Ferrari F10: no connection to reality?

[jucksmanBR]

I'm sorry if I'm off-topic, but I think this regars the tuning forum.

After a while running exclusively GT500 cars, I decided to give the Ferrari F10 a go.

I took it to monza for a practice session, then went to the setting menu to tune the car.
Being a former race driver, I have some experience with single seaters and even raced in monza in the late 90's.
When you set up a single seater race car for a track like monza, in real life you must:
1. Lower the car as much as possible without bottoming out at top speed
2. Give the car some 'rake' - i.e: make the front a little lower than the back - it helps with the aero setting
3. Stiffen the suspension as much as possible, while maintaining some 'go' to cope with the high curbs
4. Make 1st, 2nd and 3rd gear shorter, run longer 6th and 7th - the ideal is to have the engine about to 'cut out' just before the braking point of the longest straight.

That's not just me talking. It's the basic approach to racing in real life and in theory it would bring you to about 5-6 sec to the car's limit on the track, without any diff, camber, clutch biting point changes.

So here's what happened: I made a basic tune and took the car to track. It was undrivable!! Lowering the downforce by as little as 5 points would make the car spin on the straight if you went full throttle! There was no way to change car height at the settings menu, and the car doesn't respond anything like it should in the real world. It's like the laws of physics regarding inertia and aerodynamics don't apply to this car...

I've talked to my friend Luciano Burti (F1 driver for Prost GP and test driver for Ferrari for a number of years) and he agreed with me that this car makes no sense ingame and would never be able to race in real life at these settings...

Have any of you guys find 'strange' this kind of behaviour from the F10 (I haven't tested the F2007), or am I just being too picky and, as a former racer, expecting too much 'simulation' from this car?

And one more question: how many of you have found a workable tune with this car, that even resembles real life?

 

[dr_slump]

And one more question: how many of you have found a workable tune with this car, that even resembles real life?

Not many people have ever driven a F1 car in real.

 

[carracerptp]

I'm sorry if I'm off-topic, but I think this regars the tuning forum.

After a while running exclusively GT500 cars, I decided to give the Ferrari F10 a go.

I took it to monza for a practice session, then went to the setting menu to tune the car.
Being a former race driver, I have some experience with single seaters and even raced in monza in the late 90's.
When you set up a single seater race car for a track like monza, in real life you must:
1. Lower the car as much as possible without bottoming out at top speed
2. Give the car some 'rake' - i.e: make the front a little lower than the back - it helps with the aero setting
3. Stiffen the suspension as much as possible, while maintaining some 'go' to cope with the high curbs
4. Make 1st, 2nd and 3rd gear shorter, run longer 6th and 7th - the ideal is to have the engine about to 'cut out' just before the braking point of the longest straight.

That's not just me talking. It's the basic approach to racing in real life and in theory it would bring you to about 5-6 sec to the car's limit on the track, without any diff, camber, clutch biting point changes.

So here's what happened: I made a basic tune and took the car to track. It was undrivable!! Lowering the downforce by as little as 5 points would make the car spin on the straight if you went full throttle! There was no way to change car height at the settings menu, and the car doesn't respond anything like it should in the real world. It's like the laws of physics regarding inertia and aerodynamics don't apply to this car...

I've talked to my friend Luciano Burti (F1 driver for Prost GP and test driver for Ferrari for a number of years) and he agreed with me that this car makes no sense ingame and would never be able to race in real life at these settings...

Have any of you guys find 'strange' this kind of behaviour from the F10 (I haven't tested the F2007), or am I just being too picky and, as a former racer, expecting too much 'simulation' from this car?

And one more question: how many of you have found a workable tune with this car, that even resembles real life?

If your looking for the highest level of consumer "car simulation" I would suggest looking at PC games like IRacing.

In GT5 the tuning setting are way off base (Ride height, Camber, Toe, Transmission, Aero). I underlined the biggest offenders.

 

[GianDoe]

And one more question: how many of you have found a workable tune with this car, that even resembles real life?

I've been working on a F10 tune for a few weeks for the F10 championship. The default settings for the suspension are all wrong. As I'm sure you know, unlike most race cars, formula cars toe in the front suspension. At default the F10s are toed out to -50 on the fronts. Some of the guys in the league still run them slightly toed out but it's just one example of how the default tune is way off.

I will confirm though with some time tuning the suspension and gearbox to reflect their values in real life it's like driving a completely different car.

