Downforce?

[jimj73]

Just wondering what the thoughts are regarding downforce and drifting. Does anyone add a little bit of front wing to help turn in and correct understeer? I myself am undecided as to whether it is a help or a hindrance.

Any comments appreciated.

cheers,

Jim

 

[Niels]

I sometimes try to imagine what it should do to your car, and I always liked the idea to make very low angled fast long corners. So rear downforce would help for the longer faster corners, where the air friction is significantly more present than in normal corners.

Never really noticed it being a help though, or being annoying, but offcourse I havent tested this to the extremes. I'd say test it out:tup:

 

[V8 power]

Never tried
I suppose if you fling the car rapidly into corners then downforce wouldn't affect it that much
Although if you gently Power-Over through the corner then it would help

 

[Boundary Layer]

Never tried
I suppose if you fling the car rapidly into corners then downforce wouldn't affect it that much
Although if you gently Power-Over through the corner then it would help

You've got it entirely backwards. Power over is easiest at low speeds in low gears - and wings are at their least effective at low speeds. It's all about mechanical grip at that point.

You'll feel the effects of downforce the most at high speeds [downforce increases proportional to the square of your velocity as a function of your wings planform area (inclination)]. A little front downforce can help to nudge the rear of the car out - but I prefer not to use downforce when I don't have to because it can result in a car with radically different personalities at low and high speeds. On something like the approach to turn 1 on GVS, too much front wing can make it extremely difficult to not spin off the course.

 

[sicbeing]

I agree with boundary. Downforce is mainly used to keep tires to the ground at high speeds, makes for easier high speed grip turns. I'd say if you having a problem with grip at high speeds, experiment with downforce. I believe more downforce hinders your max speed, but with drifting i wouldnt worry about that as much.

 

[jimj73]

so does anybody actively use downforce in their setups, for any cars, or specifically any courses? Nobody's even tried it? I realise that it is related to the speed that you're going - but surely for that reason it can be of use, no??? Do people not use downforce and wings in reality - in the D1GP for example?

thanks

 

[Boundary Layer]

Everyone has tried using wings at some point, I'm sure. It's a cheap and easy way to create oversteer.

Unfortunately, its use has as many, or more downsides as it does upsides. In my setups I strive for overall car balance and mechanical grip. Then I use technique to generate and maintain my slip. Using wings is too easy, too problematic, and in many cases too limiting for the reasons I mentioned in my prior post.

If you can tune suspension and lsd settings well, then in most cases wings are an unnecessary addition.


About D1GP - I wont say this as a rule, but I believe that the majority of the wings and body kits seen in that series are for looks only. In any case where downforce is used, I've read that it is normally to increase rear grip. Many of the best drivers prefer a car with a neutral or understeering feel because they are easier to control.

 

[sicbeing]

Yes, they are mainly used for rear grip, it's probably something that can either make or break your drifting. I wouldn't use it for drifting, I've never seen any reason to, would probably just hurt you more than anything.

For grip and apex racing I'd probably use it in some situations, but I've never really used it in GT4 as a "need", but more for looks.

I don't think anyone else would use wings just on certain tracks specifically, usually to help their car in general on all tracks during grip racing. I've never met anyone in reality (in person) that uses a wing for anything other than looks, but then again no one I know really races on the tracks or rally courses, so it's not needed. I dont understand the rest of your questions beyond that, jimj

 

[Niels]

About D1GP - I wont say this as a rule, but I believe that the majority of the wings and body kits seen in that series are for looks only. In any case where downforce is used, I've read that it is normally to increase rear grip. Many of the best drivers prefer a car with a neutral or understeering feel because they are easier to control.

I wouldn't know how to make it look like a spoiler then. The looks of a spoiler creates downforce. So how could you make a spoiler look like a normal one, but without the downforce? Make it flat?

For downforce in my settings, I never tried to get oversteer with downforce, it's a cheap trick maybe but it's very unpredictable if you do. Lets say you go into a long corner and use throttle control to enter, and then change your throttle to max. If you go faster, grip will increase on the front instead of staying balanced, so you would already have to decrease your countersteering just to make up for that increasing grip. But that would mess up the direction you wanted to go aka your line.

 

[jimj73]

I wouldn't know how to make it look like a spoiler then. The looks of a spoiler creates downforce. So how could you make a spoiler look like a normal one, but without the downforce? Make it flat?

