Engine costs cut from 2011

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7718682.stm

Formula One teams have agreed to cut the cost of customer engines by more than £12m from 2011, according to Ferrari chairman Luca di Montezemolo.

The move comes after motorsport boss Max Mosley asked the teams to come up with ways to cut costs in F1.

Montezemolo said that engines sold by manufacturers to teams would be slashed in cost in the future.

“We unanimously decided that by 2011 an engine will cost £4m, compared to the £16m plus they used to cost,” he said.

The move will be a huge help to the smaller teams as they try to survive in F1.
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Quite a big cut, only question on my mind is, why wait till 2011?
 
Because it may take a big turn-around in engine design now that a much smaller budget has been set. Aerospace materials engineering has got to the point that often the only way to get better results is with more expensive materials, wouldn't surprise me if that's much the case in F1 engine design aswell.
 
Because by 2011, Max said, costs are to be cut, else they'll have a spec engine provided to all.


It's unclear whether they'll simply increase the lifespan of current engines to 4-5 races and sell them at a slight loss, or come up with a new formula (which is improbable - costs of each team developing a new engine will be extremely high!), it's better than a completely-spec engine.
 
16 Million for an Engine?!
 
The companies that manufacture the engines are probably going to sell them at a loss which just adds to their costs, but I am all for the smaller teams staying in.
 
PeterJB
16 Million for an Engine?!
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Well it's about a million quid to rebuild one for people who buy EX F1 cars.
 
PeterJB
16 Million for an Engine?!
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It's not exactly 16 million for oen engine. I think u get like 10 engines for 16 million or something like that
 
Appie
It's not exactly 16 million for oen engine. I think u get like 10 engines for 16 million or something like that
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That's still 1.6 Million! I knew they were powerful but I assumed most of the money went into the super-fast Gearboxes and Clutch!
 
They probably have the whole unit (forgotten it's specific name) in one.
 
No, Transmission is just gearbox, clutch, etc. I might be thinking of power train...Though I'm really not sure.
 
Power train is engine, gearbox and everything that has to do with it, driveshaft if there is one, differentials and axles.
 
Does this cost cut mean that engine design will be freed, or do they have to stick with v8s?
 
Omnis
Does this cost cut mean that engine design will be freed, or do they have to stick with v8s?
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The engine configuration stays the same: V8 of x degrees, x max(or min) bore(or stroke), etc.

I think that because development on the engines is only allowed to improve reliability, the most expensive stuff is done, so the costs should come down. In reality I am sure the that big teams are still spending lots of money on ways to get more performance with 'reliability' fixes. Now they won't be passing those costs on the the customer teams.
 
Sureshot
They probably have the whole unit (forgotten it's specific name) in one.
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I think the specific name is Formula One Car! :lol:;)
 
But if it's anything like Red Bull's 2005 engine (one or two failures total)... Times have changed since 2006, you know. In a non-competitive environment, you can afford to sacrifice HP for reliability. :rolleyes:
 
Mt. Lynx
Spec-engine deal is done!
http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3213_4591276,00.html

Four teams have turned down the offer, so F1 is still a little alive.
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Well, I suppose I can agree with that half-way approach. At least there will still be teams with different spec engines, I hope the whole grid doesn't start using it though which I can see happening if more manufacturers leave.
I wonder which four teams have decided to go without? I'm guessing Ferrari, McLaren, Renault and BMW Sauber? Which would leave Toyota being the sole manufacturer to stop producing engines.
 
Metar
But if it's anything like Red Bull's 2005 engine (one or two failures total)... Times have changed since 2006, you know. In a non-competitive environment, you can afford to sacrifice HP for reliability. :rolleyes:
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Yeah, I know ... I'm just surprised Cosworth got the contract when their last F1 engine couldn't power a tricycle.
 
How do Cosworth expect to develop and make 12 engines (at least, for the 4 teams throughout season, excluding testing) for around £30m?
 
^By making more mediocre, unreliable engines. Which will no doubt see those teams using them soon switching back to other suppliers.
 
Their 2005 V10s were the cheapest by far, and quite reliable..
 
Alex.
How do Cosworth expect to develop and make 12 engines (at least, for the 4 teams throughout season, excluding testing) for around £30m?
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There'll be huge cost reduction in producing the same engine all season for several teams. Tooling will be the same, research will disappear and materials will probably not be as exotic as what are currently used.

Ardius
^By making more mediocre, unreliable engines. Which will no doubt see those teams using them soon switching back to other suppliers.
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Mediocre, maybe. Less reliable I highly doubt. Batch production (which they'll have to use to try and keep consistency) will be far, far more reliable than 1-off manufacture it'll be so much easier for little things to go wrong.
 
