Elise in america without the dam rover engine

[Scaff]

With regard to the HP issue on the last page, the Celica T-sport in the UK is rated at 190bhp not 180bhp as the US models appear to be (from the various posts).

My current company car is a standard Celica (140bhp), which is basically the same drivetrain. The six speed box is a gem, nice slick changes that help keep the changes short and the revs high.

With a Lotus re-mapped ECU is a good choice in my opinion. I also read the same article as pushrod and from the sounds of its performance in the S2 Exige its going to be a hit.

It does seem from the posts about the stereo and comparisons to the MX-5 that some people still don't get the point of the Elise. Its a track car that you can drive to and from the track, its not for doing the shopping or the school run (although I do know a few people who use them as daily drivers).

 

[-Fred-]

Originally posted by mr_pushrod

Interestingly, the reason given for using the Toyota engine over a Honda one (they were the two top choices) was that Lotus and Toyota have 'historical links dating back to the early '80s'.

I must have missed something here...

Obviously, Honda was asking too much for its engines, so they turned to Toyota instead, with whom they shared a few concept cars in the early 80s.

 

[Driftster]

I agree there, Honda was probably asking alot....So instead of dishing out the $ for a better engine...They "settled" for the toy...

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

I am betting that the "tinkering" Lotus does with the 2ZZ-GE is something along the lines of lowering the RPM in which Lift kicks in.

I know MANY Celi GT-S owners have said that if lift kicked in sooner they would be MUCH more happier with the engine.

I just hope they do something to battle the non-existant torque in the low range. But I am not really sure what they could do for that.

 

[Driftster]

it's a N/A 4 banger........very very very veeerry few N/A 4 bangers make good TQ........So if they're using a Toyo engine it's just gonna rely on revs like most other na 4 bangers...it'll be coo none the less

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

Heres a link from Lotus regarding the engine
http://www.lotuscars.com/engine-announcement.html

 

[Driftster]

Yeah so it was probably purely a price issue, because that doesnt explain why they picked the toy over the honda....considering the honda makes more HP and Torque in stock trim.....I'm of course speaking of the K20A

 

[1X83Z]

Originally posted by GilesGuthrie
Your obsession with price and relative value is quite amusing. A lot of owners don't take the stereo in an Elise because it adds 5Kg to the weight, and they never use it anyway because it's a car to go thrashing around the countryside in. Also, people who buy Elises like to take the car to a car stereo shop and fit their own specialised stereo system.

Not for $40k! Americans are posers! Every single one of them!! If you actually think an American is going to spend $40k for something without floormats and a radio, then you need to spend a bit more time with Americans! There is not a single car in America that doesn't offer a radio and floormats. Not one. Kia Rio included. If Americans can't stand to be without a radio on a $9800 Kia Rio, they won't bear the thought of no radio on an $39000 sports car.

Your second paragraph seems to defeat itself. Are you really claiming that people should compare cars across classes, and then, in the same breath, saying that two two-seat roadsters should not be compared with each other? It's like saying that a 3-series is a better car than a Caterham (because, hey, you get a stereo as standard), but that it isn't valid to compare a 3-series with an A4.

No! I'm saying, compare within class, but also compare out of class. Do both, not one exclusively. And you've taken my example to extremely. I'm thinking, if somebody's looking at a Camry maybe they'll also want a look at an Outback or a Highlander, and it might be wise to compare them as such. 3-series v Caterham isn't so wise.

An an Elise being worth $20,000 more than an asthmatic, slushy, base-model MX-5? Absolutely. No question.

But an Elise being better than a Mitsubishi Endeavor AWD Limited and a 1994 BMW 530iT? Not quite.

 

[GilesGuthrie]

Originally posted by M5Power
Not for $40k! Americans are posers! Every single one of them!! If you actually think an American is going to spend $40k for something without floormats and a radio, then you need to spend a bit more time with Americans! There is not a single car in America that doesn't offer a radio and floormats. Not one. Kia Rio included. If Americans can't stand to be without a radio on a $9800 Kia Rio, they won't bear the thought of no radio on an $39000 sports car.

Well, I guess you can't legislate for that mentality. Would you pay money for a stereo to be fitted to something with a glorious engine? Like a Lamborghini?

Originally posted by M5Power
No! I'm saying, compare within class, but also compare out of class. Do both, not one exclusively. And you've taken my example to extremely. I'm thinking, if somebody's looking at a Camry maybe they'll also want a look at an Outback or a Highlander, and it might be wise to compare them as such. 3-series v Caterham isn't so wise.

Fair enough. I can see where you're coming from, and I think it works in Mike Rotch's S4 v M3 v STi v Evo VIII v C32 thread, because I genuinely believe that the Germans in that list exist above the Japanese in terms of class.

