Facelifted Porsche 911 Turbo

[Radracing]

Changing the way the new Porsche looks is more for marketing purposes to get people who own Porsches to buy new ones besides improving performance. Staying with the traditional shape and function evokes, Classic and timeless nature to the car for the hardcore Porsche fans who want to stick with the tradition of the design.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Que?

 

[dancardesigner]

Porsche has basically perfected a flawed design, the only reason they stay with the same concept is for the sake of nostalgia and to be different. It's a bloody brilliant car, but porsche could be in the realms of ferrari and lambo territory if they stopped being so stubborn, the carrera gt has proved this.
Kill the damn thing and move on, then ressurect it when your willing to accept some serious changes to the model.

 

[YSSMAN]

LOL, WUT?

Why would Porsche forsake their most-noteable design, which has otherwise been the yardstick by which all cars in its class are measured, "because the Carrera GT worked." That is idiocy. Porsche has little to no reason to ditch the rear engine, rear drive concept that they've been tinkering with essentially since the 1930's. It has never been about nostalgia or habit, its just what Porsche does. If you want a mid-engine Porsche, they offer it. The Cayman S is otherwise an excellent car, but of course, they won't do a Turbo version of it.

Frankly, I've never understood the Porsche hate. They do what they do, at an otherwise fair price, and deliver almost every time. I can't fault their success.

 

[sumbrownkid]

For some odd reason, I don't want Porsche to be in the realms of Ferrari and Lamborghini as dancardesigner said. If they were, then Porsche just becomes another exotic that can't be used everyday. What makes Porsche stand out for me is that it is a car that can run with a Ferrari or Lambo, but still be friendly to drive to work.

One of my friend's neighbor is a doctor, and drives a GT2 to work, while the Ferrari stays in the garage until the weekend.

 

[Philly]

I think this face lift worked a lot better on the other cars. The rear lights do look awesome on the Carreras I think. They look nice, simple elegant and modern. It seems to disrupt or change the rear end styling of the Turbo too much IMO. For me, the Turbos are a feeling thing, and that's hard to express.

Frankly, I've never understood the Porsche hate. They do what they do, at an otherwise fair price, and deliver almost every time. I can't fault their success.

Exactly. I'd say they are the BMW of the sports car world. Their cars are so good that everyone tries to be like them. I guess every company has to have some kind of haters, but I think it's hard to build an argument that their cars aren't any good. It's like the GT-R, you can not like it, but it's impossible to deny that they build good cars.

For some odd reason, I don't want Porsche to be in the realms of Ferrari and Lamborghini as dancardesigner said. If they were, then Porsche just becomes another exotic that can't be used everyday. What makes Porsche stand out for me is that it is a car that can run with a Ferrari or Lambo, but still be friendly to drive to work.

Wrong. Lamborghinis and Ferraris are coming to the realm of the Porsches. Sure, those cars still have the image and speed and all, but they're becoming cars that you can drive around in the city as well. Although I think a Porsche will remain as a top sportscar and avoid becoming an exotic.

 

[sumbrownkid]

Wrong. Lamborghinis and Ferraris are coming to the realm of the Porsches. Sure, those cars still have the image and speed and all, but they're becoming cars that you can drive around in the city as well. Although I think a Porsche will remain as a top sportscar and avoid becoming an exotic.[/QUOTE]

I think Ferrari and Lambo are still considered too "exotic" in a sense to be used everyday. Unless the the person is loaded with cash to do so.

 

[Stotty]

Some further comments...

There's more to a 911 than outright speed. First and foremost, the 911 offers a unique driving experience. I've owned a lot of cars over the years and driven many more (including some pretty exotic stuff) and nothing feels like a 911 to drive... the rear engine layout gives a totally different sensation to front or mid engined cars, and when coupled with almost perfect control weighting, there's just nothing like it.

