. Maybe because the auto correction steering is always on.
What else..

Oh In FM3 I was driving down then uphill and I noticed my car to slam down and hit the underbelly, does GT5 do that? No you dont feel it, you just see sparks flying off. Fm3 as well if you drive too fast over a bump, your shocks will damage, in GT5 only time to damage shocks, supension links and etc is when you hit something. GT5 nails how you hit something light and it bends suspension but you cant damage it when you land your car or go over a bump fast.

Did I mentioned sounds? Its as important as physics and Graphics? lol.

Someone correct me on that one. But I hear turn10 studios have double or even triple amount of workers? If so no wonder they come out with new game so very often and they always improve so much. Their goal is same as PDs goal, to create ultimate car game for both hardcore and core oudiances. But PD seems to have about 150 workers, that is very low and Kaz expects too much so no wonder games are great quality but miss half the content when they came out.

When it comes to Day Night cycle I think its faoult of PS3 and Xbox limitations, that is why not all courses in GT5 have rain and day night cycles, and Fm4 seems to have none. Dont blame developers for that one, blame 6 year old + consoles! So I do not care about these features since they are not 100% implemented.

So PD, hire more workers, you have the money, you have SONY support, heck I bet they could get 500 interns that would work 24-7 to create a perfect GT6 game! But they wont do it because Kaz head is stuck up some place dark and thinks only his 150 workers are masters in makings game and wont hire more... Comon Kaz!!

That is why I am slowly switching to FM4!

Seems once FM4 comes out I will play that game more.
Then I will get bored till GT6 comes out, GT6 will keep me for many months busy tilly FM5 comes out and so on!


PS can we make FM4 vs GT5 in this thread? Don't close it, we need some comptition and something Kaz to see that he has some serious competition to worry about. Somone please post some Picture head to head.

Here are some images I would like for someone to take GT5 pics as closely as possible and compare.

http://xbox360media.ign.com/xbox360...e3-2011-forza-4-screens-20110606114013255.jpg
http://xbox360media.ign.com/xbox360...0916/forza-motorsport-4-20110526094950062.jpg
http://xbox360media.ign.com/xbox360...0916/forza-motorsport-4-20110526094944484.jpg
http://xbox360media.ign.com/xbox360...0916/forza-motorsport-4-20110526094947312.jpg

 

[prymet1me]

Nice post NoxNoctis Umbra , now get your shield ready.

 

[Kryz11]

Nice post NoxNoctis Umbra , now get your shield ready.

I do not care. Right now I still love GT5, But I love to try FM4 and how much they rise the bar! I really want FM4 to be far better over GT5 because then maybe Kaz will realize he needs to hire extra workers for a and double the features in GT6. Heck GT6 can have same cars as GT5 as far as I care, just do more body kits, maybe paint editor, racing body kits, race car upgrades, etc, improved low speed and no speed physics, damge, etc etc. Then GT6 will be perfect, oh and hire more SOUND guys haha. Some cars in GT5 sound really good (Ford GT with Race Exhaust sounds great, C63 with Race Exhaust sounds bad!)

 

[prymet1me]

I do not car, Right now I still love GT5, But I love to try FM4 and how much they rise the bar! I really want FM4 to be far better over GT5 because then maybe Kaz will realize he needs to hire extra workers for a and double the features in GT6. Heck GT6 can have same cars as GT5 as far as I care, just do more body kits, maybe paint editor, racing body kits, race car upgrades, etc, improved low speed and no speed physics, damge, etc etc. Then GT6 will be perfect, oh and hire more SOUND guys haha. Some cars in GT5 sound really good (Ford GT with Race Exhaust sounds great, C63 with Race Exhaust sounds bad!)

Yea...you will get it for that also.

 

[Kryz11]

I cant wait to be hated on for speaking the a bit of truth!!!

