Eurogamer preview

[PzR Slim]

Good to hear 👍

Stepping up to actually play the game, it's also easy to be a little complacent. Forza's handling has veered from the dry simulation of the second game to the more pliable cars of 3, but the one constant has been its forgiving nature. Within seconds it's clear that Forza has changed dramatically.

Switch off all the assists and engage Forza 4's all-new simulation handling mode and it's a strange and quite terrifying experience, a single lap of the fictional Alpine circuit seeing a Ferrari 599 spitting us into the scenery at every opportunity. The front engine, rear-wheel drive car lazily lunges into corners with heavy understeer before, just as it kisses the apex, snapping into aggressive oversteer that sends the rear flailing. After the relative stability of Forza 3's cars, it's a shock to find these cars so alive and so wild.

Rest can be found here http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-06-17-forza-4-preview

 

[Luminis]

Certainly a very good read, sounds very promising indeed 👍

 

[supergoop]

I'd like to see much better *racing* from the A.I. like position jockeying, spin-outs, and A.I. passing each other and changing positions.

One of my biggest peeves with both GT5 and Forza is that if you increase the A.I. difficulty so that you are don't end up "hot-lapping" all by yourself, you still only really compete with 1 or 2 AIs with the rest of the pack too far behind to be seen. What's the point having 8, 12 or 16 cars races when most of these AIs disappear from view after the 1/2 a lap.

Another minor peeve is that most of these E3 demos and preview gameplay shows someone bashing to the front within 1/4 lap and then "hotlapping" for the rest of the video as if they want to show-off getting to pole position as quickly as possible. I want to see more clean (but agressive) competitive racing gameplay with the A.I.

 

[Luminis]

Another minor peeve is that most of these E3 demos and preview gameplay shows someone bashing to the front within 1/4 lap and then "hotlapping" for the rest of the video as if they want to show-off getting to pole position as quickly as possible.

Sadly, that's propbably exactly what they're doing, I think.

 

[CAMAROBOY69]

Looks like I was right, when they release a demo it will for sure be on Alpine Circuit. Its going to be interresting to see how the handling is because I thought the handling physics were pretty dang good in F3. The tire physics on some of the cars had issues thats for sure. I think it was incorrect traction coding on certain cars. Hopefully that is resolved.

 

[phil-t]

I'd like to see much better *racing* from the A.I. like position jockeying, spin-outs, and A.I. passing each other and changing positions.

One of my biggest peeves with both GT5 and Forza is that if you increase the A.I. difficulty so that you are don't end up "hot-lapping" all by yourself, you still only really compete with 1 or 2 AIs with the rest of the pack too far behind to be seen. What's the point having 8, 12 or 16 cars races when most of these AIs disappear from view after the 1/2 a lap.

Another minor peeve is that most of these E3 demos and preview gameplay shows someone bashing to the front within 1/4 lap and then "hotlapping" for the rest of the video as if they want to show-off getting to pole position as quickly as possible. I want to see more clean (but agressive) competitive racing gameplay with the A.I.

In a couple of the standard E3 interview video's Dan G mentioned that AI will now be able to auto upgrade to keep themselves competitive, which I guess should potentially allow them to always challenge you.

Nice article, some good positive stuff in it whilst keeping their feet on the ground..

 

[CAMAROBOY69]

In a couple of the standard E3 interview video's Dan G mentioned that AI will now be able to auto upgrade to keep themselves competitive, which I guess should potentially allow them to always challenge you.

Nice article, some good positive stuff in it whilst keeping their feet on the ground..

The video with Dan showing how they "train" the AI was very impressive. 👍

 

[Luminis]

If the AI is really capable of challenging me, that'd be pretty awesome. One of the thinngs I really like about Shift 2 is the competitive AI... Well, partially competitive, but they're still doing an okay job.

Now, the only thing I really want and haven't heard anything about is widebody kits. They're widely used on track cars, and I'd love to have them in Forza. And while I'm at it, the licensed bodykits and wings should produce downforce, too.
If that's in the game, I guess I'll be a very, very happy man 👍

 

[Bogie 19th]

The video with Dan showing how they "train" the AI was very impressive. 👍

Do you recall which video?

 

[t.o.]

Article sounds promising to say the least. I gotta decide do I want to get the game early or wait a week or whatever and get it from the big box stores and get the added content.

 

[phil-t]

Do you recall which video?

The gamespot video and the Insidesimracing Dan G overview view both talk about the AI, it's the IinsideSimRacing one (@13:15) where he mentions dynamic auto adjusting AI..

 

[Bogie 19th]

Ok, thanks. I will check it out.

 

[Zer0]

Forza's handling has veered from the dry simulation of the second game to the more pliable cars of 3, but the one constant has been its forgiving nature. Within seconds it's clear that Forza has changed dramatically.

After the relative stability of Forza 3's cars, it's a shock to find these cars so alive and so wild.

Turn 10's John Knowles: "We don't want to go all arcade, but Forza has always been, to be frank, pretty sterile,"

Forza 4's improvements and flourishes give the cars a character that was previously lacking,

the result looks to be a better, smarter game that's less sterile and much more alive.

