Does PD need to take another look at BOP for N300?

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NosOsH

NosOsH

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NosOsH
I competed in the FIA races last wednesday for the first time in ages. I was all pumped for something different than the dailies. It was N300 on sard. B which sounded interesting, so I proceeded to start testing different cars. I tried the Alpine A110 which was so fun to drive and then I wanted to try the old FC RX-7 thinking hey who knows it could be competitive, but before I even took it on track I saw and remembered how the bop just totally nerfs the car. The game already just automatically makes this car way too unrealistic tail happy but why do they have increase its weight as well to well over 3100lbs. If they just left it at its stock weight and increased its power a little less (295 currently), I think it would compete nicely with more current cars and N300 would be a super fun and varied class.

NOPE! WRONG!
Then i checked the leader boards hahahah and realised only 1 car even matters in N300 and its a race car. The Toyota SF-R. A car that weighs nothing has super low and tuned suspension and Good power to weight. Much better than any other car in the class.
It doesnt matter what they did with the bop of any of the other cars because it wouldnt make a difference as this car is basically lapping 5 secs a lap faster.

ANYWAYS...Rant almost over here...
I just think the N-XX class races could so much fun whith different real cars battling but it cant happen cause there is always 1 OP car that just handles so much better than every other car and has power/weight figures that are just as good or better than the average other cars in the class.
 
All the N XXX system have to be balanced again , it's totally unfair . The good way would be to take again the GT5&6 system of Performance points , with a combination of 2 parameters , weight and power.
The problem is that PD think that people are to lazy to play with a fair performance point system . It's not a perfect system but it's a lot better than the actual . You would need also to allow st custom gearbox because some cars have a lot more performant gearbox than others.
 
The N categories are all awful in terms of balance. If they ever want to half ass balance the road cars then they need to be in their own sub categories as well.
 
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@praiano63 Agreed I think as long as power to weight ratios are matched pretty closely and we had the option to tune the transmissions to compensate for different powerbands, all would be well and fair.
Plus the leaderboards would be varied and it would feel like gran turismo again.
 
PD has given us open N300 Daily Races with custom car restrictions. Last time it was Suzuka and just a handful of cars available; R32, R33, RX-7 et al the usual suspects.

This is a much easier alternative to restructuring the BoP or implementing a PP system. The fact that the FIA event doesn’t have this is just slovenliness on PD’s part.
 
Instead of N-classes or PP they need to have different subclasses like JDM, Classic Muscle, Supercars, Luxury GT Cars etc. or at least keep the N-class system but create more events with restricted car choices like they’ve had a couple times.

I remember back in Beta when the N300 races were being hosted regularly, you could find plenty of car choice from the Hyundai Genesis to the Audi TT and Lotus Evora. Now it’s either the SF-R Racing or the GT40. Anything else just can’t compete because the car choice is too open.
 
Velhadas
They don't really need the classes in sport mode, to be honest. It would be better if they picked 5 or 6 cars per race for us to choose from, than to try and fit these different cars in these groups that only lead to a lack of balance
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Not really, provided that you design a sane system. Gr.1, for instance, could be easily be broken into "Gr.C" for group C cars and a Gr.P for current age prototypes. The same goes for Gr.3 and a lot of cars dropped into the Gr.X black hole.
 
It's not just S-FR, but also other cars like F50, xbow, 996 GT3, Gt40, M4 and supra A90 which already have more superior suspensions, some of them very fast dual clutch transmissions, some very powerful turbos and some more downforce than most other N300 cars, but yet PD still decided to give them very good power to weight ratios, making it almost impossible to keep up with them if you use any other car. But it isn't just in N300, but in all other N classes as well. I can't remember properly, but for some reason Audi R8 if you choose to use it in N400 weigh over 1600KG, with not very big amount of power and it's very slow.
 
I vote for a return to the PP system and then just use N for classification. Let the modern cars be themselves no nerfs and then just allow the older cars to be tuned up into competitveness.
 
They shouldn't be using the N class categories in sport mode as is, at all. They need to split it up like having American Muscle, 90's JDM, hot hatches, and any other category that might have depth. They've started trying it with the occasional Race A but it is such a half arsed implementation that I think they think it's good enough.
 