 

[sparkedglory]

I do not care. Right now I still love GT5, But I love to try FM4 and how much they rise the bar! I really want FM4 to be far better over GT5 because then maybe Kaz will realize he needs to hire extra workers for a and double the features in GT6. Heck GT6 can have same cars as GT5 as far as I care, just do more body kits, maybe paint editor, racing body kits, race car upgrades, etc, improved low speed and no speed physics, damge, etc etc. Then GT6 will be perfect, oh and hire more SOUND guys haha. Some cars in GT5 sound really good (Ford GT with Race Exhaust sounds great, C63 with Race Exhaust sounds bad!)

Good lord you deserve an award.

 

[robbo6]

My main argument against a rewind feature is that online you wouldn't be able to use it. It wouldn'be fair after all. So why make it available offline? To make those races further easier, as if they weren't already (no tire wear, no cold tires, no fuel consumption and load, dumb AI, grip reduction outside the track not set to realistic, no damage, etc).

Oh I agree!! I was just saying that rewind in itself doesn't MAKE a game arcade like. Rewind in GT5 is pointless because there are no serious repercussions to losing control (unless you're facing the wrong way and pressing that damn triangle is required!).

You should never let others ruin a game for you. Fanboys are ALWAYS there, Forza, GT, Microsoft, Sony, Call of Duty, Battlefield, PC, Wii. There are fanboys of everything and they always spew crap out that makes no sense. (GeneralMLD) <--sorry, but that guy is an idiot and no he's not a GTP member.

Anyway, don't let idiots ruin something you enjoy.

There's quite a few here, they drive (pun intended) me mad! They bleat about complaints and whine about it ad infinitum (and have the gall to call the complainers "whiners" such hypocrisy!). Most complaints if implemented by Kaz and PD would make GT5 an absolutely SUPERB game instead of just a good game. Some people are happy with playing the game where it's strengths are...good for them, but others arn't happy with that and express in a place where hopefully it just MAY get through to PD somehow. But the more they don't fix the issues bugging loads of people and instead add useless content like the suits and helmets (yes do them but AFTER the game is as good as it can possibly be) then the more pissed off people will get! If the game was better there wouldn't be the complaint threads and posts for the pillocks to read and then whinge about.

I cant wait to be hated on for speaking the a bit of truth!!!

just don't stop the truth, maybe it'll get through that we all want GT5 to be BETTER than Forza!

 

[vandaliser]

I cant wait to be hated on for speaking the a bit of truth!!!

the truth is that PD have their own design decisions and Turn 10 have their own.

Personally i couldnt care less about livery editors. It's not my thing. The driving is what i want. When i heard GT5 had weather and night racing the driving experience was complete. Given the choice between the two i am glad PD decided to focus on having dynamic weather rather spending time creating a livery editor

 

[iShift]

I cant wait to be hated on for speaking the a bit of truth!!!

Honestly I totally agree with you. Once the honeymoon period wore off of gt5 I felt more and more like this game was a bigger disapointment than anything. I really enjoyed it but it just felt incomplete and things were left out. I for one am looking forward to the competitions racing game and plan on getting it day one. I have no clue when or if a GT6 is going to be released during the life of the ps3, but if history repeats itself. A 6 year wait for an incomplete game will turn me away for good. I personally enjoy the livery editors and customization options in FM games. Not the body kits in general but drive train swaps or engine swaps. Just my 2 cents.

 

[newbielives]

I also think the design philosophy is completely different at Turn 10.

You know if Turn10 was able to do a dynamic day/night cycle with weather, which I don't think they are doing even in FM4 besides the static day/night setting
I would bet 1million dollars that they would also add the feature to set the weather and time of day before a race. Only PD would build in such an incredible day and night cycle and force the player to drive in the rain

 

[Scaff]

No one has an issue with informed debate and discussion.

However a few of these posts stepped over the line and ended up being attacks on individuals and groups, and that is not acceptable.

Argue the point, don't attack the person making it. Those who fail to understand that will draw the attention of the staff and action will be taken against them.

