Ever think about the cars' speeds being really unrealistic?

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rigdon

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This may just be me so someone please correct me if I'm wrong here.

I've always perceived the cars' speeds in GT3 as being very unrealistic. When you put them on the test track they just seem to go forever! For example: I fully tuned a Honda Civic Type R so it developed 320bhp and took it to the test track. At the end of the maximum speed trial the car recorded a speed of 288km/h or 179mph. Also the car was still going strong (I just ran out of road), so god knows what it would hit if the straight was much longer. In real life, if you tuned a Civic would it really hit these insane speeds with just 320bhp? Now I know, in the real world, 320hp is a nice bit of power but 180mph......?

I also performed the same test with the Mazda MX-5 where it was tuned to develop 370hp - which again is a lot of power. So, I took it to the test track and recorded a speed of 328km/h or 204mph...... I mean FFS this is Ferrari Enzo territory!

Is this very unrealistic or am I a total ass who doesn't have a clue what he's talking about?
 
rigdon
This may just be me so someone please correct me if I'm wrong here.

I've always perceived the cars' speeds in GT3 as being very unrealistic. When you put them on the test track they just seem to go forever! For example: I fully tuned a Honda Civic Type R so it developed 320bhp and took it to the test track. At the end of the maximum speed trial the car recorded a speed of 288km/h or 179mph. Also the car was still going strong (I just ran out of road), so god knows what it would hit if the straight was much longer. In real life, if you tuned a Civic would it really hit these insane speeds with just 320bhp? Now I know, in the real world, 320hp is a nice bit of power but 180mph......?

I also performed the same test with the Mazda MX-5 where it was tuned to develop 370hp - which again is a lot of power. So, I took it to the test track and recorded a speed of 328km/h or 204mph...... I mean FFS this is Ferrari Enzo territory!

Is this very unrealistic or am I a total ass who doesn't have a clue what he's talking about?
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I believe you've got a fair point there. 👍

I myself have never noticed it because I don't tune slaw-arse cars to see how fast they can go. :p

But that does seem quite a bit unrealistic. I've never heard of a car going that close to its horsepower rating in speed before.
 
rigdon
I also performed the same test with the Mazda MX-5 where it was tuned to develop 370hp - which again is a lot of power. So, I took it to the test track and recorded a speed of 328km/h or 204mph...... I mean FFS this is Ferrari Enzo territory!
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The Enzo has a lot more frontal area, and therefore more drag, than an MX-5 and so the Enzo will need more power to get the same speed.

On saying that, if I recall correctly, a standard GT3 CTR2 with 540bhp will just break 200mph. So there is something not right somewhere although again, it does have more frontal area than an MX5.
 
i have noticed those same things... looking at the civic type r, the accelration is un realistic too.. i dont have any stats right now couse im on my way to bed but i remember something. fully tuned type r accelration, in medium setups, accelrates as fast as same stock type r in real life. ok, it accelrates little bit faster.. unrealistic indeed...
 
I think most untuned cars seem slower than they would in real life. Like an Integra Type R feels much faster in real life than it does in the game. But i guess that's because i'm also driving Camaro Race Cars and so on.
 
Many of the cars are modeled fairly accurately. The Type Rs are very fast stock in real life... the OLD late 90's Acura Integra Type R was zero to 60 somewhere in the mid 5's... so yeah.

Top speed is odd... I don't think the game accounts correctly for drag.... but then again, consider that issues such as weight, power, and gearing, with otheres, contribute to top end speeds...
 
Azuremen
Many of the cars are modeled fairly accurately. The Type Rs are very fast stock in real life... the OLD late 90's Acura Integra Type R was zero to 60 somewhere in the mid 5's... so yeah.

Top speed is odd... I don't think the game accounts correctly for drag.... but then again, consider that issues such as weight, power, and gearing, with otheres, contribute to top end speeds...
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Acura ITR was 0-60mph in 5 seconds? Wow, not bad...

I don't think the game IS very realistic when it comes to drag - you can sit up right behind someone in the game and you wouldn't be able to do it THAT effectively in real life, to my mind.
 
Most, if not all, of the FF cars in the game don't hit their respective real-life 0-60 times. The CTR struggles to get an 8.xx clocking, which is quite a bit slower than it's real-life counterpart.

As for top speed; I've noticed the same thing. An absolutely bone-stock WRX STi will touch 170mph, which is fairly rediculous.
 
Yes the game is a little unrealistic when it comes to speed and drag and what not.

But dont forget a MX-5 when tuned for about 370BHP would probably have a better power to weight ratio then an Enzo too. And like Daan said. The Enzo has more drag (And more Downforce) than an MX-5.
 
I've just done another test and you're not going to believe this one!

I fully tuned a Cuore Avantazo from ~85hp to 182bhp and took it to the test track. The end result I hear you all screaming? 246km/h........which is 153mph.

