Ferrari before the World Motorsports Council

The problem with team orders, is that if you were a gambler and had money on Massa to with at Hockenhiem, you could have been sitting pretty. Until Rob comes over the radio and says to Massa, essentially, get out the way of Alonso and let him take the win.

Very bad decision on the World Motorsport Council.
 
The gambling example is rubbish anyway, you can gamble on BTCC if you really wanted, which allows team orders, and there is no problem.
Clearly, not very many people gamble on motorsport. :lol: If they did, they would surely be very infuriated to find their bet on the Wurz/Davidson Peugeot 908 car lost out due to team orders at Le Mans or whatever.

I don't really feel sorry for anyone who lost money gambling, though the point is fair enough - that the gamble is assuming a sporting contest, not a fixed pre-determined result.

I don't see how it can be different though, how can you possibly stop teams manipulating their drivers?

As a matter of interest - are there any other sports in the world which involve teams which also compete for individual championships (in other words, having a WCC and a WDC)? Is this something unique to motorsport? Off the top of my head I can't think of anything.
 
I keep banging on about how motorsport is not a individual sport, its a team sport. I think this applies here too, I wonder if people are simply assuming its all about the drivers and that all sporting rules should be designed around the individual. I also ask if those of you who dislike team orders in F1, also dislike it in the other forms of motorsport? Does anyone have a suggestion of how to solve the team orders problem?

There definitely needs to be some kind rule for race-fixing, but specific team orders rules are difficult to police. Maybe the FIA would be better off with a more broadly-defined rule which allows them to penalise any kind of race fixing, rather than just proof of team-orders?

I had a very intense argument with some buddies about this. I also have a question to ask. If it was the last race of the season and alonso had to win to clinch the title and massa was told to let him through, would any of you have complained? I doubt you would have because you would understand that ferrari spends an insane amount of money every year to get that car there and running just like everyone else in the field. Every team does. If it were any of the Teams in that situation they probably would have done the same thing.

There are about 2000 people who work for ferrari if not more, much like other teams they put a massive amount of work to be at a point where they can fight for the title. Alllll of them want to see their team win both championships. If that gets taken away only because there is a rule saying that leaders of a team can not tell their teammates what to do in certain situations is a bunch or crap and is actually a lie to the fans who watch the sport.

Have any of you seen Truth in 24 Audi's documentary about the 24 hours of le man. I suggest you watch it and pay attention to some of the calls that the team makes to support one car. Like taking one of their cars out of contention for the race win because that car was the last audi. They used it as a guinea pig to test out which tires were the best for their highest placed cars. That is an example of team orders but I never heard anyone complain about that situation before. It is considered normal. Why is formula one different?

I don't want anyone to think I am a huge ferrari fanboy. It is my favorite team but i understand when they do wrong. I HATE alonso. I have for many seasons now. So you can understand how disappointed I was when I found out that he was going to drive for ferrari. I was even more disappointed when he passed massa in the german gp. I really wanted massa to win being that it was the anniversary of his crash but I understand that Ferrari want to win both titles and if that requires one driver to be ahead of the other so be it. Even if that driver is alonso.
 
If team orders are permitted in the future, then hopefully teams won't be so blatant about it. The big thing that really killed Hockenheim and Austria 2002 and all those other case is the way Massa or Barrichello or whoever just gave up and moved over without a fight. If I were Felipe Massa at the time, I'd have taken the approach that if Alonso caught me, then I wouldn't fight too much. Feign an error or something, so that it at least looked like real racing.
 
Silly, silly decision. You make a rule, enforce it. I would not have liked to see Massa's points stripped for that race, but at the very least, stripping of constructor's points would have been fair.

This is the WMSC is saying: "We don't care to enforce the rule." $100,000 is a pittance in F1, and nobody would mind losing that much just to see their own man win the WDC. Everyone minds losing points.

The FIA should simply scrap team orders at this point. Or institute a "good boy" rule, where teams give code phrases like "sit", "heel" and "roll over" to drivers on when to let their team-mates past. :lol:

Last race alone we saw two violations (which I counted) that went unnoticed on race day :rolleyes:

I remember the Massa start line one, what was the other (at the risk of being OT... I really don't remember)?
 