ShiftingGears
They shouldn't be using the N class categories in sport mode as is, at all. They need to split it up like having American Muscle, 90's JDM, hot hatches, and any other category that might have depth. They've started trying it with the occasional Race A but it is such a half arsed implementation that I think they think it's good enough.
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I'm remembering the time before GT released, when we knew how the class system was being divvied up, and people were pointing out just how asinine and silly the idea of dividing up road cars based on torque ratings or however the hell they do it, and yet...now it's basically become a problem that continues to scream louder and louder in the faces of not only the players, but also of Polyphony.

Frankly, there needs to be an absolute wipe of how the class system as a whole works within GT Sport. Make the road cars follow PP, considering that's probably the best system, and keep the race cars within the group structure.

Make it like Project Cars 2 and further narrow down the Groups to stuff like VGT's, 50 and 60's GT racers, Group C cars, etc. Frankly, this game has a laughably bad class system, and even with the most general experience I have, that being some of the classes within Forza Motorsport and Horizon, even the worst situations in those games really pale in comparison to just how utterly busted the N and some portions of the Group classes are in GT Sport.
 
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As others have mentioned, it needs to limit the cars to those specific classes. No tuning up or down to meet regulations.

According to the vehicle description, The X-Bow's flat floor and rear diffuser, deliver 200kg of downforce at 200km/h. PD would have to model a Caterham RS500 to be any kind of competition for it. The Fireblade from Gran Turismo 4 would be outclassed.

Still, PD have the data to ban that car from competition. I wish the N class cars weren't BoP'd, just use them as is.

One thing PD could do, is make those races Shuffle races. That's be fun!
 
I feel that allowing tuning of the cars would go a long way to sorting things out, however I'm no great tuner so I'm happy to have a one or two make race as that makes it easy for me.
The variety of cars I think tuning would make viable sure would be a nice change though.

Unghh, I so much miss the old GTAuto shop and being able to customize your road car with race spec equipment.
 
After some quick test ,the problem with NXXX BOP is a lot more serious that i was thinking before.
If you take 2 cars : One top car in his BOP and another weaker with this same BOP applied
Then you set both with the same weight / power / torque , at least as close as possible , a way it would not change any performance in real life , and a custom gearbox setted exactly the same way.

Then you go with one car on BMB for example and check the acceleration passing the starting line at 50 kmh for example , accelerating full gas the auto transmition.
Then you take the other car and do the same.
The difference of performance is the same as with BOP. The stronger faster car with BOP on will fly away from the other ghost.
Some cars in GT are just boosted for some reasons we don't know or just by wrong power or / and weight calibration during the build.

Come on Mr Kazunori , at least GT5&6 had this right ..... please , it need a fix ! Perhaps the BOP will work after this.
 
Pickups are now ridiculous cornering gods in N300 -class, especially on low grip tyres... No joke, they are actually quite competitive on short circuits.
Without the lacking top speed they'd be more popular.

I've only seen them in Bop races, so i believe it's the system making them shine in areas where they definitely shouldn't.
With PP -system it was the opposite.

Ok, so just checked that that both pickups are N400, so they were detuned to N300 & gaining an advantage... But still they shouldn't be so agile.
 
This is covered in several threads but all N classes are severely imbalanced. I dont think it's a sufficient way of categorizing the road cars.
 
Due to my recent constatation that even with same power weight ratio , some cars have around 20 % less performance than others , came the idea that it could be a PD mistake between 2 power units HP and KW ????
This difference is 1HP = 0,745 KW and it's more or less the difference between strong and weak BOP for some cars in the game. :confused::confused:
 
Lmao same category that contains XBow and Roadster goddamn Touring Car against likes of Renault Clio and Nissan Silvia.