This is pretty lame.

EDIT: That's a whisker slower than a BMW M3!
 
rigdon
I've just done another test and you're not going to believe this one!

I fully tuned a Cuore Avantazo from ~85hp to 182bhp and took it to the test track. The end result I hear you all screaming? 246km/h........which is 153mph.

This is pretty lame.

EDIT: That's a whisker slower than a BMW M3!
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Pretty lame indeed, but comparing it to the M3 is a bit unfair. The M3's electronically limited.
 
I don't get the problem here.

It's gearing, power, drag coefficient and frontal area only. Let's run the numbers through.

rigdon
I fully tuned a Cuore Avantazo from ~85hp to 182bhp and took it to the test track. The end result I hear you all screaming? 246km/h........which is 153mph.

This is pretty lame.

EDIT: That's a whisker slower than a BMW M3!
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Okay. That's 182hp on a car weighing 623kg (1373lb). The car is 1475mm wide, 1420mm high, with a ground clearance of 145mm - so that's a frontal area of 1475x1275mm - 1.88sq m or 20.24sq ft. "The Internet" says it has a drag coefficient of 0.31.

Plumbing the numbers in, at 153mph the car has a rolling resistance of about 17.85lb and an air resistance of roughly 376lb - for a total resistance of 394.86lb. In order to reach 153mph it would thus require 161.1hp at the wheels or about 185hp at the crank.

Therefore a Daihatsu Cuore, fully-tuned, would be able to reach 153mph in the real world too (I've rounded off a lot of numbers and I don't consider the difference between 185hp and 182hp to be all that great). Whether it would turn at all, or indeed take-off at that speed, is a totally different question, but at that power and that weight it COULD reach that speed.
 
Well, yes... :D

But in this case I know of a good website with formulas (oh, okay... formulae) on it :D

I'd run the MX-5 and Civic Type-R through too, but I'm just too damn lazy.
 
So what the speed is a little unrealistic it still won't stop me from playing GT3.
 
Touge Master
So what the speed is a little unrealistic it still won't stop me from playing GT3.
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No offence, but are you blind?

I've just proven that the speed - at least in the case of the Cuore - is NOT unrealistic.


Edit: In one of my trademark changes of heart, I've run the MX-5 and Civic through too. The Civic is a little fast for its power - there's not a lot in it, maybe 5mph - but then I don't believe that the Civic's Cd is actually 0.37. The MX-5 is... a little wrong. Then again, its Cd is 0.37 with the roof down - it may be lower with the roof up, and air resistance IS the killer to speed.


Generally speaking, maximum speed is proportional to the cube root of the power - basically if you want to increase the top speed by 10%, you'll need 10 times the power (or 1000% - the cube of 10%).
 
I just didn't read any other posts which I realized now is a big mistake. :dunce:
Glad to hear GT3 is more realistic than I thought.
 
As the owner of a ragtop, I will tell you that the drag coeffecient with the top down is MUCH worse than with the top up. I mean, like 5 mpg's worth of fuel economy worse. Even with the top up convertibles are at a disadvantage because the top flutters at high speed.

I was going to answer similar to Famine, but without the detail. I think the top speeds are reasonably accurate considering the inflated horsepower numbers.

However, what is not modelled realistically is the stability of street cars at very high speeds. PD definitely take liberties there. I've seen Bonneville speed record cars - built up street cars - get a little sideways and find themselves pulling a CLK Le Mans trick - at just below 200 mph.
 
i think the speeds are relistic, however when your doin 320kph at the end of midfield straight it doesnt feel like it, in nfsu however 320kph is insane. i would like GT4 to feel more faster,
 
Do you know how hard it would be to get used to it being that realistic, also you would only be doing 320kph for a short while for you would then have to wipe of alot of speed to be able to get around the corner.
Also i must say that i feel that when going fast in the car, its more when you notice something on the side of the road get closers and closer and to which you notice how fast you are going by how quick you pass it by when it get really close.

(off - topic)
In reality you wouldn't want to be going flat out to the end of a straight at 320kph, because you would end up with a slower time, for you have to then be hard on the brakes. But instead you would keep it at a decient speed which keeps a good smooth flow, resulting in a faster time.
 
Drifter_Dan
In reality you wouldn't want to be going flat out to the end of a straight at 320kph, because you would end up with a slower time, for you have to then be hard on the brakes. But instead you would keep it at a decient speed which keeps a good smooth flow, resulting in a faster time.
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what do you mean, in the R34 im hitting 320kph then im hard on the brakes and i hit the apex nicely. where as in a polyphony 001 i think youd hit about 330 - 340kph before you have to slow down.
 
umm... If you have a faster speed on straights, you will be faster if you can drive well, as all you need to understand is proper braking zones to scrub the speed. The issue in reality would more overly come down to the life span and heat capacity of the brake assembily..
 
