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KVL apology post.

I hope he's OK from the personal abuse. I agree with criticising his driving and wanting a better penalty and hoping DTM does a lot better at preventing these kind of actions going forward. But it's annoying when fans take it personally.
To paraphrase Oscar Wilde: 'To crash once, Mr Van Der Linde, may be regarded as a misfortune; to crash twice looks like carelessness.'

When you deliberately perform the same manoeuvre twice at the first corner one day after the other, it's disgraceful to call yourself a racing driver. While there is little need to take it personally as a fan, he's not exactly undeserving of the flack coming his way.
 
Having seen the Race 2 incident, that was what I could only describe as a stunt I would've pulled on Gran Turismo 4 way back when, going way too hot into a corner but knowing the AI would slow me down sufficiently.

Assuming the inner kerbing is in fact the designated boundary of the corner, KVL had no intent of making that turn whatsoever.

When you deliberately perform the same manoeuvre twice at the first corner one day after the other, it's disgraceful to call yourself a racing driver. While there is little need to take it personally as a fan, he's not exactly undeserving of the flack coming his way.
This. The abuse his family are getting should not be condoned whatsoever, and no doubt some of the criticism he will have received will be completely over the top (death threats e.t.c), but there's no way he should be getting out of that scot free. He could arguably be charged with bringing the series into disrepute if the masters-that-be at DTM weren't so indifferent to the whole affair.

Then again, maybe I'm just naïve in my ignorance and punting the championship leader in DTM is an enjoyable tradition...
 
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I think this whole debacle is about the only thing I've heard happening in DTM this year, the GT3 series hasn't really been anything I've bothered to pay attention to, so DTM are probably happy that this chaos has caused people to care about this series again.

It's like a few weeks ago when Formula E released their viewership numbers. Their most watched race of the year was Valencia 2 because everyone tuned in after the mess that was half the field running out of power the day before. Bad press might not be good, but it's a helluva lot better than no press sometimes.
 
The abuse his family are getting should not be condoned whatsoever, and no doubt some of the criticism he will have received will be completely over the top (death threats e.t.c), but there's no way he should be getting out of that scot free.
I totally agree with you on this - KVDL deserves to criticised for his driving, but that's it. His family should not be brought into it, no personal threats should be made, nothing else is acceptable. The problem is that the internet is too easy to be anonymous, and so it's too easy to be disproportionately venomous.

It's nothing new and has been going on for years - Mika Salo was one high-profile figure of attack.

Until platform providers record the MAC address of commentators alongside their comments (which shouldn't be too hard), this is going to carry on.
 
I think this whole debacle is about the only thing I've heard happening in DTM this year, the GT3 series hasn't really been anything I've bothered to pay attention to, so DTM are probably happy that this chaos has caused people to care about this series again.

It's like a few weeks ago when Formula E released their viewership numbers. Their most watched race of the year was Valencia 2 because everyone tuned in after the mess that was half the field running out of power the day before. Bad press might not be good, but it's a helluva lot better than no press sometimes.
Pretty much true. I completely lost interest in this series as I didn't see the reason why to watch when there's like 50 other GT3 series. GT3 DTM just gets lost in the massive pool. This did get me looking at a few things.

However I don't know how this will last, Liam Lawson has no interest returning to the series after the fiasco, fully committed to F2 next year. So DTM won't be able to continue this "saga" next year and will burn out again. I doubt I'll start watching it again last year

 
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DTM or ADAC Masters?

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And I'd say that ADAC is way more interesting as a whole. Even the VLN as a novelty is more interesting than the DTM.
 
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I remember I gave up on DTM the instant 2 different Audi drivers pulled over in the last moments of a Red Bull Ring race in 2018 to give Rast a win. How naive it was to think it wouldn't get worse from there.

Although the drama factor here seems exponentially greater as further research shows Kelvin wasn't even a teammate to Götz, just an idiot with a chip likely on his shoulder.
 
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Intra-team orders are fine(-ish) because it's keeping it changes within an organisation. Inter-team or manufacturers orders is abhorrent - imagine being told 'move over or you're not getting any cars next year', completely wrong. Hopefully Berger will do the decent thing and stop this from happening.
 
Intra-team orders are fine(-ish) because it's keeping it changes within an organisation. Inter-team or manufacturers orders is abhorrent - imagine being told 'move over or you're not getting any cars next year', completely wrong. Hopefully Berger will do the decent thing and stop this from happening.
I think in the past things have been somewhat more balanced by virtue of the direct involvement of the manufacturers, and the relatively balanced grid. Now there's a distinct imbalance in the number of entries, and there's little clarity on where the orders are coming from... I think that's why this particular instance feels so 'dirty'. 7 Mercs, 6 Audis, 3 BMWs, 2 Ferraris and 2 Lamborghinis... if Mercedes are going to operate as one team it's not hard to see why Red Bull / Lawson felt like they were getting picked on by Mercedes for most of the season.

