Dynamic Weather & FIA Races

[LeGeNd-1]

Just a thought that popped to my head after yesterday's FIA race (Spa Gr.3 rain) and after watching the last 2 F1 races with mixed weather (Styrian quali & Hungarian GP) which always makes things interesting due to the mixed up grid. How will dynamic weather affect the FIA races in GT7? Will each race have a scripted change (e.g. dry for x laps, then rain for y laps), or will it be truly random for every slot? IMO there are advantages and disadvantages for either case.

1) Scripted weather
Good - each slot has a constant race condition.
Bad - people racing in 2nd slot onwards have an advantage over the 1st slot players because they already know what's going to happen and can plan their tyre change in advance. Conversely, if you managed to time your tyre change perfectly in 1st slot and get better points over another driver, that driver can just do the next slot and get better points (essentially making your race and masterstroke decision making useless).

2) Truly dynamic weather
Good - maintains fresh challenge for each slot because everyone has no idea what's gonna happen each time, just like real life.
Bad - it's luck of the draw how the race will pan out depending on the slot you do. For example it might not rain at all in some races and everyone will have a much easier time racing in that slot. Potentially you could adjust the points system to give less points if the weather is dry/constant but they couldn't get the points system right as it is in GTS, and this will just add another layer of complication.

3) Fixed dry/wet weather
Third case, they could just make the weather fixed for FIA races like in GT Sport. Dry all the time or wet all the time. Probably the safest option, but also most boring. On the upside, they could bring dynamic weather into play in the actual live events. Would be an epic challenge for the elite drivers to contend with!

Would be interesting to hear everyone's thoughts, especially frequent FIA players

Edit: some more food for thought on whether dynamic weather is really needed in the sprint race format we have in GTS FIA races.

 

[Lord Protector]

I would hope for the fixed conditions just to keep things fair.

 

[Veinz]

I’ll be surprised if GT7 even has dynamic weather. But if we had that then I wouldn’t want to see anything scripted or fixed.

 

[ScottPye20]

Dynamic weather would be ideal for endurance events, but not for sprint races. It would take the fun out of it in my opinion. It should be fixed weather only for those races.

 

[05XR8]

Dynamic weather could be cloudy to sunny. Definitely effecting a sprint and endurance race.

Starting on a hard tyre when it's cloudy and then pitting for softs when it's sunny. Or thinking it may become cloudy to cool the track down and being stuck on the softs. Those type of variables.

 

[FPV MIC]

Dynamic weather would be ideal for endurance events, but not for sprint races. It would take the fun out of it in my opinion. It should be fixed weather only for those races.

I must admit to being more than a little curious as to why you would want to take the randomness out of sprint races in a game, something that does naturally occur, just because to you it isn't fun, and yet you're more than happy to have drivers deal with gimmicky randomness included in real life motorsport (as per our discussion in the Supercars thread).

 

[ScottPye20]

I must admit to being more than a little curious as to why you would want to take the randomness out of sprint races in a game, something that does naturally occur, just because to you it isn't fun, and yet you're more than happy to have drivers deal with gimmicky randomness included in real life motorsport (as per our discussion in the Supercars thread).

Changeable weather conditions are harder to deal with compared to tyre allocation. Sprint races in this context are the FIA races that typically last between 20 and 40 minutes. Anything longer is considered to be an endurance. A sprint race in Supercars is anything between 45 minutes and 2 hours, which would pretty much be an endurance for someone like me. Changeable weather in a 20 minute race would stifle the racing because of the pitstops that would occur. For example: The race starts off dry and everyone is on slicks. It then starts to rain and after about 5 minutes, the track is completely wet. Everyone comes into the pits for wets. The track then starts to dry out and after about 10 minutes, it's dry again. Everyone comes into the pits again to change back to slicks. It's a lot to think about in a 20 minute period, and the gaps in talent would be more obvious to see. That's not good for the viewers. There won't be this flurry of cars all fighting it out on the last lap. Have you not watched any of the World Tour races? There's plenty of strategy in them with the tyres alone - some start on the hard and others on the soft. So if the fast guys want to get away and get a gap so that they won't be overtaken on the hard tyre, that's what they're going to do. Those who start on the hard will have an advantage later on when they switch to the softs. It all evens itself out, whereas a race with changeable conditions will not. The guys who are good in both conditions will streak away, making the racing less competitive and taking more drivers out of the running for a win.

Does that help explain what I'm on about?

