Experiencing Project CARS 2's Red Bull Ring via Controller

IanBell

Premium
716
One of our WMD members just posted this:

'I posted a rant here a year or so back about the gamepad steering in Project CARS 2, including how I mimicked a wheel with my Xbox One controller in Project CARS (1) to make the game playable on PC, which I suspect very nearly got me booted. While this may be taken with a bit of measure given that, I've just tried Project CARS 2 again for the first time since and I've honestly got to say BEST STEERING EVER. Driving on a gamepad in the current dev build with default/no assists is purely feel, allowing even this mediocre driver to brake steer throughout - unlike any current game competitors. Thank you, thank you, thank you. I may play the Acura/Dubai practice all night long...'

As I alluded to above, we're over mid way through setting steering ratios for all cars for pad users. For those completed, we feel the pad is as good as anything out there, crucially without 'over-filtering' the players input to make it work.
 
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339
United States
fla
rotorhead12A
Yes controler inputs in Pcars is overly sensitive. Once you find proper settings to your likeing, controler inputs can be toned down and steering inputs managed comfortabley. Race cars with slick tires easy to drive and pradictable. On the other hand road cars on street or semi slick tires are difficult to control. As mentioned by other members has nothing to do with controler but tire model. I'm hopeing this issue is addressed in Pcars2, due to the fact that i like driving the pordoction cars rather than racers.
 
5,008
North Korea
North Korea
One of our WMD members just posted this:

'I posted a rant here a year or so back about the gamepad steering in Project CARS 2, including how I mimicked a wheel with my Xbox One controller in Project CARS (1) to make the game playable on PC, which I suspect very nearly got me booted. While this may be taken with a bit of measure given that, I've just tried Project CARS 2 again for the first time since and I've honestly got to say BEST STEERING EVER. Driving on a gamepad in the current dev build with default/no assists is purely feel, allowing even this mediocre driver to brake steer throughout - unlike any current game competitors. Thank you, thank you, thank you. I may play the Acura/Dubai practice all night long...'

As I alluded to above, we're over mid way through setting steering ratios for all cars for pad users. For those completed, we feel the pad is as good as anything out there, crucially without 'over-filtering' the players input to make it work.

I hope this will encourage lot of doubters from the first game. I personally know several pad-playing sim fans who were looking forward to pCARS with great anticipation, but abandoned it completely within a few days because they simply could not get on with the controls, despite hours of fettling. I think it will still be an uphill task to win those players back, but decent default pad settings will definitely go a long, long way towards that.

I'll quote your post and link to it in my pCARS 2 thread on NeoGAF to help spread the word, but a dedicated marketing piece on the pad control improvements might not be a bad idea closer to release. Poor control still seems to be one of THE biggest recurring complaints from the first game.
 

IanBell

Premium
716
I hope this will encourage lot of doubters from the first game. I personally know several pad-playing sim fans who were looking forward to pCARS with great anticipation, but abandoned it completely within a few days because they simply could not get on with the controls, despite hours of fettling. I think it will still be an uphill task to win those players back, but decent default pad settings will definitely go a long, long way towards that.

I'll quote your post and link to it in my pCARS 2 thread on NeoGAF to help spread the word, but a dedicated marketing piece on the pad control improvements might not be a bad idea closer to release. Poor control still seems to be one of THE biggest recurring complaints from the first game.

Agreed and this is why we've focused so much on this area. Actually another poster has just responded to the WMD user above in the thread:

'I have to agree. I fired up a Ginetta Jnr championship in career mode with the XBone gamepad and the car very easily starts to slide, but more importantly is very easy to control both on long sweepers and tight chicanes. Strangely it almost seems easier when it rains.
The challenge for players now will be to get around the corners as fast as possible without losing speed by sliding. Very impressed. I now have to unlearn a few habits picked up long ago from GT Legends days that previously would send me backwards into the nearest wall so that I can improve lap times.'

So this is the feedback we're getting from our WMD members. This isn't 'hype', it's just user posted fact.
 
28
Poland
Poland
Agreed and this is why we've focused so much on this area. Actually another poster has just responded to the WMD user above in the thread:

'I have to agree. I fired up a Ginetta Jnr championship in career mode with the XBone gamepad and the car very easily starts to slide, but more importantly is very easy to control both on long sweepers and tight chicanes. Strangely it almost seems easier when it rains.
The challenge for players now will be to get around the corners as fast as possible without losing speed by sliding. Very impressed. I now have to unlearn a few habits picked up long ago from GT Legends days that previously would send me backwards into the nearest wall so that I can improve lap times.'