Silly, silly decision. You make a rule, enforce it. I would not have liked to see Massa's points stripped for that race, but at the very least, stripping of constructor's points would have been fair.
Stripping driver points would have been fairer. Ferrari made the call to put Alonso in a better position in the championship. They would have gotten the same amount of constructors' points either way. Ferrari manipulated the race outcome to set their drivers up, so undoing that by stripping the drivers of their points would have been justice. Even if Massa was simply doing as he was told, he was an accessory to breaking the rules by intentionally manipulating the race outcome.
 
Yes, it would... but if the only reason they held back is so as not to affect the title race, then constructor's points would have been the way (same as with Mclaren back at SpyGate). That way you preserve the spectacle.

But then... if not points, another million dollars or so would have been nice.
 
I believe this decision is more about preserving Ferrari's shot at this year's world championship than about preserving the integrity of the rules.

I agree if it's the driver's championship. It seems like they did the same thing in 2008.
 
Although I don't like that a team has effectively got away with breaking a rule, I think the FIA are going the right way about it and should scrap the rule entirely.
Because they fail to enforce it? What's the point of making rules in the first place if nobody intends to follow them? :indiff:
 
The gambling example is rubbish anyway, you can gamble on BTCC if you really wanted, which allows team orders, and there is no problem.

Not saying that I do, but Formula 1 had a rule in place that was to stop team orders, so therefore IF a person had money on Massa, I can see why they would be right royally ****ed off at the World Motorsport Board for not enforcing the rule correctly.
 
Because they fail to enforce it? What's the point of making rules in the first place if nobody intends to follow them? :indiff:

Better yet, why create a rule which is so easy to set aside and walk around to begin with?
 
Better yet, why create a rule which is so easy to set aside and walk around to begin with?

Even still, despite the fact that it's so easy to get around, why even bother making it if all they're going to do is say "Oh, damn, well give us a few dollars and be on your way, we'll look into the rule. Sorry guys!"

I, quite obviously, disagree with this whole issue. I'm not going to say "Well what they SHOULD have done is blah blah blah" because that's not up to me. But letting Ferrari walk away with nothing is just.. wrong. What's the reasoning for the rules if they aren't going to be enforced?
 
Because they fail to enforce it? What's the point of making rules in the first place if nobody intends to follow them? :indiff:

Not saying that I do, but Formula 1 had a rule in place that was to stop team orders, so therefore IF a person had money on Massa, I can see why they would be right royally ****ed off at the World Motorsport Board for not enforcing the rule correctly.

Its an impossible rule though. How do you prove Massa didn't choose to let Alonso past? If Massa repeatedly claims otherwise, you have no evidence. The radio messages are not evidence either.
We all know it was a team order because of the implication and suggestion. But there is very little hard proof that there was a team order. Just a team suggestion.

Are we going to ban team suggestions? :lol: Then the teams will just tell the drivers before the race or come up with even more intricate coded messages. "The banana is better than the fox". :lol:

I haven't read or heard many people complaining because of the gambling side, its only being brought up as a point of race fixing.

I actually agree with Andrew Benson:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/andrewbenson/2010/09/courageous_fia_does_the_right.html

That team orders should just be made public knowledge, rather than attempting hide them and pretend they don't happen. This was how it was before 2002 and although naturally it annoyed people, no one felt the sport was a joke because of it - just annoyed at whichever team employed the team order.

Like I asked earlier - can anyone name a comparable sport which features teams that compete not only for a team championship but also for an individual championship? If they exist, what happens with regards to team orders in those sports?
 
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Not saying that I do, but Formula 1 had a rule in place that was to stop team orders, so therefore IF a person had money on Massa, I can see why they would be right royally ****ed off at the World Motorsport Board for not enforcing the rule correctly.

If they watched F1 enough, they would know there are team orders.
 
Just heard of the outcome and to be honest the got off pretty much scott free, and I am actually farely peed off,, makes a mockery of the sport.
 