Originally posted by M5Power
But an Elise being better than a Mitsubishi Endeavor AWD Limited and a 1994 BMW 530iT? Not quite.

This is like comparing 3-series with Caterham. There's no what that anyone who would be thinking of buying a 530iT would also have an Elise on their shopping list!

 

[retsmah]

Originally posted by M5Power


Not for $40k! Americans are posers! Every single one of them!! If you actually think an American is going to spend $40k for something without floormats and a radio, then you need to spend a bit more time with Americans! [/B]

Not everyone wants that stuff, especially when they are buying a car like the Elise which is just for weekend / track driving. It's a specialty car, obviously it isn't going to appeal to most Americans.

I think it's probably worth the money, I doubt there are many cars that are under $40k that would be more fun to drive. It's kinda hard to say what the value of a car is, some people will pay like $50k plus for a Mercedes SUV, I wouldn't pay anything for one.

 

[1X83Z]

Originally posted by GilesGuthrie
Well, I guess you can't legislate for that mentality. Would you pay money for a stereo to be fitted to something with a glorious engine? Like a Lamborghini?

No! I'd expect it to be standard!!

This is like comparing 3-series with Caterham. There's no what that anyone who would be thinking of buying a 530iT would also have an Elise on their shopping list!

I want a 530iT, and if the Elise were quite a bit cheaper, I'd want an Elise. Ha! I also want the Endeavor!

It's a specialty car, obviously it isn't going to appeal to most Americans.

I thought the point of bringing the Elise to the US was to bring fledgeling Malaysian make Proton some much needed cash. Lotus doesn't need an image car - hell, they've got no US image. They need sales and to establish a presence.

 

[ShobThaBob]

Lotus is doing it their way, and they dont care. There are plenty of Americans who are willing to pay for a good track car without a stereo, so many in fact, that if you order from the only lotus dealership in houston, youre going to have to wait a year and half after they are released before you can get one. They realized that they could make some money off the US market because of Gran Turismo. It is all about Gran Turismo. At the houston unveiling of the Elise, nearly every person who put down deposits for them (on the spot) said "wow, I was wondering when they were going to bring the elise over, Ive had so much fun with it in Gran Turismo". The game really is the best marketing Lotus has ever done. What this all boils down to though is taste. If you believe a Miata is a better way to spend your money, then thats cool, but dont whine when it gets lapped by an Elise (or when you lose a stoplight race to an elise).

Now the only product lotus needs to bring over is the exige...heheheheh.

 

[neanderthal]

i find ironic that M5 power is talking about cross shopping cars here. in another thread he was adamant that people shouldnt compare cars betweeen sizes and categories and even prices.

anyway theres gonna be a few clueless people that buy the elise because its the latest and newest. and i hope plenty do, we need lotus to be very succesful with this car here. but they are going to be very disappointed.

i think the majority of people who are going to buy it are already aware that this is not a camry of 5 series. this is a hardcore, focused car. and i think for the most part, they are going to be willing to live with what compromises that entails. for those that are heartily disappointed, it means enthusiasts like us will reap the benefit as used cars become available with the resultant lower prices.

 

[bengee]

Originally posted by neanderthal
for those that are heartily disappointed, it means enthusiasts like us will reap the benefit as used cars become available with the resultant lower prices.

please oh please let this come true... lol

 

[mr_pushrod]

Originally posted by PunkRock
Obviously, Honda was asking too much for its engines, so they turned to Toyota instead, with whom they shared a few concept cars in the early 80s.

It was also said that Toyota had a small shareholding in Lotus at that time and that they were a 'Co-operative partner'.

 

[Gil]

Originally posted by bengee
That is estimated lol...

Hell its smaller than the miata so should cost more right... Its definitely a whole lot better than the miata, but i am also not sure if its worth 40k... Does anyone know how much the espirits cost in the us??? I have seen one at a jaguar dealership...

I hope you're sitting down. I have some bad news as quoted in the November 2003 issue of Road and Track:

"After 28 years, the Lotus Esprit will finally drive of into the sunset. Not a lost has changed with the car since the original Series 1 made its debut in 1975. We've seen a number of different engines, from the 2.0 liter normally aspirated inline-4 to the current twin-turbo V-8, but he basic shape and construction of the type 79 (ans later 82 and 85) have remained constant of the decades. The last batch of cars will e a mixture of 2003's and 2004's, which are available as we speak. Production stops at the end of the year."

The king is dead! Long live the king!

 

[risingson77]

Originally posted by Rumple Foreskin
Hmmm...
I am getting different info from a lot of sources regarding the 2ZZ-GE.