 

[FPV MIC]

Changeable weather conditions are harder to deal with compared to tyre allocation. Sprint races in this context are the FIA races that typically last between 20 and 40 minutes. Anything longer is considered to be an endurance. A sprint race in Supercars is anything between 45 minutes and 2 hours, which would pretty much be an endurance for someone like me. Changeable weather in a 20 minute race would stifle the racing because of the pitstops that would occur. For example: The race starts off dry and everyone is on slicks. It then starts to rain and after about 5 minutes, the track is completely wet. Everyone comes into the pits for wets. The track then starts to dry out and after about 10 minutes, it's dry again. Everyone comes into the pits again to change back to slicks. It's a lot to think about in a 20 minute period, and the gaps in talent would be more obvious to see. That's not good for the viewers. There won't be this flurry of cars all fighting it out on the last lap. Have you not watched any of the World Tour races? There's plenty of strategy in them with the tyres alone - some start on the hard and others on the soft. So if the fast guys want to get away and get a gap so that they won't be overtaken on the hard tyre, that's what they're going to do. Those who start on the hard will have an advantage later on when they switch to the softs. It all evens itself out, whereas a race with changeable conditions will not. The guys who are good in both conditions will streak away, making the racing less competitive and taking more drivers out of the running for a win.

Does that help explain what I'm on about?

No not really. I don't see how changeable weather conditions over one race would be harder to deal with than managing a tyre bank over three races which also have the possibility of changeable weather conditions, as is Supercars case. Sprint races have also been changed to be nowhere near as long as they have been previously with all of them so far being about 50 minutes (the old 200km races have been renamed) so they're not a great deal off in length.

If it was only a 20 minute race it could probably almost be done on dry tyres or with only one stop to change to wets. There's nothing to say they'd have to use the tyre or weather multipliers we've seen in previous games.

And yes I have seen the FIA race telecasts, but not all of the FIA races are telecast. The World Tour races would probably be better all dry as you mentioned but I think @LeGeNd-1's idea of truly dynamic weather over the normal Nations/Manufacturers three time slots would be great because, as he mentioned, ''everyone has no idea what's gonna happen each time, just like real life.'' The people who can only make the last time slot aren't going to be as disadvantaged by racing people who already know how the race will pan out that way.

There's also the point @05XR8 brought up, dynamic weather doesn't have to necessarily mean rain, it could also be cloudy or sunny.

 

[Lord Protector]

I must admit to being more than a little curious as to why you would want to take the randomness out of sprint races in a game, something that does naturally occur, just because to you it isn't fun, and yet you're more than happy to have drivers deal with gimmicky randomness included in real life motorsport (as per our discussion in the Supercars thread).

Easy explanation. It could lead terrible results even if you’re fully prepared for the race and all. Imagine you only have time for one race and you get wasted by a random thunderstorm, while you have slick tyres equiped.

 

[05XR8]

See? This goes back to a suggestion I had of track surfaces. As a point in (V8)Supercars, Barbagallo Raceway in Perth, was notorious for tyre degredation. The surface was rough and wore tyres at an alarming rate. Probably the most marble build up of any track on the calendar.

It's recently been resurfaced, but high degredation and warm weather are brutal. It's rained there as well and threw a spanner in strategy.

We can have Dynamic Weather, but if tyre surface came into play as well, players would at least know one of the variables. It would dismiss the tyre multiplier.

We know PD have track surface information. Add the Dynamic Weather and all we'd need is time of year.

 

[Samus]

It then starts to rain and after about 5 minutes, the track is completely wet. Everyone comes into the pits for wets. The track then starts to dry out and after about 10 minutes, it's dry again.

Tracks don't dry that quickly. Unless you're suggesting PD use accelerated weather. Which definitely is a bad idea.

 

[ScottPye20]

No not really. I don't see how changeable weather conditions over one race would be harder to deal with than managing a tyre bank over three races which also have the possibility of changeable weather conditions, as is Supercars case. Sprint races have also been changed to be nowhere near as long as they have been previously with all of them so far being about 50 minutes (the old 200km races have been renamed) so they're not a great deal off in length.

If it was only a 20 minute race it could probably almost be done on dry tyres or with only one stop to change to wets. There's nothing to say they'd have to use the tyre or weather multipliers we've seen in previous games.

And yes I have seen the FIA race telecasts, but not all of the FIA races are telecast. The World Tour races would probably be better all dry as you mentioned but I think @LeGeNd-1's idea of truly dynamic weather over the normal Nations/Manufacturers three time slots would be great because, as he mentioned, ''everyone has no idea what's gonna happen each time, just like real life.'' The people who can only make the last time slot aren't going to be as disadvantaged by racing people who already know how the race will pan out that way.