For me it doesn't help that Mercedes cocking about over the 2.0T regs was what hobbled Class One in Europe... so messing up the series, then coming back and cheating their way to a drivers championship and somewhat brute-forcing the manufacturer standings is really sour.

I'm actually hoping that one of the two TBA races next year is back in the UK, DTM might not be what it once was, but it still appeals...
 
For me it doesn't help that Mercedes cocking about over the 2.0T regs was what hobbled Class One in Europe... so messing up the series, then coming back and cheating their way to a drivers championship and somewhat brute-forcing the manufacturer standings is really sour.
Class One was likely gonna mess up anyway. Remember Aston Martin gave it a go but dropped immediately and Audi was gonna drop a year later. Competitive was just too expensive and unlike Super GTs GT500 where the series has a firm grip on the Manufacturer involvement. DTM doesn't have much of a spine and has led all the Manufacturers putting the class to the ground by overspending, pushing the boundaries of competitive then leaving cause they can't pay anymore leaving no room for privateers to take over
 
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Class One was likely gonna mess up anyway. Remember Aston Martin gave it a go but dropped immediately and Audi was gonna drop a year later.
Aston Martin had no real business in DTM and likely wouldn't have been there at all if the Merc chassis of HWA weren't up for grabs. Audi's decision to leave was partially based on not wanting to be in a two manufacturer series, so if Mercedes hadn't left, Audi likely wouldn't have done either.

Competitive was just too expensive and unlike Super GTs GT500 where the series has a firm grip on the Manufacturer involvement. DTM doesn't have much of a spine and has led all the Manufacturers putting the class to the ground by overspending, pushing the boundaries of competitive then leaving cause they can't pay anymore
I would like to think at least one manufacturer would have a made a jump from one series to the other, but we'll never know now. Class One as a common ruleset doesn't really allow for massive development so I'm not sure spending would have been that big of a problem (aside from the cost of developing the 2.0T engine, which was the major thing Mercedes were resisting, but a cost that Audi and BMW had already spent). The only data point I have for actual costs is BMW's return in 2012, which apparently cost something like €65 million and was several times what the other manufacturers were spending - so generally speaking I don't think it was that expensive, and probably on a par with what they've been spending on Formula E.
 
Audi's decision to leave was partially based on not wanting to be in a two manufacturer series, so if Mercedes hadn'
Partially implies other reasons and I'm definitely in the camp that it's money as that's the usual culprit.
I would like to think at least one manufacturer would have a made a jump from one series to the other, but we'll never know now. Class One as a common ruleset doesn't really allow for massive development so I'm not sure spending would have been that big of a problem (aside from the cost of developing the 2.0T engine, which was the major thing Mercedes were resisting, but a cost that Audi and BMW had already spent). The only data point I have for actual costs is BMW's return in 2012, which apparently cost something like €65 million and was several times what the other manufacturers were spending - so generally speaking I don't think it was that expensive, and probably on a par with what they've been spending on Formula E.
When Audi decided dropped, BMW was asked if they'd drop a car or 2 in Super GT to keep going with their Class One car but BMW said no citing costs to convert as the main reason


Have to remember that cost was for 2012 and that was before their FE campaign, costs definitely creeped up by 2020 and even though Audi is leaving FE anyway, their efforts are now on LMDh
 
Partially implies other reasons and I'm definitely in the camp that it's money as that's the usual culprit.
It's always going to be a balance, how much you spend versus what the return is. I don't know what the viewing figures for the coverage has been like this year versus 2020, 2019 or 2018, but I'd imagine it's harder to justify a set level of expenditure for a series that might be about lose a third of its viewers (for example).

When Audi decided dropped, BMW was asked if they'd drop a car or 2 in Super GT to keep going with their Class One car but BMW said no citing costs to convert as the main reason
To be fair Marquardt also cites return on investment and indicates that if it had been more than just BMW evaluating it, it would have made more sense. He clearly feels that brand representation by your competitor(s) is a key factor.

Having said that, my personal hope was always for the M4 in GT500 with Team Studie, but I'd thought that realistically it would be more likely to see one of the Japanese teams enter DTM. Japan isn't as large a market for the German brands as Europe is for the Japanese brands, even just Toyota (with their Cologne base) could have made sense, to me at least (but then I suppose I'm not the one writing the cheques!)
 
