Electric cars .

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United Kingdom
United Kingdom
Two questions for PD ......

1. Why can't we allow gearing to be changed in EVs ... seems silly that crazy engine swaps like stuffing engines in tiny Fiat's is fine , but altering the final drive on an EV is not allowed . Almost all the EVS in GT7 are handicapped with low max speed .

2. As we already have loads of "fantasy vision" cars , why not make some Gr 3 or Gr 4 EVs . ..
 
Two questions for PD ......

1. Why can't we allow gearing to be changed in EVs ... seems silly that crazy engine swaps like stuffing engines in tiny Fiat's is fine , but altering the final drive on an EV is not allowed . Almost all the EVS in GT7 are handicapped with low max speed .

2. As we already have loads of "fantasy vision" cars , why not make some Gr 3 or Gr 4 EVs . ..

Because EV’s don’t have gears, so you can’t change something that a car doesn’t actually have. They do the same with other cars that don’t have certain features in game too, it’s cal being realistic.
 
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Because EV’s don’t have gears, so you can’t change something that a car doesn’t actually have. They do the same with other cars that don’t have certain features in game too, it’s cal being realistic.
Even if it's unrealistic I think having gears would be nice just to make the cars more competitive for top speed compared to combustion engine cars.

Also, the Porsche Taycan actually has gears.
 
Because EV’s don’t have gears, so you can’t change something that a car doesn’t actually have. They do the same with other cars that don’t have certain features in game too, it’s cal being realistic.
They do and they don't. Most electric cars don't need a gear box, in the traditional ICE sense, but some choose to use one. Its a fully automated change and i don't think you wouldn't have any sensation of that change taking place. I know the Taycan and the Audi equivalent have a 2-speed gear box like that, i imagine others do too. But even so, there is a gearbox transmission, even in the true single speed EVs as the electric motor still needs to transmit the rotational power to traditional drive shafts. It may not be called a final drive (i don't know if it is or not) but there are gears in there that could potentially be changed to a different ratio.

Trouble is, with only one or two gears if you change the 'final drive' ratio to get a high top speed you will reduce acceleration to a higher degree then you would in a 6 or 8 speed ICE car as you have less scope to play around with the individual ratios to maintain a similar low end acceleration.
 
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Id say make them as realistic as possible and let people figure it out. Its still in a fledgling state. But also, its the undeniable future of transportation. Might as well start fleshing it out. Just keep it accurate and let the chips fall.
 
I think this implies that the fuel consumption rate also applies to the batteries of electric vehicles. :lol:
Yes, it certainly does. Funny that you can get some cars to run all 12 laps without pitting and still win the race, but the Tesla can't even make it to the hairpin before dying.
 
Who said Evs can't have gears .... well they are "fake" gears but it's got gears . 🤣

I don’t think anyone here said they can’t, in fact everything I’ve seen posted prior to this one from you is accurate. Most EVs only have 1 gear. There is the Taycan and an Audi EV that do have 2 gears though. That EV prototype in the link isn’t in the game, but if it were I’m certain it would have the correct transmission as the real life version it was modeled after.
 
My Kia Niro EV only has one "gear". My Chevy Volt before that only had 1 "gear" (but a much more complex hybrid system of planetary gears and direct drive components). I would love to see more EV's get a second "high speed" gear put in them, but my guess is that the engineers have tried this and have not found the efficiency to increase at high speeds vs the single "gear".

EV's in real life have many upsides to them but there are a couple downsides: 1) High speed efficiency needs to get better and 2) cold weather efficiency needs to get better. In the summer I can get over 6 miles/kWh at speeds below 40mph. In gasoline terms, that's like getting 130-140 mpg. At 70mph on the highway, it drops to about 4 miles/kWh. Thats a 33% efficiency loss which, frankly, sucks. If a second gear, ie. a "High Speed" gear, could net only a 15-20% loss, that would greatly increase your drivable range at highway speeds. Most normal EV cars could see a 50-80 mile range increase if that type of efficiency gain could be found. Low speed driving would be unaffected. But my guess is that the efficiency losses are more from wind resistance and general aerodynamic drag than the motor spinning at high speeds. Cold weather efficiency (below 40* Fahrenheit) drops the efficiency another ~25%, and that is without using any heat in the car, expect ~30% efficiency loss if you use heat. So that needs to get worked on as well. Fortunately, we are still in the early days of EV cars and it will only get better as more time, testing and technology comes in to the fray.
 
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If we can jam a sequential racing gearbox into basically all other kinds of car in the game, we should be able to have an adjustable "gearbox" for EVs as an upgrade. Especially now that manufacturers like Toyota and Hyundai are playing around with simulated gearing for EVs IRL.
 