So this is the feedback we're getting from our WMD members. This isn't 'hype', it's just user posted fact.

Alright, now post example of a negative feedback.

I am not a pad user, but even I can tell just by watching videos that the problem still exists by comparing pCars2 and GT Sport. Atleast show us gameplays recorded using wheel in the future, not how a player struggles with the game.

GT Sport have problems with a wheel though.

The problem still exists, despite the fact you announced that it has been fixed.


Also there's still a problem with driving on a grass (too smooth, too much grip) and with some bigger curbs.
Here, the car was in a slide and rear wheel clipped a grass and he managed to rescue the car.

In pCars 1 the grass is too forgiving for GT3 cars, and too punishing for karts. In heavy rain the grass has way too much grip.

Here, he drives through big slowing curb and the car behaves like nothing happened:


I hope to see these problems fixed.
 
5,008
North Korea
North Korea
Agreed and this is why we've focused so much on this area. Actually another poster has just responded to the WMD user above in the thread:

'I have to agree. I fired up a Ginetta Jnr championship in career mode with the XBone gamepad and the car very easily starts to slide, but more importantly is very easy to control both on long sweepers and tight chicanes. Strangely it almost seems easier when it rains.
The challenge for players now will be to get around the corners as fast as possible without losing speed by sliding. Very impressed. I now have to unlearn a few habits picked up long ago from GT Legends days that previously would send me backwards into the nearest wall so that I can improve lap times.'

So this is the feedback we're getting from our WMD members. This isn't 'hype', it's just user posted fact.
Good stuff. A WMD2 insider just posted the following on NeoGAF too:

Hmmm...just tried some cars out with the pad and......indeed, I can actually control the cars.
That steering ratio problem from before seems to have been fixed, at least for the cars I tried.
Feels SO MUCH BETTER than any previous SMS game that's for sure. At the moment, I agree with Bell that it feels on par with other games without that 'over filtering' feel he mentioned.
Very encouraging indeed..
 

IanBell

Premium
716
Alright, now post example of a negative feedback.

I am not a pad user, but even I can tell just by watching videos that the problem still exists by comparing pCars2 and GT Sport. Atleast show us gameplays recorded using wheel in the future, not how a player struggles with the game.

GT Sport have problems with a wheel though.

The problem still exists, despite the fact you announced that it has been fixed.


Also there's still a problem with driving on a grass (too smooth, too much grip) and with some bigger curbs.
Here, the car was in a slide and rear wheel clipped a grass and he managed to rescue the car.

In pCars 1 the grass is too forgiving for GT3 cars, and too punishing for karts. In heavy rain the grass has way too much grip.

Here, he drives through big slowing curb and the car behaves like nothing happened:


I hope to see these problems fixed.

I think a fair person might see a VVV bias in your post :)
 
2,371
United States
The Chocolate Factory
ozwheels3
Alright, now post example of a negative feedback.

I am not a pad user, but even I can tell just by watching videos that the problem still exists by comparing pCars2 and GT Sport. Atleast show us gameplays recorded using wheel in the future, not how a player struggles with the game.

GT Sport have problems with a wheel though.

The problem still exists, despite the fact you announced that it has been fixed.


Also there's still a problem with driving on a grass (too smooth, too much grip) and with some bigger curbs.
Here, the car was in a slide and rear wheel clipped a grass and he managed to rescue the car

In pCars 1 the grass is too forgiving for GT3 cars, and too punishing for karts. In heavy rain the grass has way too much grip.

Here, he drives through big slowing curb and the car behaves like nothing happened:



I hope to see these problems fixed.
Against my better judgement, I'm going to kindly redirect your anger toward another VVV video. Here the same person praises the controller feel on rx cars that are further along in the development process. If you actually watch the whole video he will also talk about the video you have quoted several times.
 
28
Poland
Poland
Against my better judgement, I'm going to kindly redirect your anger toward another VVV video. Here the same person praises the controller feel on rx cars that are further along in the development process. If you actually watch the whole video he will also talk about the video you have quoted several times.

Criticizing != Anger. I am just crticizing how Ian cherrypicks best comments whereas the top rated comment below gt3@redbullring video is
"Same controller problems as the first".