More spec-engine news;
http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3213_4618000,00.html

Does anyone see another team leaving because of this? Who?
I´m guessing Toyota is pretty upset about this deal. IIRC they were the ones who had the most to say against any spec ideas, so Toyota may be the next team to call it quits. Thoughts?

Some part of me actually hopes another team will leave, so Mosley and Bernie gets a wakeup call!
 
Mt. Lynx
Some part of me actually hopes another team will leave, so Mosley and Bernie gets a wakeup call!
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Actually, Bernie's pulled this kind of thing before when it comes to circuits: he has this proposition that he wants to put forward, but he knows he's going to meet resistance. So he puts forth a second proposal, one that is even less likely to be agreed upon. He's then able to bargain them down to what he really wants - the first proposal - and makes them think they were clever enough to come up with all these ideas on their own. If the teams agree to radically cut costs/adopt the medals system/whatever, it's entirely likely that this spec engine proposal will be forgotten.
 
Do you race?
Actually, Bernie's pulled this kind of thing before when it comes to circuits: he has this proposition that he wants to put forward, but he knows he's going to meet resistance. So he puts forth a second proposal, one that is even less likely to be agreed upon. He's then able to bargain them down to what he really wants - the first proposal - and makes them think they were clever enough to come up with all these ideas on their own. If the teams agree to radically cut costs/adopt the medals system/whatever, it's entirely likely that this spec engine proposal will be forgotten.
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I actually thought the whole medals-affair was just that - a cover for the spec-engines.
Another thing I hope for is that the teams running the spec-engine will be really dissapointed and just refuse them.
There are a lot of things they can spec in F1 - Brakes, tyres, wheelnuts, ECU, KERS, dampers and such, but engines is just totally against what F1 is really is about.
 
Yes I too think the medals idea was the one to make to engine deal look better.

KERS should be dropped. There's no point adding a new thing like that which will cost a lot of money when you are trying to cut costs.
 
Mt. Lynx
I actually thought the whole medals-affair was just that - a cover for the spec-engines.
Another thing I hope for is that the teams running the spec-engine will be really dissapointed and just refuse them.
There are a lot of things they can spec in F1 - Brakes, tyres, wheelnuts, ECU, KERS, dampers and such, but engines is just totally against what F1 is really is about.
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There's no point to half the teams running spec engines and half running in-house ones. Either all of them will use it, or none of them will. Bernie and Max can try and force them into it, but the teams have enough power that if they threaten to pull out, Bernie and Max will stand down. They can try and change the rules, but they have to stand by the Concorde Agreement, which dictates the minimum and maximum number of cars on the grid. If enough teams threaten a boycott, there won't be enough cars for a championship (that incident at Indy was a one-of), and as start-up costs are notoriously high, Bernie and Max will have no choice but to back off if they want the sport to survive.
 
Do you race?
There's no point to half the teams running spec engines and half running in-house ones. Either all of them will use it, or none of them will. Bernie and Max can try and force them into it, but the teams have enough power that if they threaten to pull out, Bernie and Max will stand down. They can try and change the rules, but they have to stand by the Concorde Agreement, which dictates the minimum and maximum number of cars on the grid. If enough teams threaten a boycott, there won't be enough cars for a championship (that incident at Indy was a one-of), and as start-up costs are notoriously high, Bernie and Max will have no choice but to back off if they want the sport to survive.
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From my earlier link;

"The remaining marques in Ferrari, McLaren - in conjunction with Mercedes-Benz - BMW Sauber and Toyota will have two options open to them: to build their own engine to the same specification as the Cosworth, or continue to use their existing units, but on a par in terms of performance."

If they are smart - and they most likely are - they will keep their current engines. That will (hopefully) eventually force the spec-units out.

I would love to see a return of Cosworth, but not in this way.

About the number of teams: the concordeagreement states 16 cars minimum, but also that some remaining teams preferably shall run three cars instead of two (IIRC).

EDIT: Been giving some thought about another retirement; I´m pretty convinced Toyota already are contemplating it. They have little success, an enormous waste of money, and if they have to run a spec-engine, their technical challange is all but spent. AFAIK we have heard little to nothing about their wintertesting aswell - are they developing anything at all? Plus they have a Le Mans contender under development. I can´t see any real future for Toyota in F1.
And from the remaining manufacturers I can only see Mercedes leaving. McLaren, Ferrari and BMW are all undoubtedly commited to F1. The only other team with the same kind of presence in F1 is Williams, but they have allready commited to the spec-engine.
 
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