Even with PD's take on GT3 and GT4, those real world regulations don't allow hybrids and EVs. I don't see PD adding hybrids in those two classes.

EV range may be another reason. Though, PD run short race events any way.
I guess, if PD wanted to conjure some GT EVs, maybe see how long Formula E cars run during an event. Extreme E off-roading and maybe, the defunct E TCR as another reference.

As much as PD can fake numbers for fantasy cars(looking at the Gr.4 Bugatti and Gr.4 Citroen), adding EVs to Gr.3 and Gr.4 seems like it will not happen.
 
EVs not being able to have a gearbox/transmission upgrade is just another arbitrary limitation from PD in my view. To say that I shouldn't be able to put in a gearbox on an EV because the stock car doesn't have one is like telling me I can't put a turbocharger or a nitrous tank on my RX-8 because the stock car doesn't have either. The logic is inconsistent. I mean, heck, they even allow EVs to "refuel" in pit stops at the same %/s rate as ICE cars, I don't think stuffing a gearbox between the motor and wheels is a big ask.

As others have already pointed out, EVs can use gearboxes to gain mechanical/efficiency advantages, from the 6 speed manual AE86 EV made by Toyota themselves that's not in the game, to the Taycan that is in the game. I think the issue here is that most EVs have individual motors at each wheel that drive each wheel independently, allowing for stuff like torque vectoring. Admittedly, as much as I want to see EVs being able to have gears, routing all four electric motors' torque into one gearbox and then redistributing that via two differentials seems incredibly complicated. Would still be cool to be able to do, though. Add 100 kilos to the car and make me change gearbox oil to make it realistic if it's necessary—I just want more options to play with in a sandbox environment.

At this point, EVs are an useless joke in the game because of their abysmal longevity and poor top speeds. Being able to equip them with adjustable gearboxes to fix their top speed issue will at least make them more viable and competitive in short sprints with fuel consumption turned off. If there's any logical argument to be made against giving EVs the ability to equip custom gearboxes, I think EVs with custom gearboxes might just completely outclass internal combustion cars in a sprint race. But if that were the issue, high difficulty single–player events could just disallow any car with the "#EV" tag.
 
EVs not being able to have a gearbox/transmission upgrade is just another arbitrary limitation from PD in my view. To say that I shouldn't be able to put in a gearbox on an EV because the stock car doesn't have one is like telling me I can't put a turbocharger or a nitrous tank on my RX-8 because the stock car doesn't have either. The logic is inconsistent.
By definition it’s not an ‘arbitrary’ limitation from PD since it’s based on real world design and production of EVs.

The two are different situations as you can put aftermarket turbochargers and nitrous on the RX-8 in real world applications. I don’t see any real world applications of people putting transmissions in their Teslas except those that convert to combustion engines that have transmissions. The logic here is consistent to the real world.
 
By definition it’s not an ‘arbitrary’ limitation from PD since it’s based on real world design and production of EVs.

The two are different situations as you can put aftermarket turbochargers and nitrous on the RX-8 in real world applications. I don’t see any real world applications of people putting transmissions in their Teslas except those that convert to combustion engines that have transmissions. The logic here is consistent to the real world.
True, but it is possible to have an electric car with a "real" transmission. It's not as common as the usual direct drive setup but examples do exist. For instance, the Gen 1 Formula E cars all used 5 speed sequential transmissions at first. Does having a real transmission in an electric car make any sense? Maybe not. But it would make things more fair in game.
 
True, but it is possible to have an electric car with a "real" transmission. It's not as common as the usual direct drive setup but examples do exist. For instance, the Gen 1 Formula E cars all used 5 speed sequential transmissions at first. Does having a real transmission in an electric car make any sense? Maybe not. But it would make things more fair in game.
It is possible, yes, and examples do exist, but that’s irrelevant to OPs question. Of the EVs in GT7 that exist in the real world, which ones have transmissions or have even had aftermarket transmissions included in a custom build that didn’t involve converting to a combustion engine? Which ones have the ability for you to adjust the gearing or final drive?

PD chose to keep the EV tuning realistic, simple as that.
 
By definition it’s not an ‘arbitrary’ limitation from PD since it’s based on real world design and production of EVs.

The two are different situations as you can put aftermarket turbochargers and nitrous on the RX-8 in real world applications. I don’t see any real world applications of people putting transmissions in their Teslas except those that convert to combustion engines that have transmissions. The logic here is consistent to the real world.
I don't know anyone who has stuck a Chiron engine into a Viper IRL. I don't know anyone who managed to squeeze 514HP out of an Ambulance. I very highly doubt a bone stock C1 Corvette has 240HP at the crank, nor can I believe that a LaFerrari in running condition really weighs in under 1,300kg (2,866lbs). I have no idea how a driver is supposed to see out of a Peugeot VGT without windows, or how a topless Volkswagen VGT can be eligible for a GT3 equivalent class.