A lot of reviews try to show products from the best possible side so I don't trust in everything what he says. However I have to admit that the rx cars behave very naturally, gravel and kerbs are punishing, pad users should be enjoying driving these cars.

On the other side, rx cars requires less precision than GT3 cars. I don't know how to satisfy wheel and pad players at the same time, but Gran Tourismo players will complain about controller, and people coming from all-simulation-value games will complain about grass and kerbs if the game was released in the current state.
 
2,371
United States
The Chocolate Factory
ozwheels3
Criticizing != Anger. I am just crticizing how Ian cherrypicks best comments whereas the top rated comment below gt3@redbullring video is
"Same controller problems as the first".

A lot of reviews try to show products from the best possible side so I don't trust in everything what he says. However I have to admit that the rx cars behave very naturally, gravel and kerbs are punishing, pad users should be enjoying driving these cars.

On the other side, rx cars requires less precision than GT3 cars. I don't know how to satisfy wheel and pad players at the same time, but Gran Tourismo players will complain about controller, and people coming from all-simulation-value games will complain about grass and kerbs if the game was released in the current state.
Again all the video proof you have from that video is from old builds. Also I understand you're lack of trust for developer hype. But if you can't trust the CEO of a company, who knows exactly what's what since he is developing the game, who is no way obligated to answer our questions and concerns here then I don't think you're going to find any satisfaction for your concerns unless you play the game once it's released.
 
38,559
Australia
The Bronx
The man comes on here o communicate progress on his game. Listens to and advises on changes made to the game. Tells gamers he uses a controller and that controller users(as well as wheel users) aren't left behind. Answers questions and implemented requests, literally, on the spot. Does this when the game is nearing release and still chooses to be out in the open and not hide when people have concerns. Why would a CEO put their rep at stake, when they know word of mouth could hurt sales(which is the ultimate goal in continuing to produce a passion)?

Can't please everyone...
 

Wolfe

Physics Critic
Premium
13,409
United States
Wisconsin
Wolfe2x7
Fact is, counter-steering will never be as "easy" or intuitive as with a wheel, because of the lack of force feedback, which is what really guides you when you are driving with a wheel. Without it catching a slide comes down muscle memory, which means tens or hundreds of hours of driving experience with each car, depending on how hard the one question is to drive.
The way I see it, the filters applied to joystick steering are the replacement for FFB guidance. Without the force of self-aligning torque, some countersteer assistance on a controller is more than reasonable to simulate the experience of real/FFB steering; it fills in something that would otherwise be lost in translation. If you ask me, it's not terribly difficult to follow SAT to catch a slide with a wheel anyway.

I'm hopeful PCARS2 will offer a more nuanced algorithm to determine the appropriate amount of countersteer for a slide, making it a non-issue like in competing racing titles without compromising the physics. It will also be nice if the quick-tap playstyle is as viable as WMD/SMS say it is, because the quick-tap method with smooth filtered steering is ideal for quick reactions that require immediate but careful input to avoid disaster, which makes it ideal for a good sim. :)
 
2,329
Belgium
Lokeren
breyzipp
As I alluded to above, we're over mid way through setting steering ratios for all cars for pad users. For those completed, we feel the pad is as good as anything out there, crucially without 'over-filtering' the players input to make it work.

Just curious about those steering ratios, are those fixed per car? Or are you guys doing the default setting and can we adjust them in the settings?

Not sure what I prefer to be honest, if you guys put in the effort to do them one by one for controllers (regardless of what they are for a wheel) then I'm sure the defaults will be fine for me.


Against my better judgement, I'm going to kindly redirect your anger toward another VVV video. Here the same person praises the controller feel on rx cars that are further along in the development process. If you actually watch the whole video he will also talk about the video you have quoted several times.

That video is one of the best PCARS 2 video's I've seen so far, here is why :
1) This guy is playing this car with this perticular handling with a controller for the first time at a media event. You can see him struggle a lot in the first couple of laps but the later laps he really got the hang of it, that must mean the feeling of the handling is quite right as each lap he can more and more predict what the car is doing.
2) If you see how he can slide through corners on those final laps that means catching a slide with a controller is indeed very much possible.
3) This one is minor but I really do like the physics of that car taking the jump, that Honda is a front engine car thus with weight towards the front of the car. That first jump he takes near the start/finish line where he is in cockpit view you can see that car tilt forward a bit (due to the front engine) during the jump.
 
