Fanatec CSW/CSR Elite Modders Thread *UPDATE February 2014*

  • Thread starter eKretz
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K_Soze
I was thinking about a peltier in order to blow very cold air but my conclusion it will be very complex and expensive :)
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Not really, a small radiator with the Peltier mounted and plug the radiator in to the air lines that are already in place like an air to air intercooler wouldn't be bad at all. Might even be able to use the old stock power supply to run the Peltier.
 
I want to add to my earlier post about still having things to try - I feel like there's a ways to go before I'm happy with this mod - so I'd prefer if you all would be patient and give me the time to get it done right. Exploring a lot of options and still looking for a motor that gives the performance I want with the reliability that we all want - but it has to be the right wind to work with the power we are safe running through the board without massive mods and still keep it's cool with extended running. I'm getting closer for sure, but I'd prefer to only sell modded parts right now to guys who would otherwise be without their wheels, because right now this is all still prototype stuff and nothing is set in stone. I know there is a lot of interest and everybody's impatient, especially now that you can only get replacement motors from Fanatec by sending your entire wheelbase in, but just give it a little more time, I think I've almost got something really awesome.
 
well its looking good so far eKretz, cant wait to see your end result :)

i have just gone ahead and bought 2 buhlers the same as yours, all i need now is a power supply to run them on and then work on how im going to cool them. and do you think the drive MOFSETs will be fine or do you think they will need better cooling aswel?
 
The MOSFETs won't be damaged as-is but they do get mighty warm. I ran mine stock for quite a long time but I recently paralleled the drive MOSFETs on my spare PCB just to see if keeping them a little cooler will help at all with fading. Haven't tried it out yet though as I've been busy working on parts for a couple guys and testing the air cooling setup. I've also figured out a way to get a little bigger fan in on the side of the wheel opposite the motors, which might help some too.

I really wish I could get into the firmware a bit but I'm not real up on that stuff. I wasn't really posting a lot during the time I experimented with the following so I forgot to put this info up - a conversation with mrbasher the other day reminded me to put it up here when he mentioned using it as a possible approach to help keep things cooler. Anyways, here you go: I did some playing around with Racer XX's info regarding the temp sensor quite some time ago - which is a thermistor - and discovered that the controller limits the pulse width to the motors to 88% (normally it allows 100% pulse width) when the motors reach about 140°F. This would have been awesome if it was an infinite range - but instead it's just that one cut. You either have 100% pulse width, 88% pulse width, or 0. If the motors should reach 150°-160°F, the controller cuts all power to the motors until they cool. So anyway it could be beneficial to use that with the Bühler motors to enhance reliability and almost eliminate heat fade with the stock cooling but they won't be nearly as strong. They might well run with a stock power supply though.
 
Hello guys, i'm desperately searching for the CSW rim (BMW) fast-release pinout. I had to change some of those pins and some cables got disconnected, as you know already there's the 13 pins circular connector, while only 8 of them are connected to the internal flat cable. Anyone with a schematic?
 
I have to admit that I am a little surprised that nobody could find a source for the original electric motor Fanatec is using in their CSR/CSW wheel. I know it is not easy, I tried hard and did not succeeded.
But surely, that motor has not been exclusively developed for Fanatec exclusive use.
Although getting a better ( Buhler) motor is very attractive, having access to the stock item, especially for those of us who have an extra ( broken) set, would make swapping a breeze, and an inexpensive breeze since they are supposed to be so cheap to buy.
 
I had motors made that are direct replacements, only slightly more powerful/larger... However, the minimum order is something like 4 or 5 thousand! They are $2.20 each, plus whatever shipping on 5000 motors from China would be.

I have 5 of them and they cost me $110, $10 each plus $60 shipping. I also have some even more powerful ones that they messed up on which I basically ended up with for free.

I guess the reason why I'm posting this is to say, they can be had but finding them "in the wild" would be very hit or miss, mostly miss. The main reason is that most motors out there are wound for speed, at least the ones I see. None of them seem to be a match.

The most likely place to find what could be a direct replacement would be an inkjet printer. Several HP's that I have torn apart have the motor, right down to the last number.
 