Lets say you go into a long corner and use throttle control to enter, and then change your throttle to max. If you go faster, grip will increase on the front instead of staying balanced, so you would already have to decrease your countersteering just to make up for that increasing grip. But that would mess up the direction you wanted to go aka your line.

yeah - i wondered that too about a spoiler!

but more importantly - does the downforce work in the same way even when you're not travelling strictly speaking in a straight line - ie sideways in a drift? and generally speaking one tends to keep, or at least try to keep a fairly constant speed throughout the lenght of a drift, no? and surely, at then end of a drift, when you're speeding up to exit a drift, a little bit more grip thanks to downforce would be useful, no?

thanks

 

[Niels]

and surely, at then end of a drift, when you're speeding up to exit a drift, a little bit more grip thanks to downforce would be useful, no?

thanks

I would really apreciate some extra grip in the exit, so it might be possible with downforce. But the speed change between entrance and exit of a drift aint that big to make it grip effectively enough through the corners.

 

[jimj73]

I would really apreciate some extra grip in the exit, so it might be possible with downforce. But the speed change between entrance and exit of a drift aint that big to make it grip effectively enough through the corners.

I'm not so worried about the grip through the corners, if anything, it's mostly trying to get a good turn in with a car that is otherwise stable throughout the corner - and most people (for example the FR Drifting Guide) seem to be rather coy in helping improve that particular attribute.

so at present I'm only really happy with the turn in with my M3's and my RX7's - whilst desperately trying to sort out an otherwise lovelt TVR 350C, amongst many others - and I just thought that a little bit of front wing might well help with the turn in, when other things don't.

phew! thanks.
jim

 

[Playguy]

so does anybody actively use downforce in their setups, for any cars, or specifically any courses? Nobody's even tried it? I realise that it is related to the speed that you're going - but surely for that reason it can be of use, no??? Do people not use downforce and wings in reality - in the D1GP for example?

thanks

I use a wing for every FR car i buy. I don't like having to tune the suspension and lsd settings of my car(in fact, i never buy LSD, and with the suspension all i do is lowering the ride height), and a wing surely helps to get ride of the, let's say, exess (i don't remeber how it spells, sorry)over spin of the tyres.Yes, it may seem that that would take out the drifting capabitlity of the car, but it doesn't.And as i mainly use economic tyres on the back, you understand why i use it.

A wing works when the car is side wayz.If you have it 90º, then it wouldn't work, but with 45º, the air still flows through the wing. Now, if in D1 wings are used only for looks, i don't know, but i think that you can disable the wing, if you put it pararerelly to the ground.My idea of the wing working, is a bar that is disposed at a certain degree, in order to make the wind power add more weight on the back, making it have more grip.That's why it is useless on slowspeeds, am i right?

 

[Boundary Layer]

I wouldn't know how to make it look like a spoiler then. The looks of a spoiler creates downforce. So how could you make a spoiler look like a normal one, but without the downforce? Make it flat?

For downforce in my settings, I never tried to get oversteer with downforce, it's a cheap trick maybe but it's very unpredictable if you do. Lets say you go into a long corner and use throttle control to enter, and then change your throttle to max. If you go faster, grip will increase on the front instead of staying balanced, so you would already have to decrease your countersteering just to make up for that increasing grip. But that would mess up the direction you wanted to go aka your line.

Never did I say that putting a GT wing on a car does not create downforce... infact, this is my exact point GT4Fan.

I'm saying that all the body kits and whatnot are there first and foremost for aesthetic appeal and to fit some image as to what a top notch drift car should look like [and I'm sure sponsorship plays a big part as wel]. As a consequence they might experience increased grip from ground-effects and the posiblity that the modified front fascia increases front downforce.

At the same time I'm also saying that if D1GP cars used aero to intentionally create oversteer, then the rear wings would not be there at all - instead they'd be ripped off... its not like in GT4 where you can only adjust front downforce by putting the big ol GT wing on the rear of the car . This deduction, on top of some stuff I've read online [which I cannot find again... 👎] tells me that the rear wings are there to increase rear grip [thus decreasing oversteering tendencies]. When I read jimj73's question about D1GP in post 6 I thought that he thought rear wings were used in the series to increase oversteer, which is simply not true in the majority of cases. That's why I posted what I did earlier.

 

[sicbeing]

but more importantly - does the downforce work in the same way even when you're not travelling strictly speaking in a straight line - ie sideways in a drift? and generally speaking one tends to keep, or at least try to keep a fairly constant speed throughout the lenght of a drift, no? and surely, at then end of a drift, when you're speeding up to exit a drift, a little bit more grip thanks to downforce would be useful, no?

thanks

As far as I've known, you don't ever speed up during a drift, you only go slower throughout it. Oversteer makes you go slower than grip racing, because you can't accelerate through turns.

Drifting: Enter a corner at a high speed, slide through it, exit at a lower speed

Grip Racing: Enter at a slower speed, accelerate through the corner, exit at a faster speed (term "slow in, fast out")

 

[jimj73]

As far as I've known, you don't ever speed up during a drift, you only go slower throughout it. Oversteer makes you go slower than grip racing, because you can't accelerate through turns.