There are a lot of flights of fancy, guesstimations, and creative liberties with the internal combustion cars in the game, and I don't see why EVs can't be allowed the same leeway in fantasy. While there aren't many EVs IRL that have multiple forward gears, the fact is such a feat has already been done before; it's less a flight of fancy than any of the ICE shenanigans I've listed in the previous paragraph.

If the only argument against EVs being able to equip aftermarket gearboxes/transmissions is that it's "unrealistic", then I'm sorry, it's an argument I can't buy at all.
 
The simplest argument to the OP’s question is that PD doesn’t want to make the EV cars even competition for the ICE cars. Just like PD doesn’t want to fix the penalty system in Sport Mode. Just like PD doesn’t want to balance out the credits to make races more equitable. Just like PD doesn’t want to change the roulette system. Just like PD doesn’t want to make a better single player mode. Just like PD doesn’t want to make the daily races more exciting. Just like PD…. You get my point.

This is PD’s game. They make the rules, you play by them. If you exploit the rules, they patch it.

So the reason why you can’t put in a racing transmission or change the final drive gear on the EVs is because PD doesn’t want to.
 
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I own a Model S Plaid with a top speed of 212mph. 3 motors, AWD, 1000hp, 400 mile range.

When GT7 came out, I was excited about the idea of getting to drive a simulated version of my car on actual racetracks.

Alas, the only Model S in the game is the insanely outdated 12 year old version, with a 135mph top speed, single motor, RWD, less than 200 mile range version. EVs have made a ton of progress in every category in the last 12 years. It’s not remotely the same car.

The bigger problem is the laughable battery range. I tried the WTC600 at Tokyo with the Tesla Model S. Ran out of battery in less than 1 lap.

Well that does not reflect reality. While battery range hasn’t quite caught up to gas cars, and battery heat soak still happens after a while, a Tesla can easily complete a hot lap at most courses before that happens. The Model S did the Nurburgring in 7:25, which ain’t bad for a 3800 pound family sedan.

Is it realistic to do a long multi-lap race in one? Nah, but MANY of GT7’s races are absurdly unrealistic. Doesn’t mean it wouldn’t be fun.

It is possible, yes, and examples do exist, but that’s irrelevant to OPs question. Of the EVs in GT7 that exist in the real world, which ones have transmissions or have even had aftermarket transmissions included in a custom build that didn’t involve converting to a combustion engine? Which ones have the ability for you to adjust the gearing or final drive?

PD chose to keep the EV tuning realistic, simple as that.

I wouldn’t give them too much credit on the realism angle. At launch, you could take the Model S to GT Auto and give it an oil change.
 
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My Kia Niro EV only has one "gear". My Chevy Volt before that only had 1 "gear" (but a much more complex hybrid system of planetary gears and direct drive components). I would love to see more EV's get a second "high speed" gear put in them, but my guess is that the engineers have tried this and have not found the efficiency to increase at high speeds vs the single "gear".

EV's in real life have many upsides to them but there are a couple downsides: 1) High speed efficiency needs to get better and 2) cold weather efficiency needs to get better. In the summer I can get over 6 miles/kWh at speeds below 40mph. In gasoline terms, that like getting 130-140 mpg. At 70mph on the highway, it drops to about 4 miles/kWh. Thats a 33% efficiency loss which, frankly, sucks. If a second gear, ie. a "High Speed" gear, could net only a 15-20% loss, that would greatly increase your drivable range at highway speeds. Most normal EV cars could see a 50-80 mile range increase if that type of efficiency gain could be found. Low speed driving would be unaffected. But my guess is that the efficiency losses are more from wind resistance and general aerodynamic drag than the motor spinning at high speeds. Cold weather efficiency (below 40* Fahrenheit) drops the efficiency another ~25%, and that is without using any heat in the car, expect ~30% efficiency loss if you use heat. So that needs to get worked on as well. Fortunately, we are still in the early days of EV cars and it will only get better as more time, testing and technology comes in to the fray.

First, I agree with you, EVs are still evolving and have a little ways to go before they're ideal for EVERY use case. But to address your two main points:

1. High Speed Efficiency -- The thing is, high speed efficiency literally can't get better. EV motors are already almost 100% efficient at all RPMs, to the point where wind resistance is really the only factor affecting efficiency. The reason they SEEM inefficient at high speeds is because gas engines are extremely inefficient at low speeds, and slightly less inefficient at high speeds, so we're used to seeing better mileage at high speeds than at lower speeds. But EVs are equally efficient (near 100%) at all speeds / RPMs, so even with extremely aerodynamic designs, this guarantees (non-linear) efficiency loss as speed increases due almost entirely to wind resistance. In gas cars, wind resistance is a much smaller piece of the efficiency pie. Because so much of the power released by the gasoline combustion is already being consumed as noise, heat, internal machinery, and the effects of a relatively narrow power band compared to EVs, the added inefficiency of wind resistance is just one of a large number of inefficiencies for a gas car, rather than almost the only factor like an EV.