Yup, I have found one or two in printers I tore down also - but I didn't remember to check the printer model number. The main problem with switching to a stronger motor is the heat, since the PW can't be modded more than to 88% other than in the firmware - although the FF setting also changes the max pulse width - that is supposed to be clipping the signal. I haven't actually tested that though - I need to.

The heat from (2) 24V motors at stall that pull around 2A each is only 48W each - 96W. The Buhlers with no pulse width or current limiting are pulling nearly 240W! So there's considerably more heat produced. The best solution may be to switch to a much higher rated motor and limit pulse width to drop the current at stall to within the motor's rating. The Buhlers are rated at 20W each continuous IIRC. So if we could get a motor rated for continuous duty of say 60-80W it would probably stay nearly cool enough without a bunch of extra cooling parts, since the motors don't spend all their time at stall. The problem is threefold - these motors are very costly, they are very long/large, and as of yet I don't have a method I like for limiting current.
 
The ones I found were in printers that looked like this:

hp-deskjet-810c.gif

Pretty old now...

I agree on limiting the current. One possible option might be to build a small circuit using mosfets which sit between the mosfets in the wheel and the motors. These could then be switched on and off via constant but adjustable PWM. The circuit could even easily be made to only "chop" when the current reaches a specified limit. Have to do some thinking on that one...

I very much like the idea of changing the firmware to suit the need, I just haven't had time to dig into it and rest assured, it would take some digging!
 
Yeah I think the motors may will be obsolete by now? I have done some thinking on this PWM also. Cutting the current once it reaches a certain threshold is no good because you'd have clipping on the top end for sure. A constant PWM limit would probably be best in my thinking, but I have a feeling that low level stuff would be lost, so in effect you'd have clipping at the other end of the spectrum. It's definitely tricky without legit access to the firmware. I think it will take some real experimentation and the final result will probably be best found by constantly tweaking, then checking linearity, tweaking again, checking linearity again, etc.
 
eKretz
What exactly are you looking for? I've never found an actual datasheet for the motor but I have made a few measurements.
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I would compare with some motors RC brushed. Here in Brazil is very difficult to get quality electric motors. But it has many options for RC motors. What type of motor could use? RPM, Amper, etc.. etc.. would be approximately...

Thx my friend...
 
Sure. Those specs are listed in the first post on the first page of this thread though. Anyways:

The stock motor OD is 1.402" or 35.6mm (although they have a flux ring on the motor that is 1.492" or 37.9mm). With the OE motors running at 25.6V I was able to stall the motor just by gripping the motor pulley between my bare thumb and finger and gradually increasing pressure. The motors ran at no load at ~4300RPM at about .06 amps, and stalled were pulling 3.0 amps.
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So, at 24VDC nominal voltage you need a motor that spins no-load at about 4,000 RPM with a stall current of ~2.8A. Motor shaft diameter is .125" - or 3.175mm.
 
eKretz
The MOSFETs won't be damaged as-is but they do get mighty warm. I ran mine stock for quite a long time but I recently paralleled the drive MOSFETs on my spare PCB just to see if keeping them a little cooler will help at all with fading. Haven't tried it out yet though as I've been busy working on parts for a couple guys and testing the air cooling setup. I've also figured out a way to get a little bigger fan in on the side of the wheel opposite the motors, which might help some too.

I really wish I could get into the firmware a bit but I'm not real up on that stuff. I wasn't really posting a lot during the time I experimented with the following so I forgot to put this info up - a conversation with mrbasher the other day reminded me to put it up here when he mentioned using it as a possible approach to help keep things cooler. Anyways, here you go: I did some playing around with Racer XX's info regarding the temp sensor quite some time ago - which is a thermistor - and discovered that the controller limits the pulse width to the motors to 88% (normally it allows 100% pulse width) when the motors reach about 140°F. This would have been awesome if it was an infinite range - but instead it's just that one cut. You either have 100% pulse width, 88% pulse width, or 0. If the motors should reach 150°-160°F, the controller cuts all power to the motors until they cool. So anyway it could be beneficial to use that with the Bühler motors to enhance reliability and almost eliminate heat fade with the stock cooling but they won't be nearly as strong. They might well run with a stock power supply though.
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if i get a new psu that still runs at 24v but higher amps to cope with the buhlers will the buhlers be stronger that the stock motors? or should i opt for more volts aswel? i only have a basic knoledge of what im doing (electronic wise) as am learning as i do things (have tried a couple of different motors already, psu is a new ball game to me), i understand what your saying but i can get lost in some of the terminology :P
 