911's aren't really competitors for Ferrari or Lambo... a 997 C2S is half the price of a 430 or a Gallardo... even a GT2 undercuts both of these by c.£20K.

Ferrari and Lambo's might be getting more usable, but they aren't really everyday cars in the way a 911 is. Drive them any serious miles and they cost a huge amount to run... servicing is scarey expensive, clutches last <10k miles on the automated manual versions and depreciation on even sensible mileage cars is horrendous.

It's easy to say a GTR is faster and cheaper than a 997 Turbo, but that completely misses the point. When you're young, things like that seem important, but as you get older and you have the wealth and life style to consider spending £100k on a car your priorites are different. Fractionally better Nurburgring lap times and 0-60 times matter far less than what your car says about you within your family/friends/peer group... a 997 Turbo ticks those boxes whilst still being super fast... a GTR doesn't.

 

[killanite]

It's easy to say a GTR is faster and cheaper than a 997 Turbo, but that completely misses the point. When you're young, things like that seem important, but as you get older and you have the wealth and life style to consider spending £100k on a car your priorites are different. Fractionally better Nurburgring lap times and 0-60 times matter far less than what your car says about you within your family/friends/peer group... a 997 Turbo ticks those boxes whilst still being super fast... a GTR doesn't.

Actually I'd much more appreciate someone having a GTR for their lifestyle knowing theyre not a badge snob who paid double the price for a badge essentially. the whole point of the 911 turbo is performance, (otherwise you'd get a carrera or whatever if performance isn't your fancy) and when you say that the performance doesnt matter then I say you're just being a badge snob to the GTR which is an engineering masterpiece of it's price and you're not giving it the respect it deserves.

If someone bought a 911 turbo and told me they didn't buy it for performance but for what it says about their life then I'd think theyre not buying it for the right reason. Porsche didn't spend 40 years perfecting its cultural status , they spent 40 years making it better as an everyday user-friendly benchmark performance car, something that the GT-R matches.

I agree'd with everything you said in that post by the way, up until you mentioned the life style thing.

 

[Stotty]

You're taking my comments too litterally...

It's not that the performance doesn't matter, but even if the GTR does perform better it's by such a small margin under most conditions that it becomes an irrelevent consideration for most people... especially as the vast majority of poeple don't have the ability to drive either car any where near their full potential... and to do so on the public roads would be madness anyway.

The badge is important... it's like buying a house... location is everything.

Porsche spent 40 years building and establishing it's brand image through their road cars and their race cars... the fact that they have built a very successful brand means they can charge double what Nissan charges for the GTR. If the list price of a GTR was £110k (around 997 Turbo money), Nissan wouldn't sell many.

EDIT: Just to make clear... I'm not knocking the GTR (it's clearly a very, very good car), but when people say stupid things along the lines of 'Porsche fail again to beat the GTR' they just don't understand the purchase decision tree of consumers with a level of disposable income that allows them to consider spending £100k on a car.

 

[///M-Spec]

Wait, wasn't the engine used in the 996 Turbo entirely new? Or was it just the NA Porsche engines that were?

No, the 996 Turbo engine is based on the M64 line. I'm fairly certain of that. The 996 Carreras (the NA cars) got the "all new" engine derived from Boxster architecture.

95% sure the 997 Gen 1 is M64 derived as well.

Jury is still out on the new car. I was just over at Rennlist and couldn't find anything concrete. Porsche says the engine is "entirely new for the Turbo". Which might just be marketingese for "same basic semi-dry sump engine as the Carrera -- but it's NEW FOR THE TURBO".

Maybe they'll surprise us and change the bottom end with a dry design. Then filter the update down to the rest of the 911 line.

But buy a 911 and you're pretty much set for life - in 20 years time they'll still be churning out identical ones.

Not entirely so.

Porsche likes to keep the basics the same, but tweak the cars regularly. Over 20 years, it adds up to a HUGE difference. A 997 is a completely different car than a 20 year old 964. Hell, a 997 is significantly different from a 10 year old 996.

