Dynamic weather and track conditions?

V

Vincent Viceroy

533
cooldawn | GTP_Vincent_Vice
cooldawn
...are possible, apparently.

http://www.gamersyde.com/news_superstars_v8_next_challenge_trailer-8905_en.html

Watch the trailer and it shows two new and interesting aspects of the game. You can see that after it's rained a dry line gradually appears and that as laps go by rubber gets left on the racing line. That's pretty cool.

Now I don't imagine that the team developing this game have the huge R&D of PD but if this system successfully works on a small budget...being fiscal and on system resources...then I would expect PD to be able to implement it in to GT5.

Essentially this game shows it is possible...but will PD thinks it's important enough? Standard GT wet races don't count...they are not dynamic.
 
It was possible on PS2 in GTA games and it looked good and the fact is those games are a big load on the system. I think PD did not implement weather yet because they didn't intend to in the first place, now for GT5 they will fortunately do it. Remember if there is rain there cannot be light reflections on cars from the sun and HDR, so there they have empty resources to use.
 
Whoa. That looks pretty sweet! Love the effect of the drying line showing up.

Oh, and that clip shows that 16 cars & dynamic weather can coexist. :)
 
It's quite interesting. I remain skeptical about how dynamic are these "evolving track conditions" however. I think the track will always get rubber and dry on the same spots which happen to be the driving line of course. Still, since that is what would normally happen it is quite interesting either way.

I can only hope it will be in GT5.
 
arvin charles
Whoa. That looks pretty sweet! Love the effect of the drying line showing up.

Oh, and that clip shows that 16 cars & dynamic weather can coexist. :)
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No, it doesn't. Those cars are possibly 1/4th of the polygons that GT5 will have. Even heavy engine optimization can't cope with that. There are a lot of things the PS3 can't do just yet.
 
Perkel
@ above

lol, yes and ps3 can't do shadows at all ...

it's XXI century.. com on....
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Uh, what?

There's a little bit of a difference between a game that's using lower quality resources with one added feature and one that's using possibly the highest quality resources available without the feature.

If you're gonna try and insult, at least do it right.
 
Watevaman
Uh, what?

There's a little bit of a difference between a game that's using lower quality resources with one added feature and one that's using possibly the highest quality resources available without the feature.

If you're gonna try and insult, at least do it right.
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I think you are being slightly unfair. First of all Black Bean Games are developing this as a multi-format title and, as I did say in the OP, won't have the clout of Sony.

Also consider that GT5 is a PlayStation3 exclusive meaning that all R&D evolves around one game on one platform. If Black Bean Games can do it I'm sure PD should be able to do it.
 
This could be done on the PS2 allready.. it's scary how many big racing game developers avoid dynamic weather effects in their games.

I hope PD does have the balls to take the step and implement it the right way.
 
Watevaman
No, it doesn't. Those cars are possibly 1/4th of the polygons that GT5 will have. Even heavy engine optimization can't cope with that. There are a lot of things the PS3 can't do just yet.
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I agree that these cars will probably have lower polygons, but that doesn't make my statement untrue.

"This shows that 16 cars & dynamic weather can coexist."

It means just means that 16 cars & dynamic weather can coexist in the same game.

Also, I do believe that there have been reports that there is weather in GT5, no? Those also have 16 cars, right?

Again, show me how my statement is wrong.
 
Viktor Navorsky
Dynamic Weather is present in GTAIV ... and cycle days as well... i think thats should not be a huge problem for PD...
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How do the cars look in GTAIV?

I think what most people fail to realize, is that prologue is already pushing the PS3's graphics card to the limit. Add raindrops, extra reflections for the wet surfaces, fog and lights to the existing graphics and you have a frame rate so low it's impossible to play. Hell, if you smoke your tires the guy behind you has a frame rate drop.

Games with such things are designed from the ground up to be able to accommodate such features. GT5P is designed to squeeze all the power of the PS3 without those. On top of that, GT5P had 200k polygon cars while GT5 cars will have 500k.