Small_Fryz
what do you mean, in the R34 im hitting 320kph then im hard on the brakes and i hit the apex nicely. where as in a polyphony 001 i think youd hit about 330 - 340kph before you have to slow down.
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okay, this is just my opinion about it.

brakes, i think. in RL you cant be that hard on the brakes than in GT3. In GT they do not "worn" out and so they dont lose their braking abilities. Well, they do but not like in RL, in GT they heat up, lose some braking power and then cool down. no matter how hard you hit them, they allways cool down in a sertain "speed". So, in RL if you would do the same thing, heating up the brakes, you would hvae to start braking sooner and sooner al the time and you would come in with a slower speed.
Just me opinion about this, im not an expert yet so correct me if im wrong.

Famine
The Civic is a little fast for its power
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what d you mean? you mean that its little bit too fast than it would be for the amount of power? if thats so then i must say that your wrong.. why? ill explain it if that is what you mean.
 
How about I explain it to you?

In order for the Civic, as modelled in the game, to reach the speed rigdon quoted (179mph), it would need 340hp at the wheel, or about 390hp at the crank, to overcome the total resistance provided through friction ("rolling resistance" - a function of the vehicle's mass only) and the air ("air resistance" - a function of the car's frontal area and coefficient of drag, which increases proportionally to the square of the vehicle's speed). The Civic in the game has 320hp at the crank - or about 280hp at the wheel. Thus it does not have enough power to overcome the total resistance at that speed, so it "is a little fast for its power".

Would you like me to run you through the mathematics of this? I assure you I have worked it out correctly.
 
Famine
Would you like me to run you through the mathematics of this? I assure you I have worked it out correctly.
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You scare me sometimes Famine ;)
 
ah, okay, i had understood wrong... :indiff: but about the numbers, yeah, if its not too much work, i would like to see them. im pretty intrested in these things. :dopey:

btw, i said IF its what you mean. dont get mad... :guilty:
 
Stinky Chicken
Acura ITR was 0-60mph in 5 seconds? Wow, not bad...

I don't think the game IS very realistic when it comes to drag - you can sit up right behind someone in the game and you wouldn't be able to do it THAT effectively in real life, to my mind.
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Isn't that what Racing drivers aim to do, get up close because then you are traverling at the same speed as the car in front but using less power and therefore you have power to pull out and overtake.
 
SpeedZoner-T
ah, okay, i had understood wrong... :indiff: but about the numbers, yeah, if its not too much work, i would like to see them. im pretty intrested in these things. :dopey:

btw, i said IF its what you mean. dont get mad... :guilty:
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Okay. These are rough-ish numbers, gleaned from "The Internet" and GT3. I've dug around harder since last night, and the Civic Type-R's Cd seems to be 0.34, which will make the result slightly closer.

Width: 67.1in (1705mm)
Height: 54.1in (1375mm)
Ride Height: 5.3in (135mm)
F.Area: 1705x1240 = 2.11sqm (22.7sqft)
Cd: 0.34
Mass: 935kg (2061lb)
Power: 320hp
Claimed (GT3) Speed: 179mph

First we need to work out the rolling resistance of the car. That is a function of mass. Rolling resistance, in pounds equals the mass (in pounds obviously) multiplied by a fudge factor of 0.012-0.015. 0.013 is a good average, but since we're being generous, will go for the lowest number:

Rolling Resistance = 2061lb x 0.012 = 24.732lb

Next up is the air resistance. This is directly related to speed - it increases in line with the square of speed.

Air Resistance = Frontal Area (square feet) x Coefficient of Drag x 0.00256 x speed^2
For this car at the claimed speed it's: 22.7 x 0.34 x 0.00256 x (179x179) = 633.069lb

The total drag acting on the car at 179mph is the rolling resistance added to the
air resistance: 633.069lb+24.732lb = 657.8lb

In order to overcome this drag, the power required, at the wheels, is the total resistance multiplied by the speed divided by 375. In this case it's:

657.8lb X (179/375) = 314hp

That's about 361hp at the crank.

As you can see, this is more power than the Civic in GT3 develops, so given the power rating in GT3 it should not be able to reach 179mph. It's close - the numbers work for a fraction over 170mph - and thanks to a more accurate Cd figure it's closer than it was when I worked it out last night. But in GT3 it "is a little quick for its power".
 
wow, thats long ^^ thanks for those. now im little bit smarter :) hmm... i gotta say this is really interesting. i cant explain what makes it so interesting but it just is.

hmm, just noticed:
Famine
That's about 361hp at the crank.
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doesnt the Civic develope over 400hp in GT3?
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pah, forget it.
thanks for the details and for the explination :) ill have to look on these more :)
 
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