Drifting: Enter a corner at a high speed, slide through it, exit at a lower speed

Grip Racing: Enter at a slower speed, accelerate through the corner, exit at a faster speed (term "slow in, fast out")

yeah - OK!! I phrased that badly - but you have to admit that as you finish up the drift and you start gripping a bit more - it surely makes sense that you start speeding up as you gain more grip, no??? I'll have to check some of my replays when I get a chance. As I realise that one basically slows donw throughout a drift - although I did think that the point was to try your best to keep the speed constant throughout the drift as much as possible - isn;t it a powerslide if all you do is keep slowing down???

But I take your point, apologies for not being more precise in my language, I was mostly thinking aloud anyway - which I hope is cool in a forum like this - just trying stuff out?

cheers,
Jim

 

[Uncle Harry]

Depends at what speed downforce in GT4 starts to effect the car.
Is it proportional to speed or a fixed value when a certain speed is reached.
After driving a F1 with max downforce it appears to have no effect below 140 KMH and then increase in force at fixed speed intervals above that.
It apears you may have a lot more at 320 than you do at 240 KMH. Actual amount is hard to tell.
Taking a corner at 320 KMH I can easily make it, but at 270 the car goes of the track. To me the feel is not proportional, but is a preset value after you reach a certain speed. Very hard to measure.
So at the speeds you normally drift at I would say a wing would make little difference.

 

[l2ev]

About D1GP - I wont say this as a rule, but I believe that the majority of the wings and body kits seen in that series are for looks only. In any case where downforce is used, I've read that it is normally to increase rear grip. Many of the best drivers prefer a car with a neutral or understeering feel because they are easier to control.

I remember watching Formula D, and one of the drifters was talking about his new wing. He loved how it "caught" the car which allowed him to whip the car a little harder. I have used downforce plenty of times. I only ever use it to fix a problem such as oversteer at high speeds. A little downforce on the rear will fix that right up.

 

[jimj73]

I remember watching Formula D, and one of the drifters was talking about his new wing. He loved how it "caught" the car which allowed him to whip the car a little harder. I have used downforce plenty of times. I only ever use it to fix a problem such as oversteer at high speeds. A little downforce on the rear will fix that right up.

Nice post - what exactly did he mean by "caught" the car?? how would that help in GT? I'm assuming that means that because of the downforce he needs that much more energy to break grip and get the car moving, which means that when it moves, it moves pretty quick and nicely?? AM i On the right track there? and it may well be me but the last thing I generally get (sans wing) is oversteer at high speed. Example - that first right hand corner/kink after the long straight at the beginning of el capitan, it can be a real pain to get the car to turn in - and then not slide off the road into the bridge on the left hand side - that to me is a good example of the problems that I've found in trying to drift well (in this case at high speed)with numerous vehicles - and thus thought I would try to experiment with downforce, since I had little success with other tunings - and the videos that I've tried to download have not been that clear on my computer, and so not all that helpful in trying to improve my ability, and really only serve to make me fee incredibly insecure and inadequate at drifting.

there you go!

Anyway - to get back to the point - is there an issue with the tyre modelling or something - because other than at low gears, I have absolutely NO NEED for any rear wing downforce whatsoever! I guess maybe I'm just doing ot wrong! HA!

 

[Suzuki]

yeah - i wondered that too about a spoiler!

but more importantly - does the downforce work in the same way even when you're not travelling strictly speaking in a straight line - ie sideways in a drift? and generally speaking one tends to keep, or at least try to keep a fairly constant speed throughout the lenght of a drift, no? and surely, at then end of a drift, when you're speeding up to exit a drift, a little bit more grip thanks to downforce would be useful, no?

thanks

well, a wing should still provide downforce even if the wing is going sideways. alot of stunt planes can go sideways a little(using the rudder controls) and they still fly.
but i have never used wings for drifting other than for looks. but i dont use them much for looks period.
i DO use them for grip racing though. like on the elcaptn enduro, i use a near stock nsx, with exhaust upgrade and oil change to get power to 320ish. i also add a wing for high speed stability(for both high speed braking and turning) and it helps tons, and gives me a challange.

 

[Niels]

About D1GP - I wont say this as a rule, but I believe that the majority of the wings and body kits seen in that series are for looks only. In any case where downforce is used...etc etc

I wouldn't know how to make it look like a spoiler only then. The looks of a spoiler creates downforce. So how could you make a spoiler look like a normal one, but without the downforce? Make it flat?

This is what I replied at TankSpanker, not:

Never did I say that putting a GT wing on a car does not create downforce... infact, this is my exact point GT4Fan.

 

[T4 GTR]

I prefer having downforce on the front rather than the rear but on the front it makes the car easier to drive into a drift. It works on most cars under 1.4tons.

Cheers

T4 GTR