Anyway, PD claims they will do it (actually it was OPM who claimed that. I'm hoping they are reliable). I still have to see what they will come up with, but if it's 16 cars with GT5P graphics + weather I'll be mind-blown beyond imagination. If they somehow pull this epic feat, it should be dynamic. Being dynamic or not depends mostly on the processor and PD appears to have a lot of power left on it. For the graphics card it should make little to no difference although it depends on how they did a few things.

Bottom line I'm skeptical. We will see if and how it will happen. Just don't think it's easy.
 
One thing to consider is that the PS3's processor is actually able to generate graphics also, not just process them. That's one thing that the game developers arent exactly taking advantage of ATM. I have a feeling that the PS3 can do A LOT more than we can think... Sony made an incredible product that trumps the Xbox by far, but people do not know how to handle it, so they produce for the 360, and convert it to the ps3
 
Leadfoot53
One thing to consider is that the PS3's processor is actually able to generate graphics also, not just process them. That's one thing that the game developers arent exactly taking advantage of ATM. I have a feeling that the PS3 can do A LOT more than we can think... Sony made an incredible product that trumps the Xbox by far, but people do not know how to handle it, so they produce for the 360, and convert it to the ps3
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Any processor can generate graphics, the GPU is dedicated to it though so is better at the job and afaik the 360 has a better GPU than the PS3 but the connection between the CPU and the GPU is better in the PS3 and some of the work usually done by the GPU can be offloaded to the CPU and it's SPEs although to what extent and how difficult to do I have no idea.
 
Leadfoot53
One thing to consider is that the PS3's processor is actually able to generate graphics also, not just process them. That's one thing that the game developers arent exactly taking advantage of ATM. I have a feeling that the PS3 can do A LOT more than we can think... Sony made an incredible product that trumps the Xbox by far, but people do not know how to handle it, so they produce for the 360, and convert it to the ps3
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If you ask me, I think Ken Kutaragi should make a PS3 game and show us what it's really capable of. After all, he invented it.
 
I know what the GPU is... What I am saying is that the PS3's CPU is powerful enough to generate graphics from the codes.
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Sorry, was kind of thinking out loud as I have an interest in optimising 3D rendering on general purpose CPU and am always looking for ways to improve.
 
Give us 80k polygon per car, full weather effects, time of the day changes, decent graphics of surroundings instead of cardboards, helicopter cameras over autumn Eiffel mountains where Nordschleife lies, skidmarks, reverse lights, volumetric smoke behaving like in real life, 32 cars on the screen at the same time, wonderful engine sounds, great competitive AI instead of that puppets, fun even with very weak cars and I could then say those six years of waiting are worth the wait.
 
Someone needs to tell PD the first rule of game design - Gameplay > eye candy. Get the gameplay in there first, all the features you can squeeze in, then work out how many polys are possible based on leftover clock cycles.

Seems to me KY likes to do it arse backwards - Set a half million tris per car - target then see if there's enough room for anything else. If there were actual gameplay changing features like dynamic weather and day/night cycles I'd be happy enough with 10,000 polys if that's what it took. I have a collection of top gear dvds if I want to watch realistic cars on teevee. GT should be gameplay first and foremost.
 
P3nT4gR4m
Someone needs to tell PD the first rule of game design - Gameplay > eye candy. Get the gameplay in there first, all the features you can squeeze in, then work out how many polys are possible based on leftover clock cycles.

Seems to me KY likes to do it arse backwards - Set a half million tris per car - target then see if there's enough room for anything else. If there were actual gameplay changing features like dynamic weather and day/night cycles I'd be happy enough with 10,000 polys if that's what it took. I have a collection of top gear dvds if I want to watch realistic cars on teevee. GT should be gameplay first and foremost.
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You would, Kazunori wouldn't. GT has always been about eye candy. You may not agree with it, but that's what it is. It's a characteristic that sets it apart from other sims.