The pace of change is also accelerating. I think the 998 will be another big jump as well.

If someone bought a 911 turbo and told me they didn't buy it for performance but for what it says about their life then I'd think theyre not buying it for the right reason.

Agree and disagree.

I think people who buy cars just to impress other people have mixed up priorities.

But at the same time, I also think people who believe the best performing car MUST also be the best car are a little mixed up as well. In that regard I agree with Stotty; a great car like the 911 is about the driving experience. The performance is great, but it's about the quality of the drive that is more important and this is something numbers can not capture. This is why the 911 remains a great car.

Honestly, I think people who are fixated on numbers are just as mixed up as a badge snob. After all, wanting say you have the fastest car is simply another form of snobbery. It is elitism against slower cars and is rooted in the same insecurity. What's the difference between trying to impress people with a badge and trying to impress people with a track time? None, as far as I can see.


M

 

[Stotty]

No, the 996 Turbo engine is based on the M64 line. I'm fairly certain of that. The 996 Carreras (the NA cars) got the "all new" engine derived from Boxster architecture.

95% sure the 997 Gen 1 is M64 derived as well.

Jury is still out on the new car. I was just over at Rennlist and couldn't find anything concrete. Porsche says the engine is "entirely new for the Turbo". Which might just be marketingese for "same basic semi-dry sump engine as the Carrera -- but it's NEW FOR THE TURBO".

Maybe they'll surprise us and change the bottom end with a dry design. Then filter the update down to the rest of the 911 line.

M

Perhaps they are using GT3 engine as the base... which is dry sumped.

 

[McLaren]

For some odd reason, I don't want Porsche to be in the realms of Ferrari and Lamborghini as dancardesigner said. If they were, then Porsche just becomes another exotic that can't be used everyday. What makes Porsche stand out for me is that it is a car that can run with a Ferrari or Lambo, but still be friendly to drive to work.

One of my friend's neighbor is a doctor, and drives a GT2 to work, while the Ferrari stays in the garage until the weekend.

I don't know where you've been getting such notions, but just about every Lamborghini & Ferrari built within the last 5 years have made good daily drivers.

 

[killanite]

By "performance" I was referring more to the feel of driving a 911 rather than the numbers.

If you buy a 911 turbo cause you love the way it feels to drive and because it's balanced like no other car, and that with that it's also such a great daily driver as well as having the ability to be absolutly psychotic, that I can respect in a 911 turbo owner.

But buying it for it's badge and it's public image is what i believe the wrong reason to buy a 911 turbo.

Porsche shouldn't rely on their badge or their public image to be able to sell their cars, their cars should sell because they are good cars (which they are) but some people ignore that fact and think that they need to own a Porsche just because it symbolizes their success in life and really don't care or appreciate the hardwork that has been done to accomplish the car's perfection.

 

[Stotty]

My wife doesn't think our 911 is nice to drive ('the clutch is heavy', 'the ride is hard', 'it's noisy'), she's never used more than half throttle, she's never been above 4,000rpm, and she drives it slower than our diesel Mondeo... but she absolutely loves driving it.

 

[McLaren]

Porsche shouldn't rely on their badge or their public image to be able to sell their cars, their cars should sell because they are good cars (which they are) but some people ignore that fact and think that they need to own a Porsche just because it symbolizes their success in life and really don't care or appreciate the hardwork that has been done to accomplish the car's perfection.

Unfortunately, that same story is shared amongst most major high-model manufacturers.

 

[Tornado]

I don't know where you've been getting such notions, but just about every Lamborghini & Ferrari built within the last 5 years have made good daily drivers.