"The 2ZZ-GE puts out 140 kW (190 bhp) at 7600 rpm and 180 N•m (133 lb•ft) at 6800 rpm on a raised 11.5:1 CR with premium unleaded fuel."

If thats the case then why is the Celica GT-S rated at 180hp when they are stateing 190 there?

Well, 11.5:1 is the stock CR for the Celica. Slightly more agressive cams could easily net 10 BHP. I just hope that they shortened the gearing or raised the rev-limiter...

 

[1X83Z]

Originally posted by neanderthal
i find ironic that M5 power is talking about cross shopping cars here. in another thread he was adamant that people shouldnt compare cars betweeen sizes and categories and even prices.

You've missed the point of that discussion, and you've certainly missed the point of how it relates to this one. And if I explain it to you, you'll probably manage to miss another two or three points, so I'm not going to bother.

 

[neanderthal]

in that other discussion we were discussing mid size cars in general and i happened to include one to two which you took umbrage to, for reasons related to EPA listed size (pontiac gtp)and retail price (kia or hyundai.)

You've missed the point of that discussion, and you've certainly missed the point of how it relates to this one. And if I explain it to you, you'll probably manage to miss another two or three points, so I'm not going to bother.

yeah, right. whatever.

 

[1X83Z]

Originally posted by neanderthal
in that other discussion we were discussing mid size cars in general and i happened to include one to two which you took umbrage to, for reasons related to EPA listed size (pontiac gtp)and retail price (kia or hyundai.)

EPA size, fuel economy, base engine size, base price, and competitiveness within the class. But of course you missed all thsoe but the first one... 👍

yeah, right. whatever.

Yeah! Like you'd ever miss a point!

The point of that one was how you were comparing cars of different classes to get the end result you wanted. I'm stating something completely different here, that sometimes people don't only look at one class of cars when buying something new, but several completely different classes.

Whatever. Point is, you're the worst GTP member I've ever argued anything with. Please don't respond to my posts anymore, it'd be really nice. 👍

 

[neanderthal]

Whatever. Point is, you're the worst GTP member I've ever argued anything with. Please don't respond to my posts anymore, it'd be really nice.

thank you.

ive been called worse things by better people than you. but thank you anyway.

i will respond to any bull**** i see posted, regardless of who posts it. so if you want me to stop replying to your posts perhaps you should curtail your activities here, or severely censor yourself before you post. or even better, argue intelligently and research your facts before you post. then maybe when you argue articulately and intelligently, with facts, not opinion, then maybe i will cease to reply some of your posts. it would behoove you to not employ strawman arguments/ tactics when trying to rebuff whatever points i may present.

that would be nice.

 

[bengee]

You all can argue elsewhere... i want to hear about what people think of the elise coming to america without the dam rover engine...

 

[ShobThaBob]

If I had the money...Id get a corvette. The elise is gonna be a huge it. End of story.

 

[Driftster]

I like the elise and all, but i'd never buy one...Great car, awesome performer....But it's toooo small....Too girly, like the Mx5 and the Del Sol, and a # of other cars.....Too small to be taken as a masculine car in the American market.

 

[bengee]

When people immediately think big and heavy is better the world has forgotten the essence of sports cars...

 

[1X83Z]

Originally posted by neanderthal
or even better, argue intelligently and research your facts before you post.

Does that mean I have to cite examples when I call you a jackass?

 

[Driftster]

Bengee....No...Its just the lines of the body promote estrogen enduced design......not ALL small cars are bad.....Rx-7's are small...they look great...Porsches are small..they look great.....the elise just doesn't look as masculine as other cars in it's size range...Hell even the MR-S isn't as bad.

 

[neanderthal]

Originally posted by M5Power


Does that mean I have to cite examples when I call you a jackass? [/B]

no you need to offer evidence. anybody can be a jackass once.

people are forgetting that the elise is not designed to be an everyday car. its designed to be a sports car you can use everyday. there are better cars out there to do the daily mundane things that constitute life, but for the visceral thrills that come from apex hunting, the elise is in a class of its own. the fact that you can also drive it on the road and insure it is a boon.

the camry will always be a better grocery getter. but not if youre taking the "scenic" route there and back. or even better, going to the market,.......40 miles away through the hills and canyons, for a gallon of milk.

 

[bengee]

Originally posted by Driftster
Bengee....No...Its just the lines of the body promote estrogen enduced design......not ALL small cars are bad.....Rx-7's are small...they look great...Porsches are small..they look great.....the elise just doesn't look as masculine as other cars in it's size range...Hell even the MR-S isn't as bad.

what the mrs is better looking than the elise...
are we talking about he same elise... not the one in gt3... the elise 111s...

This is no chick car imo...

 

[ShobThaBob]

Yeah, the elise 111s is much more muscular than the 190 offered in GT3.