There's also the point @05XR8 brought up, dynamic weather doesn't have to necessarily mean rain, it could also be cloudy or sunny.

I think fixed weather instead of random weather is the way to go. Everyone has to adjust to the same conditions, ensuring that no-one has an advantage. However scripted weather would also be a good option to get changeable conditions into each race. Having truly random weather for each and every race is a bad idea, especially if it can be controlled.

 

[05XR8]

I think fixed weather instead of random weather is the way to go. Everyone has to adjust to the same conditions, ensuring that no-one has an advantage. However scripted weather would also be a good option to get changeable conditions into each race. Having truly random weather for each and every race is a bad idea, especially if it can be controlled.

Unpredictable weather is good. If First slot is rain, 2nd slot winds up sunny W/wet track, 3rd slot cloudy W/dry track, 4th slot night time w/wet. Who gets the advantage?

 

[FPV MIC]

Easy explanation. It could lead terrible results even if you’re fully prepared for the race and all. Imagine you only have time for one race and you get wasted by a random thunderstorm, while you have slick tyres equiped.

It would be the same for everyone in that race.

I think fixed weather instead of random weather is the way to go. Everyone has to adjust to the same conditions, ensuring that no-one has an advantage. However scripted weather would also be a good option to get changeable conditions into each race. Having truly random weather for each and every race is a bad idea, especially if it can be controlled.

The only ones capable of controlling the dynamic weather would be PD, and having all times slots the same would absolutely give those with the most time an advantage. They can simply test different strategies to see which one is the quickest for the overall race distance.

Do you see what I'm getting at though @CLowndes888 ? You want the most predictable conditions for yourself but far less predictable conditions for the real life Supercars drivers.

________________
Another idea would be ''live weather'' like used to be in Tiger Woods golf, although I have to admit while I played the game many times I never tried the ''Live'' option because of the lack of an internet connection so I don't know how well it functioned.

 

[ScottPye20]

The only ones capable of controlling the dynamic weather would be PD, and having all times slots the same would absolutely give those with the most time an advantage. They can simply test different strategies to see which one is the quickest for the overall race distance.

Do you see what I'm getting at though @CLowndes888 ? You want the most predictable conditions for yourself but far less predictable conditions for the real life Supercars drivers.

________________
Another idea would be ''live weather'' like used to be in Tiger Woods golf, although I have to admit while I played the game many times I never tried the ''Live'' option because of the lack of an internet connection so I don't know how well it functioned.

But all the teams and all the drivers knew what tyres were available. The way in which people played the strategy is what conjured up a different result, not random weather. When you get an understanding of who's on what strategy, the results don't seem so random. How does that make things less predictable than in Gran Turismo?

 

[05XR8]

Well, how about yesterday's FIA Red Bull race? All of Oceania have given results for regions after, on how to run their tyre strategy. If dynamic weather comes into play(again, I'm more for track surface changes), regions after Oceania, won't have a clue for any other condition than dry conditions.

It could change slot by slot as I mentioned before.

Possible way for anyone in other regions to have an advantage, would be if the same scenarios run for those regions. No matter if PD randomise what happens in whatever slot. A player can look up tyre strategies from that dynamic weather scenario.

Only way to afford random outcomes, is to randomise all slots and vary them for each region.

 

[FPV MIC]

But all the teams and all the drivers knew what tyres were available.

In GTS FIA races you have to run specified compounds over one race whereas in the most recent Supercars races they didn't, making for far more random choices across the field. And when do you ever have glory hunting drivers saving their soft tyres from an earlier race to double stint them in one race against you being stuck on a set of softs and a set of hards?

The way in which people played the strategy is what conjured up a different result, not random weather.

Just because the weather didn't play a part doesn't mean they didn't have dynamic weather conditions, as has been said a couple of times in this thread, dynamic weather doesn't necessarily mean rain.

When you get an understanding of who's on what strategy, the results don't seem so random. How does that make things less predictable than in Gran Turismo?

Hindsight is a wonderful thing when it comes to understanding what people are going to do in the past. The only thing that can possibly make GT any less predictable than being able to practice the race over and over in advance, and even run the exact same race several times in one night is truly random dynamic weather for each and every race (like real life).

Well, how about yesterday's FIA Red Bull race? All of Oceania have given results for regions after, on how to run their tyre strategy. If dynamic weather comes into play(again, I'm more for track surface changes), regions after Oceania, won't have a clue for any other condition than dry conditions.