Even the ones that are 7 feet wide and need an instruction manual just to put it into reverse? I know that Ferrari and Lamborghini are fast becoming more competent in the field (particularly Ferrari with the California), but other than the Gallardo, the 599 and that 2+2 that Ferrari makes that no one ever cared about, I'd hardly say they would be good daily drivers so much as passable ones. Not when compared to the "too rich of a dentist to own a Corvette" Porsche 997.

 

[sumbrownkid]

@Mclaren

Where I live, people use a Porsche as a daily driver, while the Lambo or Ferrari stays still till the weekend.

But you're right about Ferrari and Lambo being more friendly to use everyday over the past five years. But Porsche still has that department nailed.

 

[///M-Spec]

Perhaps they are using GT3 engine as the base... which is dry sumped.

If they did, then they would stay with the M64 architecture, since that's what the GT3 has

By "performance" I was referring more to the feel of driving a 911 rather than the numbers.

If you buy a 911 turbo cause you love the way it feels to drive and because it's balanced like no other car, and that with that it's also such a great daily driver as well as having the ability to be absolutly psychotic, that I can respect in a 911 turbo owner.

Actually, the 911 has terrible balance Acquiring the necessary skill to go fast in a 911 is what keeps people coming back to it all these years.

But buying it for it's badge and it's public image is what i believe the wrong reason to buy a 911 turbo.

Porsche shouldn't rely on their badge or their public image to be able to sell their cars, their cars should sell because they are good cars (which they are) but some people ignore that fact and think that they need to own a Porsche just because it symbolizes their success in life and really don't care or appreciate the hardwork that has been done to accomplish the car's perfection.

This sort of attitude is hardly confined to people who buy Porsches.

In fact, the GT-R and other blue chip Japanese sports cars (NSX, Supra, etc.) has just as much potential for badge-snob appeal. It just happens with a different crowd. You will impress just as many people by driving to a local Import Meet night with a GT-R as you can driving to the country club in a 911 Turbo.

And if you think that the kids down at Import Meet Night has anymore objectivity than the old farts at the country club, I'd say you'd be mistaken.


M

 

[sumbrownkid]

^I agree with M-Spec, because the golf club I live next to is filled with Porsches, or some high end Euro car. There was only one GTR I saw there, and it didn't fit in. But hopefully it'll fit in my garage.

 

[Omnis]

Nothing gets the country club riled up more than a Jag, however.

 

[Stotty]

If they did, then they would stay with the M64 architecture, since that's what the GT3 has

M

The new gen2 GT3 still uses the M64?

Oh, and plenty of Porsche's & Aston's in my golf club car park... and a few Jags too... even a LP640 Murcialego

 

[Philly]

Porsche shouldn't rely on their badge or their public image to be able to sell their cars, their cars should sell because they are good cars (which they are) but some people ignore that fact and think that they need to own a Porsche just because it symbolizes their success in life and really don't care or appreciate the hardwork that has been done to accomplish the car's perfection.

The fact of the matter is that badges do sell cars. And they sell cars very well. Examples?

Them and their hybrid badge. You've also got the rest of the Toyotas, Hondas, Ford, Dodge, Chevy, Volkswagen, BMW, ... the list goes on. Sure, they make great cars, but those little plastic things glued on to the front end carry a lot of weight when it comes to buying a car.

Oh yeah, and the GT-R. I think that car does a better job at representing the video game, Gran Turismo street racer generation than any other. The problem there is that it appeals to 16 year olds, who are in no position to buy a $70,000 car. Porsches appeal to older, rich guys who do have the money to put down $140,000 on a new car. And I bet that the GT-R would be pretty unheard of if it was a Hyundai. Even though it could very well be one of the fastest cars on the road,

 

[McLaren]

Even the ones that are 7 feet wide and need an instruction manual just to put it into reverse? I know that Ferrari and Lamborghini are fast becoming more competent in the field (particularly Ferrari with the California), but other than the Gallardo, the 599 and that 2+2 that Ferrari makes that no one ever cared about, I'd hardly say they would be good daily drivers so much as passable ones. Not when compared to the "too rich of a dentist to own a Corvette" Porsche 997.