What the heck? Same with 4C in N200.
 
praiano63
Due to my recent constatation that even with same power weight ratio , some cars have around 20 % less performance than others , came the idea that it could be a PD mistake between 2 power units HP and KW ????
This difference is 1HP = 0,745 KW and it's more or less the difference between strong and weak BOP for some cars in the game. :confused::confused:
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Could be more than that. I noticed this in the Brand Central car description, the power figure is different to what we're given. If there are more cars like this, how much more does that throw off B0P?
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05XR8
Could be more than that. I noticed this in the Brand Central car description, the power figure is different to what we're given. If there are more cars like this, how much more does that throw off B0P?
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In the case of the Ferrari 250 GT berlinetta , the BOP N300 is at 104% power if i remember well , need to raise to 122% to reach the pace of the top 5/8 N300 on suzuka that is my reference track where i have more ghost than anywhhere else.
 
I feel like you might be on to something with different cars performing quite differently even with very similar power/weight. Not only that tho, some cars with very similar weights simply can not corner anywhere near as well as a newer car of similar weight.
I know, I know.... their suspensions arent as modern and their tire widths and probably overall technological rating must be lower, but... the differences seem quite staggering sometimes.
 
praiano63
After some quick test ,the problem with NXXX BOP is a lot more serious that i was thinking before.
If you take 2 cars : One top car in his BOP and another weaker with this same BOP applied
Then you set both with the same weight / power / torque , at least as close as possible , a way it would not change any performance in real life , and a custom gearbox setted exactly the same way.

Then you go with one car on BMB for example and check the acceleration passing the starting line at 50 kmh for example , accelerating full gas the auto transmition.
Then you take the other car and do the same.
The difference of performance is the same as with BOP. The stronger faster car with BOP on will fly away from the other ghost.
Click to expand...
Does the faster accelerating car have a body shape that you'd expect to have lower CdA? That's the main unspecified parameter I'd expect to affect acceleration if power and weight are the same. Having said that, 50kph is quite slow relative to top speed, so that counts against CdA having a major influence at that speed. If we knew the CdAs of the cars you're comparing, I could fairly easily calculate the expected acceleration.
 
breeminator
Does the faster accelerating car have a body shape that you'd expect to have lower CdA? That's the main unspecified parameter I'd expect to affect acceleration if power and weight are the same. Having said that, 50kph is quite slow relative to top speed, so that counts against CdA having a major influence at that speed. If we knew the CdAs of the cars you're comparing, I could fairly easily calculate the expected acceleration.
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I do not think that body shape have a big or even small influence in GT when you look the performance of the big sqaure pickups.... , i did this acceleration experience at BMB , passing the line in first gear with a controlled speed of 50 kmh , using the ghost of the first reference car to compare.
Both car with an equal aproximative weight , power and torque. Also same custom gearbox.
 
praiano63
I do not think that body shape have a big or even small influence in GT when you look the performance of the big sqaure pickups.... , i did this acceleration experience at BMB , passing the line in first gear with a controlled speed of 50 kmh , using the ghost of the first reference car to compare.
Both car with an equal aproximative weight , power and torque. Also same custom gearbox.
Click to expand...
I've concluded in the past that CdA is modelled. For example, I recorded the speed at the end of the start/finish straight at Suzuka for several Gr.4 cars, and an example of two cars is:

Hyundai 388bhp 1377kg 146mph
Ferrari 370bhp 1417kg 147mph

So the Ferrari is heavier and less powerful, but achieves a higher speed at the end of the straight. I attributed this to it having a lower CdA (which is what you'd expect from looking at the two cars).
 
breeminator
I've concluded in the past that CdA is modelled. For example, I recorded the speed at the end of the start/finish straight at Suzuka for several Gr.4 cars, and an example of two cars is:

Hyundai 388bhp 1377kg 146mph
Ferrari 370bhp 1417kg 147mph

So the Ferrari is heavier and less powerful, but achieves a higher speed at the end of the straight. I attributed this to it having a lower CdA (which is what you'd expect from looking at the two cars).
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Torque have some strange behaviors in GTS ...
 
The real cars Cd are:

Ferrari 458: .35
Hyundai Genesis: .32

There are numbers for the 458 downforce drag, but how did PD apply their numbers with the Gr.4 rear wings & front canards and flat floor/undertray?
 

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