It could change slot by slot as I mentioned before.

Possible way for anyone in other regions to have an advantage, would be if the same scenarios run for those regions. No matter if PD randomise what happens in whatever slot. A player can look up tyre strategies from that dynamic weather scenario.

Only way to afford random outcomes, is to randomise all slots and vary them for each region.

The highlighted part is exactly what I had in mind too.
___________________________
I'd also be all for pre-race weather forecasts showing percentages of chances of rain, sunny conditions etc. as would be available to a race team in real life.

 

[05XR8]

In GTS FIA races you have to run specified compounds over one race whereas in the most recent Supercars races they didn't, making for far more random choices across the field. And when do you ever have glory hunting drivers saving their soft tyres from an earlier race to double stint them in one race against you being stuck on a set of softs and a set of hards? Just because the weather didn't play a part doesn't mean they didn't have dynamic weather conditions, as has been said a couple of times in this thread, dynamic weather doesn't necessarily mean rain.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing when it comes to understanding what people are going to do in the past. The only thing that can possibly make GT any less predictable than being able to practice the race over and over in advance, and even run the exact same race several times in one night is truly random dynamic weather for each and every race (like real life).
The highlighted part is exactly what I had in mind too.
___________________________
I'd also be all for pre-race weather forecasts showing percentages of chances of rain, sunny conditions etc. as would be available to a race team in real life.

For sure. Depending on the length of a circuit, will everyone leave the pits early while it's cloudy? Will some wait a bit longer until a semi-dry line appears(in 10 minutes)? Will players gamble qualifying on IW or RH?

I'd say a very smal percentage of players, would practice varying track conditions on a multitude of compounds. Similar to how players do now.

 

[ScottPye20]

In GTS FIA races you have to run specified compounds over one race whereas in the most recent Supercars races they didn't, making for far more random choices across the field. And when do you ever have glory hunting drivers saving their soft tyres from an earlier race to double stint them in one race against you being stuck on a set of softs and a set of hards? Just because the weather didn't play a part doesn't mean they didn't have dynamic weather conditions, as has been said a couple of times in this thread, dynamic weather doesn't necessarily mean rain.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing when it comes to understanding what people are going to do in the past. The only thing that can possibly make GT any less predictable than being able to practice the race over and over in advance, and even run the exact same race several times in one night is truly random dynamic weather for each and every race (like real life).
The highlighted part is exactly what I had in mind too.
___________________________
I'd also be all for pre-race weather forecasts showing percentages of chances of rain, sunny conditions etc. as would be available to a race team in real life.

Well you're obviously unmoved by my claims so I'll call it even. You think the races should have true dynamic weather, whereas I do not. I don't know why you even brought in a comment that I made in another thread about a different topic. It seems like you're really trying hard to prove me wrong, despite the fact both issues at hand are a matter of personal opinion. Don't start implying that I'm a hypocrite when the topics are different.

 

[MIE1992]

I think truly dynamic weather could be a blast, but as another user mentioned, I think that would be ideal for longer races. Better yet, I'd love to see the time of day not only be in real-time progression, but also potentially correspond to the time at that actual circuit's time zone in the real world, especially since in GTS and GT7, even original circuits are located in a real location. For example, in GTS, I think it says SSRX is somewhere near the west coast of the USA, and Blue Moon Bay can be seen as being somewhere in California.

I think there was this iOS karting game that featured Nico Rosberg that did something similar, where the dynamic time of day in-game was representative of each circuit's real-world time.

 

[FPV MIC]

Well you're obviously unmoved by my claims so I'll call it even. You think the races should have true dynamic weather, whereas I do not. I don't know why you even brought in a comment that I made in another thread about a different topic. It seems like you're really trying hard to prove me wrong, despite the fact both issues at hand are a matter of personal opinion. Don't start implying that I'm a hypocrite when the topics are different.

Yep, I'm unmoved just as you are by my opinions.

At first I did think you were at odds with yourself (not so much hypocritical), with one opinion about racing being from a drivers point of view and the other from the spectators but now I don't think you are at all and I'll explain why in this post. It's just that we seem to be at polar opposite ends of a sliding scale and we'll just have to agree to disagree on most things racing related, be it sim or real.

Please correct me if I'm making a wrong assumption here. The sliding scale I'm referring to is with pure entertainment at one end and traditional sport at the other. Neither end, or anywhere in between is right or wrong as pretty much all sport is based on both. It just seems to me like all of your views on motorsport, sim or real, tend to be far more entertainment based (therefore not hypocritical) whereas mine are far more traditionally based.