The only issue with the Murcielago is getting past the engine cover & low ground clearance. The F430, on the other hand, is just good as a 911 Turbo.

The only models I wouldn't find passable are the SV, Superleggera, & Scuderia, but then again, their purpose is anything but to be a daily driver.

 

[Tornado]

The only issue with the Murcielago is getting past the engine cover & low ground clearance.

7 feet wide, zero rear visibility, handles like a truck at low speeds, ride quality varies from "liveable" to "genuinely hurts." The Murcielago is better than any previous V12 Lambo, but then again it also was lauded as amazing when it came out just because the pedals weren't millimeters from the edge of the footwell. Suffice to say, Lamborghini still has a long way to go in the "ability to actually be driven" department for their own cars (yes, I am excising the Gallardo from that category once again).

Though I admit that I was thinking "Scuderia" when I was thinking about the F430 and applied that car to the whole range. Notably, the "particularly Ferrari" note from my previous post has even more weight than before.

 

[McLaren]

7 feet wide, zero rear visibility, handles like a truck at low speeds, ride quality varies from "liveable" to "genuinely hurts." The Murcielago is better than any previous V12 Lambo, but then again it also was lauded as amazing when it came out just because the pedals weren't millimeters from the edge of the footwell. Suffice to say, Lamborghini still has a long way to go in the "ability to actually be driven" department for their own cars (yes, I am excising the Gallardo from that category once again).

While you're right that it can be harsh, there are still a few owners who do drive theirs religiously & love the car. They of course, don't make up for everyone else or are immune to the facts, but they have shown it can be daily driven if you can just get by some of its quirps.

Of course, many of these owners also believe these cars are meant to be driven, 1 of which, will even drive his 6.0 VT over 1,000 miles just to take it shows in California.

 

[YSSMAN]

By "performance" I was referring more to the feel of driving a 911 rather than the numbers.

Just as a question, have you driven a 911? In any generation, any trim?

Having driven one (Carrera 3.2 Convertible), its an absolutely brilliant car, and I fully understand the appeal. But I didn't feel that special behind the wheel. Was I supposed to because I was in a 911? Sure, a 911 ends up being a status car for some people, but having the Coxster around these days, more of the wheels stick with that than the older siblings.

 

[SR-71_Blackbird]

Actually, the 911 has terrible balance Acquiring the necessary skill to go fast in a 911 is what keeps people coming back to it all these years.

Quite true. If you ever see someone pushing a 911 to the edge and compare it to a 50/50 car such as a BMW you will notice the porsche will be dipping the rear and lifting the nose, going into understeer or gripping like hell. If it understeers and you let off the gas BAM... instant weight transfer forward and now you're sideways. You floor it and get ready to countersteer and BAM... weight transfers back and bakes the rear grip or go more sideways.
911s have to be the hardest fast cars to drive fast compared to the nintendo GTR.

 

[The Vanishing Boy]

-> ...

The turbo used to be the hardcore model, but not any more... The Turbo is now more super fast GT than track day missile. If you want a harcore track day Porsche you buy a GT2, GT3 or GT3RS, depending on how much money you have and how scared you want to be.

^ I don't know but...I've always considered the GT2 as The Real Porsche Turbo. If talking about tradition, up until the 993; the Turbo was a frightning RWD, rear-engined monster just like the GT2 today.

-> The GT2 I used to know is a street-legal 911 [993] GT3 RSR:

^ And this is its non-street legal version the 911 [993] GT3 RSR, and that to me is a GT3:

-> But all of these are history; only my personal judgment.

BT-> For the untrained eye, yes it looks the same. But the tailights seems to be "soft" in my book, so "Carrera" instead of a "MEAN! IMA TURBO! ARGH!" kinda thing.

 

[Blackbird.]

The slightly changed front fascia does not look as good. :\