Anyway, weather and night will make it into the game and there are 3 possibilities:

1-)PD somehow pull of a miracle and we get awesome looking weather with 16 cars on the track.
2-)Kazunori follows his trend and we get awesome looking weather with 4-6 cars on the track.
3-)Kazunori makes a rare gameplay over eye candy choice and we get crappy looking weather with 16 cars in the track.

I have hope for number 1 but realistically I'll go with number 3 (lowering the number of cars would be a bad move and I don't think it's gonna happen). What will happen then? This forum will be flooded by people crying because the weather looks like s***. I just want to see if those are the same that are saying right now that they would rather have gameplay before eye candy so I can laugh my ass off.
 
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RedBaron
Give us 80k polygon per car, full weather effects, time of the day changes, decent graphics of surroundings instead of cardboards, helicopter cameras over autumn Eiffel mountains where Nordschleife lies, skidmarks, reverse lights, volumetric smoke behaving like in real life, 32 cars on the screen at the same time, wonderful engine sounds, great competitive AI instead of that puppets, fun even with very weak cars and I could then say those six years of waiting are worth the wait.
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Exactly 👍
 
I love how some people seem to know more about GT5 than PD. They talk about polygons, processors, effects, HDRI and the PS3 not having any more power. Here's something to think about: Gt5p clearly has framerate issues at some points. How come then PD managed to up the polycunt while still using 80% of the Ps3 power?
You gotta understand that skidmarks, reverse lights, timecycle and damage are not things demanding a lot of power. It's a matter of their will to work on it, instead of eating cookies.
Explaining the lack of skidmarks with the already taken processing power by 16 highpoly cars is as embarassing as peeing in your pants on the first day of school.
 
snoopybg
I love how some people seem to know more about GT5 than PD. They talk about polygons, processors, effects, HDRI and the PS3 not having any more power. Here's something to think about: Gt5p clearly has framerate issues at some points. How come then PD managed to up the polycunt while still using 80% of the Ps3 power?
You gotta understand that skidmarks, reverse lights, timecycle and damage are not things demanding a lot of power. It's a matter of their will to work on it, instead of eating cookies.
Explaining the lack of skidmarks with the already taken processing power by 16 highpoly cars is as embarassing as peeing in your pants on the first day of school.
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Simples! GT5 has framerate issues at more points
 
snoopybg
I love how some people seem to know more about GT5 than PD. They talk about polygons, processors, effects, HDRI and the PS3 not having any more power. Here's something to think about: Gt5p clearly has framerate issues at some points. How come then PD managed to up the polycunt while still using 80% of the Ps3 power?
You gotta understand that skidmarks, reverse lights, timecycle and damage are not things demanding a lot of power. It's a matter of their will to work on it, instead of eating cookies.
Explaining the lack of skidmarks with the already taken processing power by 16 highpoly cars is as embarassing as peeing in your pants on the first day of school.
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Nobody is talking about skidmarks or reverse lights. As you said, these are not missing in the game because of processing issues.

We are talking about night and weather. These are demanding for the GPU and the processor. As you said yourself, GT5P clearly has framerate issues. That indicates it's using the GPU to it's limit. If you ask me, it's mind-blowing already how they more than doubled the poly count of the cars. I can't understand how they achieved it, just make some general guesses: they must do it through engine optimizations to free some processing power and cleaver level of detail manipulation to use the processing power where it's needed. How exactly they do it is beyond my knowledge.

Since GT5P already pushed it to the limit (as you can see from the frame drops), engine optimizations can only free some processing power (not enough for big graphic improvements) and they more than doubled the poly count of the cars, you would expect they squeezed all the power they could already. But no. There's also night and weather, two features that, unlike skidmarks, are very demanding on the GPU. Even though I believe them and expect epic looking weather, it sounds impossible. I mean, come on. They still can add those on top of all they had? It's so mind-blowing that all I can do is: :bowdown:
 
The frame rate drops in GT5p, were due to not having v-sync Dravonic.Wipeout Fury had that & never had a problem with fps.Also the screen is never tearing.None of the PS3 games, are using all the juice in the PS3 at the mo'.Developers are finding that bit difficult.
 

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