Keep it fair and keep it mature or risk loosing your ability to take part in the discussion.


Scaff

 

[Sele1981]

im excited, looks like they really integrated top gear into the game and had Clarkson do voice work for them.

And for sure guys at PD will see it and hopefully come up with something better for 6

I qoute Kaz "We don´t look to other games"... The worst development strategy on earth... This is so 1950 times...

Seems like the guys from T10 are the only ones who look here and steal our ideas for making GT5 better... Unfortunately...

PD wasted sooooo incredible much with GT5!! HELL they got the Ferrari and Lamborghini license and gave us so less cars from these manufacterers... This is only incredible!

They got the Nascar license and gave us what? An special event and 5 Nascar races...

They got top gear in the game and no leaderboards... No comparing options for real lap times from the stig...

Now they want to convert standard cars to premium? That is so stupid

Nearly 90% of the cars in the UCD are a total waste of Blu-Ray space!

Better they make 400 NEW and actual cars than giving us those old and (mostly) Japanese cars... I mean real new cars!

The big question is still, what have they done in 6 years? 200 premiums and adding night/day and rain? Roma and Madrid are nice tracks but they wasted 2 years for making 2 tracks?

On the other side, I have FM3 and I played not more than 20 hours... They will never reach the quality (physics, tracks, details, love, passion) of a PD game!

I don´t think that FM4 will be an big improvement. I don´t get any racing flair in FM3. It feels not real... When I race the Nordschleife in GT5 it feels so fantastic! Everything feels perfect!

In fact, GT5 is great for hotlapping and photo shooting - FM3 is great for customizing and car porn (mostly great EU/US cars) but not for racing.

I had an much better career mode experience with F1 2010 than with GT5 and FM3 together...

 

[trk29]

You know if Turn10 was able to do a dynamic day/night cycle with weather, which I don't think they are doing even in FM4 besides the static day/night setting
I would bet 1million dollars that they would also add the feature to set the weather and time of day before a race. Only PD would build in such an incredible day and night cycle and force the player to drive in the rain

This is just one of things that has me just saying "Why PD?". I remember hearing that Kaz said we would not know if it was going to rain during a race or not. I ask why not? If the game has the option we should be able to set it. Why put it in the game if there might be a chance we would never see it. If it don't follow real world weather than what parameters make it rain?

There might be a few people out of the millions that this game sold that might actually like to see if they can set a record lap in the rain. And why do they let us set the weather to always sunny not but always raining? And that last part is only in online mode? It's like the game was built around online mode with a option to have a offline mode.

 

[GeneralJesh]

Holy God I just watched the video about the Top Gear integration in Forza 4.
Now I have to buy a Xbox 360

 

[trk29]

Holy God I just watched the video about the Top Gear integration in Forza 4.
Now I have to buy a Xbox 360

Its sad isn't it? We should have that.

 

[Force-Feedback]

On the other side, I have FM3 and I played not more than 20 hours... They will never reach the quality (physics, tracks, details, love, passion) of a PD game!

I don´t think that FM4 will be an big improvement. I don´t get any racing flair in FM3. It feels not real... When I race the Nordschleife in GT5 it feels so fantastic! Everything feels perfect!

In fact, GT5 is great for hotlapping and photo shooting - FM3 is great for customizing and car porn (mostly great EU/US cars) but not for racing.

I think this about sums up the comparison quite nicely! i love the customizing and tuning on fm3 plus the choice of newer cars but it's no GT!

 

[kimi123]

So I guess having cockpits on all cars, better car audio, more tuning and upgrade options, better career, storefront, auction house, etc are "unnecessary" to you?

I highly doubt you've every touch a forza or xbox in your life with the things you say.

Simply because I am not a fan of it you conclude I have never touched 360 or played Forza Although I don't intend to buy 360 or Forza I may give it a try and no I seriously do not care about some of its option. But good for those who like it.