Edit: One thing I'm curious about from your comment is where you said you want the lower gears shorter and higher gears taller. Naturally the higher gears would be taller, of course. But since I get so much wheelspin in the lower gears I made them much taller than default and since the downforce is working against the car at higher speeds I made them shorter than default to aid acceleration. If I made the lower gears shorter than default I'd get even more wheelspin and if I made the higher gears taller than default it might not have the umph to overcome the downforce at high speed and won't reach its full top speed potential at that gearing. What am I missing?

 

[jucksmanBR]

I've been working on a F10 tune for a few weeks for the F10 championship. The default settings for the suspension are all wrong. As I'm sure you know, unlike most race cars, formula cars toe in the front suspension. At default the F10s are toed out to -50 on the fronts. Some of the guys in the league still run them slightly toed out but it's just one example of how the default tune is way off.

I will confirm though with some time tuning the suspension and gearbox to reflect their values in real life it's like driving a completely different car.

Edit: One thing I'm curious about from your comment is where you said you want the lower gears shorter and higher gears taller. Naturally the higher gears would be taller, of course. But since I get so much wheelspin in the lower gears I made them much taller than default and since the downforce is working against the car at higher speeds I made them shorter than default to aid acceleration. If I made the lower gears shorter than default I'd get even more wheelspin and if I made the higher gears taller than default it might not have the umph to overcome the downforce at high speed and won't reach its full top speed potential at that gearing. What am I missing?

An. F1 car'r differential is light years away from those encountered in ano other type of vehicle. In f1, the lower gears are used mostly to get you to the best gears as soon as posible. Wheelspin is minimized by alterind the clutch's biting point, something unavailable in gt5...

 

[GianDoe]

An. F1 car'r differential is light years away from those encountered in ano other type of vehicle. In f1, the lower gears are used mostly to get you to the best gears as soon as posible. Wheelspin is minimized by alterind the clutch's biting point, something unavailable in gt5...

Ahh makes sense. Regarding the differential... put it on 5, 5, 20 and see if that helps a bit. Should be a good starting point and then adjust to fit your style.

 

[Slash]

5 on intial will turn it off.

 

[GianDoe]

5 on intial will turn it off.

It should strangely turning initial to 5 and then adjusting the accel and brake still has an affect, so apparently not.

 

[dice1998]

Have any of you guys find 'strange' this kind of behaviour from the F10 (I haven't tested the F2007), or am I just being too picky and, as a former racer, expecting too much 'simulation' from this car?

It's not just open wheel racers. I feel GT5 physics (hardcore fanboys beware)is bassackwards compared to real life.

I also feel that some of the things the game simulates is very very basic..

And one more question: how many of you have found a workable tune with this car, that even resembles real life?

Honestly, I just keep my F2007 on the tune it was purchased with and max the front and rear downforce.

The fastest I've been on Monza (with chicanes) on this setup I use is about the mid 1:20's to the high 1:19's (Online, not Offline).

 

[jucksmanBR]

It's not just open wheel racers. I feel GT5 physics (hardcore fanboys beware)is bassackwards compared to real life.

I also feel that some of the things the game simulates is very very basic..



Honestly, I just keep my F2007 on the tune it was purchased with and max the front and rear downforce.

The fastest I've been on Monza (with chicanes) on this setup I use is about the mid 1:20's to the high 1:19's (Online, not Offline).

I did sometesting with the F10 this morning...with the default tune, I did 1:30 and with some very basic tuning my best lap was 1:25. I think I could easily shave 6 sec off this times by working on the transmission and really attacking the chicanes - I keep using my 'old' F3 braking points and It's costing me a ton of time...

 

[Slash]

It should strangely turning initial to 5 and then adjusting the accel and brake still has an affect, so apparently not.

Well 5 on initial will take a load of torque to get any effect from braking and accel. The higher intial the less torque it takes.

 

[GianDoe]

I did sometesting with the F10 this morning...with the default tune, I did 1:30 and with some very basic tuning my best lap was 1:25. I think I could easily shave 6 sec off this times by working on the transmission and really attacking the chicanes - I keep using my 'old' F3 braking points and It's costing me a ton of time...

We did a preseason race at daytona road course and the fastest time was mid 1:18s on low fuel in the F10. My fastest was 1:20:3 during the race, to give you an idea.

 

[GianDoe]

Well 5 on initial will take a load of torque to get any effect from braking and accel. The higher intial the less torque it takes.

Makes sense, I find it nearly undrivable if the LSD is any higher. Wants to snap around all the time.

 

[TomBrady]

I'm sorry if I'm off-topic, but I think this regars the tuning forum.