...Like I asked earlier - can anyone name a comparable sport which features teams that compete not only for a team championship but also for an individual championship? If they exist, what happens with regards to team orders in those sports?

The only other sport I can think of that has a team and individual aspect to it is cycling. Now, there are lots of ways to tackle an argument about how that sport conducts itself...

As I said before, I find the result of the hearing fairly stomach churning. Without going over why I think it's wrong, it makes sense to try and understand what the reasoning behind it may be; we'll never truly know what that is.
 
The only other sport I can think of that has a team and individual aspect to it is cycling. Now, there are lots of ways to tackle an argument about how that sport conducts itself...

As I said before, I find the result of the hearing fairly stomach churning. Without going over why I think it's wrong, it makes sense to try and understand what the reasoning behind it may be; we'll never truly know what that is.

The reasoning is pretty clear to me - there is no evidence for the FIA to use legally against Ferrari and that the FIA have realised the team orders rule needs looking at, either to improve it or remove it.
I also today realised cycling is another example, now I don't follow cycling much at all, but I would be guessing a similar scenario happens? Its difficult to really have a morally-defined sport when you have two contrasting ideals (individual vs. team) in competition.

If you think about it, its quite mind-blowing to consider that team orders are for the benefit of a team but in a individualistic manner yet team orders prevent individual competition. So team orders are both about the individual and they are not, just as motorsport is about the individual (Drivers championship) but they are not (Constructors championship).

I have said this for a long time now and repeated it many times. Motorsport has always been predominately a team sport. The individual makes little difference to the results without the team. I think this has to be reflected in the regulations and I think it should be made clearer and more obvious to the public.
People often say the Drivers Championship matters more because its more public - people remember drivers champions, not constructors champions and therefore the sport is about the drivers, about the individuals. While true that the WDC is more public, its impossible to achieve the WDC without the team and the team therefore have a hand in whether a driver succeeds or fails in the WDC. Ok, to the public eye, they do not care about a team or corporation, they care about more human faces. The question is whether that is what the sport is about?

I think the public have grown to have the wrong idea about F1 and motorsport in general. I think motorsport is too often compared to individual sports, which people can understand from their own experiences. Its easier to understand sports like football, tennis, etc because these are easily accessable sports which most people grow up playing. Consequently, we grow up with the concept of the individual skill being important and competition being based on these skills, rather than necessarily a team-based dynamic.

Its also partly because of the whole controversey in the first place in 2002 and this team orders rule, which basically pretended team orders didn't happen after 2002. This either caused people to become more suspicious or fooled them into thinking there really were no team orders, therefore making it more and more unacceptable when it was believed team orders occured. I would argue that if that rule hadn't been put in place and teams were publicly displaying team orders, Hockenheim 2010 would barely have been mentioned beyond those afforementioned people who don't understand the team dynamic of the sport or those who feel the attention should be on the individual.

I must also add that I agree with those saying that team orders deny us sporting competition and entertainment - that, for example, we have been denied a possibly great battle between Massa and Alonso, Hill and Ralf, Hakkinen and Coulthard, and so on. But at the same time, I don't see how you can prevent the team taking measures to improve their chances of winning. I also think that usually most of these circumstances demand a bit of respect anyway from the other driver, in the case of Massa, he had effectively lost his chance to make his own WDC bid with his terrible season so far. Although its nice to think he should be allowed to decide whether he lets Alonso through or not, he's in denial if he thinks he could have turned it around quite dramatically. Were we denied a dramatic turn around by Massa? I think not.
The problem arises when the team decides such a thing, but then they were possibly wrong. Like, if Massa had gone and won the following races and Alonso had DNF'd.
I can't really decide in my mind whether its right or not. If I was Massa, of course I would be angry and would prefer to be able to race. But at the same time I understand the team's position and allowing the team to choose to make that decision and the subsequent benefits or mistakes.

I kind of enjoy the politics of it all too, for example, in the BTCC I can't imagine Onslow-Cole is too happy about Team Aon screwing up his chances at the title. Possibly the most backwards form of team orders I've ever seen.
 