Having said that, my personal hope was always for the M4 in GT500 with Team Studie, but I'd thought that realistically it would be more likely to see one of the Japanese teams enter DTM. Japan isn't as large a market for the German brands as Europe is for the Japanese brands, even just Toyota (with their Cologne base) could have made sense, to me at least (but then I suppose I'm not the one writing the cheques!)
Thing is, you didn't want to enter just 1 or 2 cars in DTM as a manufacturer. You needed a full squad almost the same amount Toyota is putting into Super GT, so costs would be doubled. Since manufacturer involvement was both key and choking around DTM, any half attempt would likely get chewed out with Team Orders a many. I can see Toyota not wanting to do a DTM attempt.

Even now in the GT3 era showed how 2 Ferraris is a disadvantage to 8 Mercedes
 
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The few times I've tried to watch DTM over the past several years it's been pretty dreadful. Another GT3 series isn't exactly blowing my skirt up, but I can say this is at least the first time I've been amused by DTM in...a long time.

With yet another all-pro GT3 series I'm still hoping we see a GT3+ or GT3 Evo option for series to set them aside from some of the pro-am efforts. Would be nice to see just slightly more tire, more silly big aero, a pinch more power...make them look a tad more aggressive. BoP'ed separately.

I'd have rather seen DTM go to a saloon style class instead...but alas. The struggles continue.
 
The few times I've tried to watch DTM over the past several years it's been pretty dreadful. Another GT3 series isn't exactly blowing my skirt up, but I can say this is at least the first time I've been amused by DTM in...a long time.

With yet another all-pro GT3 series I'm still hoping we see a GT3+ or GT3 Evo option for series to set them aside from some of the pro-am efforts. Would be nice to see just slightly more tire, more silly big aero, a pinch more power...make them look a tad more aggressive. BoP'ed separately.

I'd have rather seen DTM go to a saloon style class instead...but alas. The struggles continue.
It would be great if they went back to big 4 door cars. Instead of essential super cars with aero.
 
The same problem V8 Supercars faced, could have been resolved with the Marc Cars Global Touring Cars chassis. Any engine and any body shell can fit the chassis.


Marc Cars also have two GT bodies. One in the shape of a Mustang and a brand new car, similar to a GT3. Inexpensive initial cost, easy to maintain and can accommodate many manufacturers in brand relevance.

Easy choice if the DTM only wanted to feature German cars. Could make an Alfa body as well. ;)
 
I don't think it completely fixes the issue. Relying on a Vehicle class cheat sheet makes you lose identity to easy eyes and puts you in easy comparisons to everyone else.

My big problem with GT3 DTM isn't GT3 itself, it's the fact there's already so many GT3 in existence. DTM doesn't grasp much compared already established (and better run) GT3 series. Doing the same with MARC is only slightly better.

I don't think DTM care if the Manufacturer are German or not. They let Aston Martin compete in Class One and have let Ferrari and Lamborghini enter
 
I guess it just brings up the age old question...is it worth keeping something around if it's just a fake shell of its previous self? Is there anything DTM left...in DTM? As you say - there is plenty of GT3 (arguably GT3 overload nowdays). It's business smart, but is that enough to warrant having DTM? Why not revert and drop the class/prestige to a crazy front-engine saloon class, closer to road cars? Just a complete reinvention, and sure keep all the cars German if you want. I think it's time for drastic measures if you want something identifiable as a separate and unique product.
 
I don't think it completely fixes the issue. Relying on a Vehicle class cheat sheet makes you lose identity to easy eyes and puts you in easy comparisons to everyone else.

My big problem with GT3 DTM isn't GT3 itself, it's the fact there's already so many GT3 in existence. DTM doesn't grasp much compared already established (and better run) GT3 series. Doing the same with MARC is only slightly better.

I don't think DTM care if the Manufacturer are German or not. They let Aston Martin compete in Class One and have let Ferrari and Lamborghini enter
Going the GT3 route, already sees fans comparing it to other series as well as losing its “DTM” identity. Audi, BMW and Mercedes are in.

As you know, V8s DNA was ATCC. Then, the name change to Australian V8s. The name changed again and Accommodated multiple brands. Changed again to what it’s known as now. Silhouette racing isn’t new, but could be an option for costs and participation consistency. As that’s what GT3 afford, a purpose built parity series, GTC is another option.

I‘d rather DTM go back to saloon racing three box production sedans. The Trophy series already have the GT4 cars. As I’m a fan of the past, make an RS5 and C-class GT4 car and keep going with the series. That’s just me.

edit: just came back after the gtp maintenance and that’s exactly how I feel about it. SlowGrayAudi
edit2: and what TheElbows posted.
 
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