I would recommend sticking with a power supply that's 24V if you are planning on upping the amperage. The motors will get very hot - quite probably to the point of demagnetization - if you go with higher voltage and don't limit the amperage. Many "fixed" voltage power supplies have a small adjustment range - a nominal 24V supply might be adjustable from say 20-27 volts.

The Bühler motors will definitely be stronger than the stock motors if you use a 24V supply with ~10A... but you'll need to cool the motors or you'll just get extreme heat fade unless you stick to one or two short races with cooldowns between any others. Or keep your FFB turned down. It really depends on the sim though. In iRacing I found I could race for quite some time with no issues, but GT5 seems to really build the heat.
 
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presidente001
I would compare with some motors RC brushed. Here in Brazil is very difficult to get quality electric motors. But it has many options for RC motors. What type of motor could use? RPM, Amper, etc.. etc.. would be approximately...

Thx my friend...
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Problem is there aren't any brushed motor's in the RC industry that 1 runs on 24v and 2 that meet the specs we are after.
 
mrbasher
The most likely place to find what could be a direct replacement would be an inkjet printer. Several HP's that I have torn apart have the motor, right down to the last number.
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Good idea, I did some googling....do you mean something like this?

Do you remember the part number, or can you look it up? The ones I linked (not sure which of the two listed might be the correct one) wouldn't be too expensive for getting a couple sets, maybe $50-ish. That price range could work for those who need drop-in replacements. Again, assuming they are the right ones. I'm not getting my hopes up, haha.

I also found this motor spec on this webpage. Any of you 'pros' come across that motor yet?


Jerome
 
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Also found this motor. Googling "C6409-60004" seems to come up with some good info for a change. But I have little experience with electricity besides building PC's, replacing light bulbs and a Chandelier once :lol:

If I'm reading this page right, it's listing all the HP models that use the "C6409-60004" motor.


Jerome
 
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Jerome, those motors you listed are all too small. I think I still have one of the ones I found - I'll check my motor stash and see if it has a part number.
 
Bummer, but I'm not surprised. These motors are pretty rare.


Jerome
 
OK, here we go...I retested this one just to make sure...the specs are all right there. 4000 RPM no-load, 2.5A stall, motor dimensions are identical. There's even one for sale on eBay now. Still not easy to find, but these should work...though they will almost certainly still fail just like the stock ones.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/QK1-1500-DC-Printer-or-Hobby-Motor-/221363893101

One on Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Canon-QK1-1500/dp/B00ATSCX7G/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1391543150&sr=1-1-fkmr1&keywords=mabuchi qk1-1500

One on eBay France:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Canon-MP-520-Moteur-QK1-1500-TN437709-Motor-/321080498455

Not sure what this place is but supposedly have 56 of them - site looks a little fishy though:

http://www.ic2snews.com/canon-qk11500-p-18199.html

One more here, looks like they were used in the IP and MP series:

http://xprinterparts.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=51

BTW, the printer was a Canon IP6600 - Found some other parts I forgot to throw out.
 
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Good work as always buddy 👍

Looks like this place has two motors available.


Jerome
 
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Yeah they're still pretty scarce though it seems. I'd rather get the Bühler motors any day - even if they aren't perfect, it's a pretty safe bet they won't stop working for a long time. If they can take a year of overheating, overvolting and general all around torture testing for over a year (which I definitely did) they are pretty bulletproof.
 
Noob question time. I was asked this by a friend of mine and I didn't know the answer.

Can you use the CSR Elite Rim on the CSW Base?

I would think yes, but I don't know.


Jerome
 
Probably could if you got the pinout and connected the right wires but the wheel won't just plug in. They don't share the same adapters. Not sure if the connector from the wheel to the board is compatible - I never bothered to check. There will be differences in the firmwares though since they have some different buttons... So I guess my answer is maybe, lol.
 

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