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IanBell

Premium
716
Criticizing != Anger. I am just crticizing how Ian cherrypicks best comments whereas the top rated comment below gt3@redbullring video is
"Same controller problems as the first".

A lot of reviews try to show products from the best possible side so I don't trust in everything what he says. However I have to admit that the rx cars behave very naturally, gravel and kerbs are punishing, pad users should be enjoying driving these cars.

On the other side, rx cars requires less precision than GT3 cars. I don't know how to satisfy wheel and pad players at the same time, but Gran Tourismo players will complain about controller, and people coming from all-simulation-value games will complain about grass and kerbs if the game was released in the current state.

I stated clearly above that we're mid way through the pass to tune all cars. Not all cars are tuned. I'm cherry picking only to that extent :)
 

IanBell

Premium
716
The way I see it, the filters applied to joystick steering are the replacement for FFB guidance. Without the force of self-aligning torque, some countersteer assistance on a controller is more than reasonable to simulate the experience of real/FFB steering; it fills in something that would otherwise be lost in translation. If you ask me, it's not terribly difficult to follow SAT to catch a slide with a wheel anyway.

I'm hopeful PCARS2 will offer a more nuanced algorithm to determine the appropriate amount of countersteer for a slide, making it a non-issue like in competing racing titles without compromising the physics. It will also be nice if the quick-tap playstyle is as viable as WMD/SMS say it is, because the quick-tap method with smooth filtered steering is ideal for quick reactions that require immediate but careful input to avoid disaster, which makes it ideal for a good sim. :)

Actually countersteer is one of the few filters we apply (it might even be the only one at this stage if we ignore Speed sensitive steering)... I'll check that though. We open up more steering radius at the point of countersteer to allow you to catch the slides if the rear gets out. It feels pretty natural.
 
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2,810
Australia
Tasmania, AU
stigsdaddy
I am just crticizing how Ian cherrypicks best comments whereas the top rated comment below gt3@redbullring video is
"Same controller problems as the first"
.

Well, it was in the comments section of a Youtube video, so it must be legit. Who'd believe people involved in the development of the game, or the head of the studio itself, when you can get your info from random Youtube comments :lol:. Maybe if it was a decent sim racer posting that comment, I'd pay attention, but that guy has a handful of CoD videos on his channel, and nothing else.
 

weedybroz

(Banned)
33
Canada
Canada
Agreed and this is why we've focused so much on this area. Actually another poster has just responded to the WMD user above in the thread:

'I have to agree. I fired up a Ginetta Jnr championship in career mode with the XBone gamepad and the car very easily starts to slide, but more importantly is very easy to control both on long sweepers and tight chicanes. Strangely it almost seems easier when it rains.
The challenge for players now will be to get around the corners as fast as possible without losing speed by sliding. Very impressed. I now have to unlearn a few habits picked up long ago from GT Legends days that previously would send me backwards into the nearest wall so that I can improve lap times.'

So this is the feedback we're getting from our WMD members. This isn't 'hype', it's just user posted fact.
when i first tried your first game i thought wow ice driving lol. so i didnt play again until i came across some game play with folks using controllers . and they posted the controller settings . so i fired it up and used what they said and boom i could drive . now i love it . i can slide cars around corners on purpose and feels natural . im looking forward to new game . i also like the ac game and feel both drive close to the same
 

IanBell

Premium
716
How are the options for controller dead zones in P Cars 2?

In the original, I felt as if it were pure placebo.

Inside secret here... You are correct. A few months back we found a bug in the pad deadzone code that was always applying a 5% deadzone whether set or not. It was a legacy of early console mandated requirements that we'd hardcoded and forgotten about.

Thankfully we spotted it during the focused work on improving the pad controls and corrected it.

Deadzones now work as intended.
 

IanBell

Premium
716
Well, it was in the comments section of a Youtube video, so it must be legit. Who'd believe people involved in the development of the game, or the head of the studio itself, when you can get your info from random Youtube comments :lol:. Maybe if it was a decent sim racer posting that comment, I'd pay attention, but that guy has a handful of CoD videos on his channel, and nothing else.

Yes a random youtube comment gathered from watching a video doesn't trump a WMD user actively playing the game with the new pad code... The cars in question in said video didn't even have the steering ratio work done on them yet.