After a while running exclusively GT500 cars, I decided to give the Ferrari F10 a go.

I took it to monza for a practice session, then went to the setting menu to tune the car.
Being a former race driver, I have some experience with single seaters and even raced in monza in the late 90's.
When you set up a single seater race car for a track like monza, in real life you must:
1. Lower the car as much as possible without bottoming out at top speed
2. Give the car some 'rake' - i.e: make the front a little lower than the back - it helps with the aero setting
3. Stiffen the suspension as much as possible, while maintaining some 'go' to cope with the high curbs
4. Make 1st, 2nd and 3rd gear shorter, run longer 6th and 7th - the ideal is to have the engine about to 'cut out' just before the braking point of the longest straight.

That's not just me talking. It's the basic approach to racing in real life and in theory it would bring you to about 5-6 sec to the car's limit on the track, without any diff, camber, clutch biting point changes.

So here's what happened: I made a basic tune and took the car to track. It was undrivable!! Lowering the downforce by as little as 5 points would make the car spin on the straight if you went full throttle! There was no way to change car height at the settings menu, and the car doesn't respond anything like it should in the real world. It's like the laws of physics regarding inertia and aerodynamics don't apply to this car...

I've talked to my friend Luciano Burti (F1 driver for Prost GP and test driver for Ferrari for a number of years) and he agreed with me that this car makes no sense ingame and would never be able to race in real life at these settings...

Have any of you guys find 'strange' this kind of behaviour from the F10 (I haven't tested the F2007), or am I just being too picky and, as a former racer, expecting too much 'simulation' from this car?

And one more question: how many of you have found a workable tune with this car, that even resembles real life?

You should check out Ferrari Virtual Academy. It's made by the same people who made netKar Pro, and in case you haven't heard, netKar Pro is hands down the best simulator available today.

Iracing is also very good. It has a Williams FW31, and a Lotus 79. I have the Williams, it's a lot of fun and I think you'll also appreciate it literally has the exact tuning options that the real car has.

But Ferrari Virtual Academy is still more accurate. It has the ferrari F10, and either the current F1 or the 2011 ferrari F1. You can also get a Ferrari 458 GT2 car

 

[jucksmanBR]

You should check out Ferrari Virtual Academy. It's made by the same people who made netKar Pro, and in case you haven't heard, netKar Pro is hands down the best simulator available today.

Iracing is also very good. It has a Williams FW31, and a Lotus 79. I have the Williams, it's a lot of fun and I think you'll also appreciate it literally has the exact tuning options that the real car has.

But Ferrari Virtual Academy is still more accurate. It has the ferrari F10, and either the current F1 or the 2011 ferrari F1. You can also get a Ferrari 458 GT2 car

Thanks for the tip! I think I'll give ferrari virtual academy a try...

 

[Motor City Hami]

And one more question: how many of you have found a workable tune with this car, that even resembles real life?

I wouldn't say that the tunes that I have developed for the F10 are that far off from real life. In any racing, including real life, you adjust the car to the conditions. There is no magic single setup. These only exist for the 2nd tier racers who don't want to figure some things out for themselves. The set it and forget it crowd got their "magic setup" from one of the fast guys then never changed a thing. Meanwhile, the fast guy has discovered six new tweaks that made his car even faster.

GT5 is no different. I don't understand the hatred for the F1 cars. Just because you can't slam them to the ground and put the hardest springs on them to make them work, doesn't mean they can't be made fun to drive. These are just a little more work than the typical street car in GT5.

 

[jucksmanBR]

I wouldn't say that the tunes that I have developed for the F10 are that far off from real life. In any racing, including real life, you adjust the car to the conditions. There is no magic single setup. These only exist for the 2nd tier racers who don't want to figure some things out for themselves. The set it and forget it crowd got their "magic setup" from one of the fast guys then never changed a thing. Meanwhile, the fast guy has discovered six new tweaks that made his car even faster.

GT5 is no different. I don't understand the hatred for the F1 cars. Just because you can't slam them to the ground and put the hardest springs on them to make them work, doesn't mean they can't be made fun to drive. These are just a little more work than the typical street car in GT5.

I'm not saying that I don't like the F10, just that it's physics aren't what you would expect for a single-seater racing car. I've raced in Formula Opel and Formula 3, and my frustration was due to the fact that the F10 can't be setup like a proper race car in GT5. Instead, you have to make a compromise and work it inside GT5's twisted physics.
I find it weird to tune a F1 car like it was a GT, but it's something I'm having to get used to in order to really enjoy this car...