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RE: Cycling: it's a team sport where each rider's pace relies heavily on his team-mates... a cycling team is like a flock of geese... slipstreaming each other for kilometers on end to ensure that at the end, at least one of them is in condition to make that mad dash for the finish.

Doesn't mean individuals can't shine, though.

-

Personally... it's unnecessary to have team orders in sports... whichever of your boys finishes ahead of the other, you'll still get the constructor's championship in the end. But then, we all know that the WDC is the one people look at and remember, and even if you can't have WCC because you don't have the fastest car, getting WDC out from under the nose of faster teams will be even more satisfying.

Having read all the statements and evidence, I quite agree... it's possibly impossible to prove or disprove team orders... and in that light, the rule should be junked as unenforceable.
 
whichever of your boys finishes ahead of the other, you'll still get the constructor's championship in the end.

If they finish
 
As long as neither of your guys is named Sebastian... :lol: (last one, I promise... he did pretty well this weekend...)
 
As of next year team orders are allowed. It's on the front of f1 fanatic. I can't link as I'm on my iPod.
 
I am not a fan of this. The FIA clearly want the teams to be up-front about using team orders rather than lying to everyone about them. They want the teams to weigh the benefit gained from using team orders against the inevitable negative reception they’ll receive. The problem is that a race win and keeping a championship alive will always outweigh bad press. Teams like Ferrari won’t care less about it.

But above all, giving teams a licence to use team orders contradicts the ethos of “improving the show”. Manipulating a race to suit your ends doesn’t improve anything. It only takes away.
 
I think Ferrari will be the only ones to use team orders next year anyways, it's just they won't have to lie about it.
 
They are being smug, It just says it's banned for 2011, which means it may come back for 2012 if things get ugly.

The 2011 season may expose every team's true colors, I will not accept Red Bull using team orders just because it's allowed now, that would be cheap and pathetic.
I hope it won't affect the races enough that we might aswell put a special livery color band on each wingman driver who is just racing to keep a position warm for his teammate.

I think all the schoolyard name calling, claims and accusations that occur tarnish the sport, hopefully there will be more stewards to watch over the race in 2011, then teams can be a lot more ice-like on the situation, a lot was missed. (But wasn't enough that it would have bogged down every race with penalties)
 
I think Ferrari will be the only ones to use team orders next year anyways, it's just they won't have to lie about it.


:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

I bet you believe religion is all love and compassion, too!
 
Red Bull, McLaren, Ferrari, Mercedes, will ALL definitely be using team orders next year.


But it's not going to get out of hand, like what people believe. Like, say Massa's in 1st at Bahrain, Alonso 2nd. Ferrari won't do it. But if it's 9 races into the championship, Alonso is higher in points to Massa, but Aonso is 50 pts away from champ leader. Massa 1st, Alonso 2nd. You know team orders will occur.

Same applies to any other team.
 
But above all, giving teams a licence to use team orders contradicts the ethos of “improving the show”. Manipulating a race to suit your ends doesn’t improve anything. It only takes away.

It improves the show because it gets rid of this silly idea that team orders never exist. No more rediculous outrages about some small use of team orders.

There is nothing to take away as there have always been team orders and in a sense, manipulated results. Its all about perception, if you watch the race and think Alonso was going to have a explosive fight with Massa, then yeah, you would probably feel something has been taken away. But if you watch it expecting and knowing team orders exist and will probably happen, nothing has been lost. This was the case before 2002....sure there were criticisms of team orders before that and whether its really "sporting" but nothing like the silly reactions we get now and personally I think people look at the sport the wrong way in that respect. I'll say it again - its not a sport about individuals.
 
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

I bet you believe religion is all love and compassion, too!

Ok I think I meant a little different then what I said, Ferrari will be the only one who will make it dissapointing. Red Bull or Mclaren will make their driver mess up at a turn and will probably allow the guy who moved over to keep the pressure up. It depends on what you think a team order is. Mclaren could have been accused of team orders in Turkey after Button had to stay behind Hamilton after hitting him.
 
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