So I maintain, not cherry picking as such, just passing on the most informed opinions :)
 

Wolfe

Physics Critic
Premium
13,409
United States
Wisconsin
Wolfe2x7
Actually countersteer is one of the few filters we apply (it might even be the only one at this stage if we ignore Speed sensitive steering... I'll check that though. We open up more steering radius at the point of countersteer to allow you to catch the slides if the rear gets out. It feels pretty natural.
Have you got anything in place to help mitigate unwarranted overcorrection? I'm sure quirks of the old tire model contributed to the problem, but I think the most troublesome aspect of playing PCARS1 with a controller is the liability to snap-overcorrect if you attempt to recover a small slide or a kick of the rear end, because the game has a tendency to crank too much countersteer too quickly in such a situation.

So, in addition to granting more steering lock to allow you to catch a slide in time, is PCARS2 also able to dampen opposite lock to avoid giving the player more than they asked for? I imagine the way it's done in other games is similar to the Speed Sensitivity filter, but limiting countersteer based on your oversteer angle or the slip angle of the front wheels.
 

IanBell

Premium
716
Have you got anything in place to help mitigate unwarranted overcorrection? I'm sure quirks of the old tire model contributed to the problem, but I think the most troublesome aspect of playing PCARS1 with a controller is the liability to snap-overcorrect if you attempt to recover a small slide or a kick of the rear end, because the game has a tendency to crank too much countersteer too quickly in such a situation.

So, in addition to granting more steering lock to allow you to catch a slide in time, is PCARS2 also able to dampen opposite lock to avoid giving the player more than they asked for? I imagine the way it's done in other games is similar to the Speed Sensitivity filter, but limiting countersteer based on your oversteer angle or the slip angle of the front wheels.

Yes, that filter puts you in the 'required' ballpark. But your main point is spot on. We've nailed the tyre modelling such that that snap oversteer and resulting overcorrect tank slapper behaviour is gone, well, gone when it shouldn't be there :)
 
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Wolfe

Physics Critic
Premium
13,409
United States
Wisconsin
Wolfe2x7
Yes, that filter puts you in the 'required' ballpark. But your main point is spot on. We've nailed the tyre modelling such that that snap oversteer and resulting overcorrect tank slapper behaviour is gone, well, gone when it shouldn't be there :)
Great! To say it puts you in the ballpark sounds like the right approach. 👍
 
5,008
North Korea
North Korea
Inside secret here... You are correct. A few months back we found a bug in the pad deadzone code that was always applying a 5% deadzone whether set or not. It was a legacy of early console mandated requirements that we'd hardcoded and forgotten about.

Thankfully we spotted it during the focused work on improving the pad controls and corrected it.

Deadzones now work as intended.
So this bug fix could theoretically be patched into pCARS?

You might get a lot of sceptics back on board if this vastly improves the joypad experience, especially with the game being so cheap now. Those same players could also roll into pCARS 2 quite naturally in six months time.

Win-win?
 
251
Hungary
Hungary
So this bug fix could theoretically be patched into pCARS?

You might get a lot of sceptics back on board if this vastly improves the joypad experience, especially with the game being so cheap now. Those same players could also roll into pCARS 2 quite naturally in six months time.

Win-win?

I'm skeptical this one change would be enough to suddenly make pCARS 1 so much better to drive with a gamepad. I use a Steam Controller with which it is possible to completely dial out any deadzone applied by the game. It was no silver bullet, trust me. Using the gyro to steer was however. :)
 

IanBell

Premium
716
So this bug fix could theoretically be patched into pCARS?

You might get a lot of sceptics back on board if this vastly improves the joypad experience, especially with the game being so cheap now. Those same players could also roll into pCARS 2 quite naturally in six months time.

Win-win?

No, about half of the code is different. We could make it worse with no time available to fix that.
 
153
I've played a bit with the pad after reading positive feedback from others - it is indeed very far improved, at least from an average sim racer perspective using cockpit view. I can't think of any 'hardcore' PC sim that comes close. Super easy to pick up and play and slide around and catch mistakes with all driver aids off if you like chucking the car into corners or if you have a lead foot (finger) - being fast and consistent is where player skill comes into it (so easy to learn, hard to master). I haven't tried too many cars yet though.

Hope this helps