A transmission does nothing for an EV's high-speed efficiency, since electric motors are (roughly) equally efficient at all RPMs. All it does is allow a higher top speed if the motor happens to be running out of usable RPMs. The added weight, complexity, and drivetrain drag definitely wouldn't have a positive effect on high speed efficiency. Its only use is higher top speed, at the expense of efficiency. Honestly, using a transmission simply doesn't make sense for a motor that has equal torque and nearly identical efficiency across its entire RPM range. Picking an appropriate final drive ratio is the real answer that I think all EV makers are going to come to, even for high-performance models. The Model S gets to 212mph in first gear. No tranny needed*. But back to the point -- in the end, it's the wind that affects EV range at high speeds, not the high RPMs.

2. Cold Weather Efficiency: Tesla greatly improved cold weather efficiency by switching from a traditional resistance heater to a heat pump system in their newer models, and uses software to strategically keep the battery warm. I think the cold weather issue is overblown anyway ... practically all new cars in Norway are EVs, and I think it gets more than a bit chilly over there. I mean you're not wrong, range is definitely reduced in cold weather. But it's not a dealbreaker IMO or apparently in Norway's opinion either.

* the motors that drive the rear wheels have a different final drive ratio than the motor that drives the front wheels ... is that technically "two gears" even though they're both usually active at the same time? The software shifts the front/rear balance dynamically for various power / efficiency / handling reasons but i don't know the details.
 
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But it's not a dealbreaker IMO or apparently in Norway's opinion either.
To be fair, that deal is more than somewhat sweetened by the zero sales tax, VAT exemption, and road tax exemption on new EVs in Norway.

A reasonably hi-spec petrol Nissan Qashqai is a little more expensive than a Model Y (~$55,000) in Norway, compared to 25% less in the UK and close to 40% less in the USA.

However, that's ending soon (or may have already). After swelling the EV share of the new car market from 50% to 80% in the past three years, Norway has run out of cars to tax and needs more money - so the road tax and VAT exemptions are going in the bin.
 
To be fair, that deal is more than somewhat sweetened by the zero sales tax, VAT exemption, and road tax exemption on new EVs in Norway.

A reasonably hi-spec petrol Nissan Qashqai is a little more expensive than a Model Y (~$55,000) in Norway, compared to 25% less in the UK and close to 40% less in the USA.

However, that's ending soon (or may have already). After swelling the EV share of the new car market from 50% to 80% in the past three years, Norway has run out of cars to tax and needs more money - so the road tax and VAT exemptions are going in the bin.

true, EV adoption was largely stoked by government incentives. But the people wouldn't be buying them in those numbers (something like 85% of new cars are EVs there) if they didn't work in the cold.
 
true, EV adoption was largely stoked by government incentives. But the people wouldn't be buying them in those numbers (something like 85% of new cars are EVs there) if they didn't work in the cold.
It's not just the Norwegian government's incentives to get people into EVs that has driven the take up, it's as much about their disincentives towards petrol and diesel vehicles, like high taxes* and high fuel prices* (driven by higher tax on those fuels) that made the switch to pure EV's the sensible ecconomic choice. They also have a good charging network.

Although by European standards Norway has a fairly big land mass and the distance from top to bottom is quite far, most of the population lives on the coastal regions of the southern tip, so long car journeys are probably not common in the way that they are in the US. Less efficiency in the cold doesn't matter as much if you can still easily do all your days driving on a single charge.

*compared to the rest of Europe on average.
 
Arbitrarily so, considering other cars don't adhere so rigidly to "realism".

Sometimes realism should give way to gameplay balance.
Not allowing the adjustment of gears in EVs in GT7 that don’t even have them in real world is not an arbitrary decision by PD. The decision is based on reality, therefor not arbitrary by definition. What is arbitrary decision by PD is allowing those unrealistic changes to other cars based on nothing other than they felt like doing/allowing it.

I agree, sometimes realism should (and does) give way to gameplay balance or enjoyment. All I’m doing is helping those understand that this is a case where PD chose to stay true to real world in regard to tuning EVs. I’m not saying they can’t or shouldn't do this or that, just that this is how these EVs in the game work in real world because it was obvious OP didn’t know EVs only have 1 or 2 gears which aren’t adjustable, with the exception of some newer concept/prototype EVs or highly custom racing applications that don’t exist in this game.
 

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