Funny how they admit now what never admitted before.

I hope this helps to realize the nature of FM3 as a simulator, specially after all the heated past discussions and constant denial of facts.

I'm glad that FM4 is following a more realistic route.

 

[Dan_]

Awesome. Thanks for the links. 👍

I'm glad to see Turn10 going for the simulation route, if that did work or not will only be judgeable when I finally play the game, though.

 

[PzR Slim]

Funny how they admit now what never admitted before.

I hope this helps to realize the nature of FM3 as a simulator, specially after all the heated past discussions and constant denial of facts.

I'm glad that FM4 is following a more realistic route.

Say wha? The only quote from a T10 employee was to say that the game in the past had been 'sterile' the rest is the opinion of Eurogamer. Hardly proves what you are getting at. Nice to see FM4 is getting under your skin though

 

[phil-t]

Funny how they admit now what never admitted before.

I hope this helps to realize the nature of FM3 as a simulator, specially after all the heated past discussions and constant denial of facts.

I'm glad that FM4 is following a more realistic route.

I don't think anyone has ever had the stance that FM3's physics in the visceral department didn't need improvement..

But beyond that, this doesn't change a thing..

All people defend FM3 for in the physics department is that it is actually a pretty deep and complex physics engine, much more sim then arcade.. People also acknowledge that it's grip levels are generally too high and other params mean it is a bit on the soft side in that respect.

This is what the reviewer means by 'Dry simulation'.. I think that's a good way of looking at it..

And don't let this line confuse you

Turn 10's John Knowles: "We don't want to go all arcade, but Forza has always been, to be frank, pretty sterile,"

Saying FM3 is a bit sterile in terms of a more visceral physics setup/visual setup is OK, again this is something people haven't ever denied..
The 'arcade' comment, as I'm sure you can see, is just saying they haven't gone too far OTT with the viscerality in FM4, or it might have been edging towards being Arcade when things are far too OTT.. It's not saying FM3 is arcade..

It's all welcome news, I can point out a million posts (slight exaggeration) where I praise for example GT5 for having a looser/more entertaining at a high level phsyics model, I only ever praise FM3 for it's low level physics complexity and tyre feedback etc, and a combination of the two would be a really good product.. Something FM4 sounds like it could be..

I have to say that watching the various video's of FM4, I don't see as much viscerality or even looseness to the cars as all the hands on reviews seem to indicate, I've only seen 1 instance of snap oversteer, and 1 instance of lateral grip depletion causing oversteer, but I will wait and see, I don't remember seeing much in other game's E3 outings either, even when they did turn out to be good in that respect.

 

[Zer0]

I mean "they the gaming press" and "they T10".

The first did know about the weak points and differences but never write a negative word in the reviews or with other games constant references/comparisons. The second were selling FM3 as the ultimate simulator, uber realism, etc... same points as reviewers praised and most players take word to defend it.

I find funny that they now use FM3 as an excuse of weak simulation to promote the new FM4. Just that. I guess we will see more sincere FM3 opinions as the end of FM4 development approaches.

 

[Luminis]

I find funny that they use now FM3 as an excuse of weak simulation to promote the new FM4.

Just because it was improved and is considered to be a little on the 'sterile' side of things, dooesn't mean it's actually bad.
I mean, the E92 M3 is better than the E46... That doesn't mean the E46 was a bad car when it was released, right?

 

[t.o.]

Damn near every game does this. I don't see the big deal here. I haven't seen a game yet say "You know what, we added a few maps/tracks this year and that's about it. Our game was perfect last time". I mean look at GT5P to GT5. Everyone and their mother said GT5P was "a perfect sim". Any action of any car was just perfect. Then GT5 comes out and they say "We rebuilt the physics engine from the ground up". If the game was perfect before why do you need to rebuild the physics engine? You shouldn't have to do anything but add some more cars, tracks and doo dads and you should be good.

Making statements like these do a few things. Gets guys who loved the game to cream for the new one. Get guys who liked it but thought some things to change to come running for the new one. Get guys who didn't like it to take notice that "things have changed" and give it a shot.

 

[Zer0]

Just because it was improved and is considered to be a little on the 'sterile' side of things, dooesn't mean it's actually bad.
I mean, the E92 M3 is better than the E46... That doesn't mean the E46 was a bad car when it was released, right?

In the context he spoke I understand by 'sterile' a more arcadish approach of the simulation and forgiveness. Eurogamer seems to understand the same after playing both games.

"We don't want to go all arcade, but Forza has always been, to be frank, pretty sterile,"

 

[Luminis]

In the context he spoke I understand by 'sterile' a more arcadish approach of the simulation and forgiveness. Eurogamer seems to understand the same after playing both games.

"We don't want to go all arcade, but Forza has always been, to be frank, pretty sterile,"

I actually think it means the opposite. The game's been sterile so far and they want to change that - without turning Forza into an arcade game.
Just look at most arcade games. They're flashy and a bit over the top, quite the opposite of what I would call "sterile".