I do apologise if you felt that I was just trying to prove you wrong, that wasn't my intention. I was just trying to show you things from my perspective.

 

[ferhound]

Fixed real life weather like Black & White (PC game) had. Just imagine a real conditions based on actual forecast readings!

 

[ScottPye20]

Please correct me if I'm making a wrong assumption here. The sliding scale I'm referring to is with pure entertainment at one end and traditional sport at the other. Neither end, or anywhere in between is right or wrong as pretty much all sport is based on both. It just seems to me like all of your views on motorsport, sim or real, tend to be far more entertainment based (therefore not hypocritical) whereas mine are far more traditionally based.

I do apologise if you felt that I was just trying to prove you wrong, that wasn't my intention. I was just trying to show you things from my perspective.

I can agree with you on that one.

 

[HaydenFan69]

The weather effects overall are not an issue with the racing. Realistically, to maintain a level of fairness from PD and the sanctioning body (FIA), you have to have a stable fixed setting. Rain, cloudy, sunny, etc.

The issue I have, and I've said it many times in the FIA Series' thread was about the overall process of an FIA event and how the weather is applied. With the series, we get 3-4 days to practice for said event. So in the case of wet weather, you are essentially removing the challenge of the adverse conditions.

I feel for the FIA sanctioned events, wet weather conditions should not be applied. Or done in a way, in which say, on race day do we get the info that it is a wet race. Brings the randomness back to racing, and in effect, lets the cream rise to the top. It will hurt the Australasian drivers, while benefiting the European and American drivers, but would be the only way I see it being a true challenge.

 

[05XR8]

It only hurts players that do the first race. If it's wet again for the next two races, provided players don't get disconnected, those after benefit from those reporting how the first race went.

Weather works if it's random each and every slot. Could even randomise fuel/tyre wear per slot.

 

[Samus]

The supposed advantage from practicing is solved not with how you apply the weather but with a base dynamic track, like pCARS. Practicing over and over wouldn't help as much if each race has different base levels of grip. So two wet weather races would never be exactly the same.

 

[05XR8]

The supposed advantage from practicing is solved not with how you apply the weather but with a base dynamic track, like pCARS. Practicing over and over wouldn't help as much if each race has different base levels of grip. So two wet weather races would never be exactly the same.

This is also where track surface data comes into play. Just like PCars, it could be a thing where each race after the first slot, has rubber laid down for the races after.

Each slot doesn't have to be "green".

Just as an example, if there were multiple collisions in one slot, the next slot could have less grip. In real life, if there is oil, loose parts, the track has compound laid down over slippery matter and track gets swept from debris. Anyway, there still could be rubber left from a previous race. Players in the next slot, would have to be cautious off the racing line, but may have more grip, due to the surface being rubbed in.

I'd still love track surface indicated: abrasive, smooth, bumpy.

As for FIA, last night's Manu race was long. The cars were slow. Many in my race made complaints about how slow the cars were. Maybe due to the time of day(sunny), looked like a hot day, there was no grip. Especially on the hard tyre.

It was indeed near a real life GT4 Sprint race, at 35 minutes. It'd be interesting if we had mandatory pit stop windows like the real GT4 European series.

 

[mastretta_mx]

Easy solution:

-FIA Sanctioned races with fixed weather
- Lobby, career mode and online no FIA races with Dynamic (under the theory the game would have )

 

[05XR8]

Wonder how the new "grip meter" will effect how much players stay on the ideal racing line.
We know driving off the racing line in a corner, is met with low grip on the marbles. However, in wet weather, can we cool the grooved wet tyres by driving off the racing line searching for water. Also, driving off the racing line to gain more grip where that excess rubber is and the slippery oil isn't?

Either way, by experience, could see less divebombing and more processional racing. The grip meter, is like a warning(without an audible pit engineer or track spotter) light to keep players on the ideal line. In a way, educating players to stay on the best line for the fastest way around a circuit.

When it comes to FIA qualifying, with only 5 minutes, are people going to rush to be first out the pits? Be the pioneer and clear the track for those behind? I don't know. Could be more strategy involved, moving forward.

 

[Erebus_9]

Another thought - if the track is slowly drying out towards the end of a race, could we see people gambling on intermediates or even slicks? That'd be another interesting strategy call - people are absolutely going to mess it up until the community figures out the best time to change tyres. I see the potential for a lot of chaos in the first few FIA races with dynamic weather...