 

[Nattefrost]

I understand Zer0's point to a certain extent. Eurogamer in particular went very easy on Forza 3's handling. It's decidedly more arcade as other simulators, and T10 were lauded for making their handling looser, more dynamic. They even had the cheek to say that's something not even PD or SimBin (seriously!) had achieved, and claimed they did it without compromising on simulation.

Now they come out and praise T10 for making the handling more raw, more hardcore (ie, more in the direction of PD and SimBin), so basically, for doing the opposite of what they praised them for in equal amounts in Forza 3. That's not exactly a critical approach by Eurogamer.

ISR's comments carry a lot more weight though, and they're very positive as well. So it definately looks good.

 

[Bogie 19th]

Funny how they admit now what never admitted before.

I hope this helps to realize the nature of FM3 as a simulator, specially after all the heated past discussions and constant denial of facts.

I'm glad that FM4 is following a more realistic route.

Now hopefully the same thing is addressed in the other game going forward as well.

 

[cuco33]

I mean "they the gaming press" and "they T10".

The first did know about the weak points and differences but never write a negative word in the reviews or with other games constant references/comparisons. The second were selling FM3 as the ultimate simulator, uber realism, etc... same points as reviewers praised and most players take word to defend it.

I find funny that they now use FM3 as an excuse of weak simulation to promote the new FM4. Just that. I guess we will see more sincere FM3 opinions as the end of FM4 development approaches.

T10 used the word definitive to describe their FM3 title. Forza fanboys weren't going crazy over the use of the word. It was the sony/gt fanboys who went ape**** over it, ironically they had no problem with PD calling their GT francise as the standard.
Its all marketing fluff and PR speak to build hype.
As a fan of both franchises, neither is definitive nor standard

And yet PC core sim guys stood back and laughed.

In regards to the article, it seems they've jumped on the bandwagon that FM3 was a little too.sticky and easy to control if you lost it. Seems that whatever they changed, the did it for the better and for the more sim experience. Maybe tires wont be as sticky or recovering from an incident isn't as easy.

 

[VXR]

I find driving cars to be fun. I certainly don't mind a handling model that emphasises fun without compromising the reality of the situation.

 

[mykem]

"And with all the fuss and focus on Kinect, it's another, more modest motion controller that steals the show. The newly announced Wireless Speed Wheel, ungainly as it may look, provides a surprisingly engaging ride, its long triggers providing accurate control of throttle and brake and its solid build making it neither too wearisome to hold or too light in the hand. For those without the room and inclination for a proper steering wheel, it's perfectly adequate."

'nuff said.

 

[Luminis]

^ You didn't expect a preview of Eurogamer to cater solely to the sim racing crowd, right?

 

[Zer0]

T10 used the word definitive to describe their FM3 title. Forza fanboys weren't going crazy over the use of the word. It was the sony/gt fanboys who went ape**** over it, ironically they had no problem with PD calling their GT francise as the standard.
Its all marketing fluff and PR speak to build hype.
As a fan of both franchises, neither is definitive nor standard

And yet PC core sim guys stood back and laughed.

Seems you don't know all the history:

Turn 10: Nothing on the Market is Within Years of Forza 3

Forza 3's Game Director, Dan Greenawalt, told x360a at a Forza 3 event in London this week that there's nothing on the market that comes close to simulating what Forza 3 does.

Greenawalt pined, "I play a lot of racing games, including PC racing games and I have not seen anything that is even within years of what we’re delivering here."

"Part of that actually meant visiting McLaren and seeing the simulator that they train on. I’ve seen other race teams as well and some of their simulators. We were kind of able to learn from each of them and incorporate a lot of that. So I think it would be hard for someone to match that," the outspoken Creative Director added.

Greenawalt later noted, "We have the best simulator around. You’re not going to find another one that’s even close, so if you turn off all the assists, you’re driving with a clutch, even on a controller, you’re driving. There’s tire flex, body flex and unsprung weight on the tires. You turn all the assists on, a 6 year old can play it."

http://www.xbox360achievements.org/...on-the-Market-is-Within-Years-of-Forza-3.html

ISR's comments carry a lot more weight though, and they're very positive as well. So it definately looks good.

They are not different from all the game media. Check their FM3 review:

Darin: Let's compare it to an iRacing or Netcar Pro or even an Arca Sim, all three of those have great physics, even rFactor, all of those have great physics. I'll tell you right now, put those through this weighted scale, this is going to score right with them.

Shaun: This drives like a real car.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=17987445&postcount=5682

Call it bias, blinded hype or paying sponsors but that is not professional journalism, just spreading disinformation like most sites did to hype even more the game. I hope that using quotes like "The King of Racers" or "The highest rated racing franchise of the generation" as the first words for the E3 FM4 presentation has nothing to do with that.
http://www.eurogamer.net/videos/forza-4-e3-2011-microsoft-presentation?size=large

 

[Luminis]

So, who do you trust to deliver a decent Forza preview and/or review?

 

[Zer0]

So, who do you trust to deliver a decent Forza preview and/or review?

I would trust an independent knowledgeable source, difficult I know, but at times you can found some good reviews in the forums.

I would love to read a FM4 review from Scaff for example.